The Lost Years of Jesus

[loser]

It has remained a curious enigma (in the Christian world, at least) as to the whereabouts of Jesus from the age of twelve (when He abruptly disappears from scripture) to about the age of thirty (when His ministry begins). Scripture offers no explanation and no clues concerning these "missing years" of Jesus.

A program on National Geographic entitled "The Secret Lives of Jesus" mentions some (unverified) ancient texts of Tibet that chronicled the accounts of a foreign traveler (from Jerusalem) known as St. Issa. Supposedly, a Russian journalist and historian, Nicholas Notovitch, was shown these texts when he was forced to stay at a monastery after breaking his leg. Though he was met with incredulous disbelief, his story was seemingly confirmed by two others, Swami Abhedananda (an Indian guru) and Nicholas Roerich (a poet, author, lecturer, theatrical set and costume designer, explorer, archaeologist, anthropologist and painter).

What amuses me is that most people who hear this and believe this to be true assume that Jesus went to these mystic "holy men" to LEARN (Buddhism).

Nothing could be farther from the truth. Jesus did not travel to India and/or the Far East to learn, He went there to TEACH!

Here are a few of the quotes attributed to this wisest of men as revealed in Notovitch's book, "Life of St Issa”:

"Worship not the idols. Do not consider yourself first. Do not humiliate your neighbor. Help the poor. Sustain the feeble. Do evil to no one. Do not covet that which you do not possess and which is possessed by others."

"Well, perform for us a miracle," demanded the servitors of the Temple. Then Issa replied to them: "Miracles made their appearance from the very day when the world was created. He who cannot behold them is deprived of the greatest gift of life. But woe to you, enemies of men, woe unto you, if you await that He should attest his power by miracle."

"Not only shall you not make human offerings, but you must not slaughter animals, because all is given for the use of man. Do not steal the goods of others, because that would be usurpation from your near one. Do not cheat, that you may in turn not be cheated ....

"Beware, ye, who divert men from the true path and who fill the people with superstitions and prejudices, who blind the vision of the seeing ones, and who preach subservience to material things. "

As should be readily apparent, Jesus had no need of being taught by mere mortals. Instead, He came teaching...revealing knowledge from 'above'.

One objection that many critics have is the problem of logistics. However, with technologically advanced aircraft at His disposal, transportation for Jesus was NEVER a problem (read about Saul's confrontation with Jesus on the road to Damascus as recorded in Acts). It's my guess that Jesus visited EVERY civilization that existed upon the earth, from North and South America to England, Russia, China, Africa and, probably, even Australia.

It was a whirlwind tour with a message of love and hope for all of mankind.

Can you hear it?

[Jack]

revealing knowledge from 'above'

What, in your opinion, qualifies these sayings as wisdom "from above"?

It's interesting that when I tried to introduce this topic once here, it was met with little comment. From my own experience, most Christian churches don't have much of an idea what he was supposed to be doing during that time. The Mormons have stories in their doctrine about his travels, but they're pretty much alone is that. And I don't think their version would synch well with yours. I could be wrong on that, though.

[gw120]

According to Dogma, the definitive answer to all questions about religion, Jesus was so surprised when he found out he was God, he ran away for 18 years, or something like that.

[loser]

What, in your opinion, qualifies these sayings as wisdom "from above"?

Our thoughts are never our own. Our 'wisdom' or 'knowledge' is merely distillations of the thoughts of others that have gone before us. Since the way in which information is assimilated into our mental construct is as varied as are people, there can never be a consensus of all. Even objectivity is an illusion. Ideas and concepts that reaffirm our intellectual biases are accepted; those that counter or refute our beliefs are rejected or ignored. Even the greatest of minds are mere puppets to intelligence of a higher order...Puppet Masters waiting in the 'darkness' to pull the strings.

Because of the dual nature of life (responsible for all of the opposites such as hot/cold, good/evil, light/dark, positive/negative), mankind is pulled in two directions. For clarity's sake (or for the sake of confusion, whichever you prefer), we can designate them as 'up' and 'down'. The Bible calls them flesh and spirit and attributes them to Satan and God, respectively. Jesus rejected the pull of the flesh as offered by Satan (God's polar opposite) and was instead attuned to the spirit (emanating from God).

Ironically, even these two forces operate in diametrically opposite ways. The pull of the flesh (Satan's exertion) is FORCEFUL (aggressively pushed upon) yet FURTIVE (done in darkness). The spirit of God is UNOBTRUSIVE (gently pulls or draws) yet CONSPICUOUS (done in the light).

"From above" refers to this connection with God. He is not some ethereal (meaning intangible or insubstantial) non-reality. He is a substantive, viable reality.

Of course, this is highly debatable as reality is extremely subjective.

I have a lot of affinity with ALL of the 'heretical' or 'cultist' religions, such as the Mormons, the Jehovah Witnesses, the United Pentecostals, the Worldwide Church of God (especially Herbert Armstrong), and others. I have found, to my incredible horror, that more truth is found in these fringe religions than in the main body of Christianity. Of course, since scripture says that Satan deceives the WHOLE WORLD, this should be expected.

God, like the Marines, is only looking for a FEW GOOD MEN (for now).

Later, EVERYONE (the faithless, symbolized by doubting Thomas) will get their chance to meet Him in PERSON.

Hell, a place of eternal torment for a multitude of sinners, is just another of the many deceptions foisted upon an unsuspecting Christian community designed to turn the rest (non-Christians) against God.

[Steve Johnson]

The exact monastery where Nicholas Notovitch gleaned information on Jesus' whereabouts between the ages of 12 and 30 is known so why haven't the numerous scholars investigated his staggering claims??
There is nothing wrong with Jesus traveling to India. He had to pass through normal human experiences such as learning to walk and talk. He was not born with the instant ability to walk, talk, read and write. He had to learn these skills. He had to learn about his culture and other cultures. He had the potential to be the Christ because of His unique personality but it was by no means a foregone conclusion. He had to earn the prize of Christhood. It was a struggle
and yet against all odds He reached the zenith; He became the Christ. God Almighty
recognized his unique achievement by speaking from the heavens acknowledging
Jesus as the Christ in the Transfiguration. He "rubber stamped" the endorsement by raising Him from death. So there you have it! Jesus walked on a journey that transformed him from humble student to tenacious teacher to the Meek Messiah. It is possible that He traveled to India. Afterall He wanted all peoples to hear the Good News. Yet what I am after are
hard facts. The scholars must ascertain whether Notovitch's Issa is Jesus of the canonical gospels or another person altogether or even nothing but a ruse!!

[Rogue Cardinal]

Quote by: Steve Johnson The exact monastery where Nicholas Notovitch gleaned information on Jesus' whereabouts between the ages of 12 and 30 is known so why haven't the numerous scholars investigated his staggering claims?? There is nothing wrong with Jesus traveling to India. He had to pass through normal human experiences such as learning to walk and talk. He was not born with the instant ability to walk, talk, read and write. He had to learn these skills. He had to learn about his culture and other cultures. He had the potential to be the Christ because of His unique personality but it was by no means a foregone conclusion. He had to earn the prize of Christhood. It was a struggle and yet against all odds He reached the zenith; He became the Christ. God Almighty recognized his unique achievement by speaking from the heavens acknowledging Jesus as the Christ in the Transfiguration. He "rubber stamped" the endorsement by raising Him from death. So there you have it! Jesus walked on a journey that transformed him from humble student to tenacious teacher to the Meek Messiah. It is possible that He traveled to India. Afterall He wanted all peoples to hear the Good News. Yet what I am after are hard facts. The scholars must ascertain whether Notovitch's Issa is Jesus of the canonical gospels or another person altogether or even nothing but a ruse!!

Christians fear that Jesus might have been influenced by Buddhism. That would further make the case the when it comes to religions we are always feed something borrowed something blue something old something new.

Could you imagine the horror of Christians everywhere that know nothing of Buddhism and it's similarities to there Jesus' message?

Jesus had to learn how to be a man. There were lots of thoughts on how to do this....there still are. But Buddhism is really good stuff, and there would be nothing wrong IMO with Jesus taking form that religion and giving to the people a new sense of compassion and love. God knows those Christians need it.

If you would like a GREAT fictional piece of literature that will not only crack you up but stay really true to the Christian notion of Jesus, Christopher Moore has an ingenious book called "Lamb-The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal"
It's truly an excellent book that covers exactly what you guys are talk about....those missing years. It'sabout what it might have been like to know you were God's son and try to figure out how to be the Savior to the world. It has him finding the wisemen that were at his birth and learning lots of wide things from them. It has him going to China to learn martial arts and discipline.......where of course JEsus invents Jewdo.....a way of fighting without hurting someone. Just funny little things like that. Like I said it's purely fiction...but it's a great read.

There are also tons of Gnostic things in the Nag hammadi library that have things that give Christians the willies.

[Rog]

Quote by: Steve Johnson The exact monastery where Nicholas Notovitch gleaned information on Jesus' whereabouts between the ages of 12 and 30 is known so why haven't the numerous scholars investigated his staggering claims?? There is nothing wrong with Jesus traveling to India. He had to pass through normal human experiences such as learning to walk and talk. He was not born with the instant ability to walk, talk, read and write. He had to learn these skills. He had to learn about his culture and other cultures. He had the potential to be the Christ because of His unique personality but it was by no means a foregone conclusion. He had to earn the prize of Christhood. It was a struggle and yet against all odds He reached the zenith; He became the Christ. God Almighty recognized his unique achievement by speaking from the heavens acknowledging Jesus as the Christ in the Transfiguration. He "rubber stamped" the endorsement by raising Him from death. So there you have it! Jesus walked on a journey that transformed him from humble student to tenacious teacher to the Meek Messiah. It is possible that He traveled to India. Afterall He wanted all peoples to hear the Good News. Yet what I am after are hard facts. The scholars must ascertain whether Notovitch's Issa is Jesus of the canonical gospels or another person altogether or even nothing but a ruse!!

that would mean, Jesus was just some guy chosen to be the son of God, which is not the case, Jesus being God, we would already know the message, he would not need to learn it.

[Rogue Cardinal]

Quote by: Rog that would mean, Jesus was just some guy chosen to be the son of God, which is not the case, Jesus being God, we would already know the message, he would not need to learn it.

That's not necessarily true. Christians mistakenly think that God is omnipotent and omniscient. It's a complete case of mistranslation. God can only know what God can know.

Jesus probably didn't realize he was a savior till he was older and then he had to struggle with what that meant and how to be that person.

[Rog]

Quote by: Rogue Cardinal Jesus probably didn't realize he was a savior till he was older and then he had to struggle with what that meant and how to be that person.

maybe you are right, i dont know. I don't think anyone knows.

[Jack]

Presuming for a moment that Jesus actually existed, it makes sense that the gospel writers had nothing to say about his youth and early adulthood. To support their contention that he was the savior foretold in the Old Testament only his birth and death needed to be described. There is nothing about the period in between that was prophesied, so why bother writing about it?

[Steve Johnson]

There is no doubt that Jesus is not God.
Proof of this was when the apostles asked him when He would return ( Second Coming). He replied that only God knew the answer. If He was God He would have known!! It is ridiculous and confusing for the church fathers to have insisted that Jesus is God when He clearly is not. In Jesus' composition the " Our Father " - a work of superb poetry- Jesus appealed to God the Father. He was not appealing to himself.
God is the Creator. Jesus is the Christ. There is only one God and it is God that conferred Christhood on Jesus. God even referred to Jesus as His Son in the Transfiguration. Humanity should not confuse everyone by insisting that Jesus is God. The facts speak for themselves.
The lost years of Jesus is important because this is the man that God called His Son. This is the man who God raised from death. Scholars without fear or prejudice should investigate the 18 lost years. I am certain that the answers exist. It is simply
a question of finding them. Anyone who claims to be a believer in the Christ should ascertain what happened to the Saviour in the 18 important years that saw him progress from boy to man.

[rez]

Quote by: loser It has remained a curious enigma (in the Christian world, at least) as to the whereabouts of Jesus from the age of twelve (when He abruptly disappears from scripture) to about the age of thirty (when His ministry begins). Scripture offers no explanation and no clues concerning these "missing years" of Jesus.

I think many people are curious about Jesus Christ. A man who could raise the dead, turn water into whine, and walk on water is very powerful.

I wonder though, how curious can one be about Jesus Christ? Do you think we could find every little detail about him? Were there accounts of him written by other people?

A program on National Geographic entitled "The Secret Lives of Jesus" mentions some (unverified) ancient texts of Tibet that chronicled the accounts of a foreign traveler (from Jerusalem) known as St. Issa.

What is unverified? Like do the text actually exist or are they made up? Do you mean experts have not actually studied the text?

Here are a few of the quotes attributed to this wisest of men as revealed in Notovitch's book, "Life of St Issa”: "Worship not the idols. Do not consider yourself first. Do not humiliate your neighbor. Help the poor. Sustain the feeble. Do evil to no one. Do not covet that which you do not possess and which is possessed by others."

Could you perhaps explain what was wise about these things?

One objection that many critics have is the problem of logistics. However, with technologically advanced aircraft at His disposal, transportation for Jesus was NEVER a problem (read about Saul's confrontation with Jesus on the road to Damascus as recorded in Acts). It's my guess that Jesus visited EVERY civilization that existed upon the earth, from North and South America to England, Russia, China, Africa and, probably, even Australia. It was a whirlwind tour with a message of love and hope for all of mankind. Can you hear it?

What makes you think Jesus had an aircraft and his disposal? Why only "probably" Australia?


P.S. How come you did not set up this topic as an actual debate? Like for instance, What are we debating?

Are you just teaching us? Spreading the word of your god?

Could you perhaps express your views on teaching? Do you think teaching only includes sharing and passing down information or do you think there is more to teaching?

Sometimes people are curious about certain pieces of information. Do you think it is a sin if some people want to dig deeper into the information you provide? Do you think there should be a limit to how deep someone can dig?

[wyoguy]

Quote by: Steve Johnson There is no doubt that Jesus is not God. Proof of this was when the apostles asked him when He would return ( Second Coming). He replied that only God knew the answer. If He was God He would have known!! It is ridiculous and confusing for the church fathers to have insisted that Jesus is God when He clearly is not. In Jesus' composition the " Our Father " - a work of superb poetry- Jesus appealed to God the Father. He was not appealing to himself. God is the Creator. Jesus is the Christ. There is only one God and it is God that conferred Christhood on Jesus. God even referred to Jesus as His Son in the Transfiguration. Humanity should not confuse everyone by insisting that Jesus is God. The facts speak for themselves. The lost years of Jesus is important because this is the man that God called His Son. This is the man who God raised from death. Scholars without fear or prejudice should investigate the 18 lost years. I am certain that the answers exist. It is simply a question of finding them. Anyone who claims to be a believer in the Christ should ascertain what happened to the Saviour in the 18 important years that saw him progress from boy to man.

Okay... if Jesus isn't God, why would He tell His disciples to baptize the nations in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Why would He refer to Himself as 'I AM' in the book of John, a name that God told Moses at the burning bush, provoking Jesus' Jewish audience to pick up stones to put Him to death for blasphemy?

For that matter, what are you basing your own salvation on? The three persons in the triune Godhead are integral throughout the New Testament, the person and work of the Son being center stage.

You have the air of a Jehovah's Witness about you, sir.

[Rogue Cardinal]

Quote by: Rog maybe you are right, i dont know. I don't think anyone knows.

I couldn't tell you......it's not something that is important really when one is pondering the magnitude of Jesus. It comes down to he is or he isn't and his childhood doesn't matter to most as it has nothing to do with his ministry.

[loser]

Okay... if Jesus isn't God, why would He tell His disciples to baptize the nations in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Why would He refer to Himself as 'I AM' in the book of John, a name that God told Moses at the burning bush, provoking Jesus' Jewish audience to pick up stones to put Him to death for blasphemy? For that matter, what are you basing your own salvation on? The three persons in the triune Godhead are integral throughout the New Testament, the person and work of the Son being center stage. You have the air of a Jehovah's Witness about you, sir.

What do you have against Jehovah's Witness? Do you believe that ALL of their beliefs are wrong and ALL of mainstream religions' beliefs are right?

The sad truth is that the JW's have more accurate knowledge concerning God and Christ than mainstream religion does. You rail against you know not what.

There is no triune God...that is a deception of Satan designed to turn worship of God aside. Show me one verse where Jesus told His followers to worship Him.

If Jesus was God, why did He tell his disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost?

You've got it backwards! You quoted Matt. 28:19. Let's look at 28:18:

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Who gave Him "all power"? If Jesus was God then there must be someone greater than God giving Him power. Is that what you think? It's what the devil would like everyone to think! Another for you:

Luk 4:5 Then the devil led Jesus up to a high place and quickly showed him all the nations on earth.
Luk 4:6 The devil said, "I will give all this power and glory to you. It has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to.
Luk 4:7 Just worship me, and you can have it all."

Who gave the devil "all this power and glory" so that he could offer to give it to Jesus? Isn't it God that has all power and glory and can give it to whoever He wants? Can you not see the powerful relevance in this verse? If God gave that power to Satan, how is it that Satan didn't recognize Jesus as God?

There are literally hundreds of verses showing that Jesus is NOT God but is the SON of God...a very big distinction.

If you would read your Bible, you would see that this is so.

Steve Johnson is correct, Jesus is NOT God.

This being said, however, Jesus is the Messiah and Savior of the world.

[Darebirth]

Quote by: loser One objection that many critics have is the problem of logistics. However, with technologically advanced aircraft at His disposal, transportation for Jesus was NEVER a problem (read about Saul's confrontation with Jesus on the road to Damascus as recorded in Acts).

I'm sorry if the Bible I'm using is different from yours (Because I come from a Catholic background). The quote I think you meant by the way is Acts 9: . Saul's confrontation with "Jesus" (his name is never actually used in the quote) had nothing to do with advanced "aircraft". It said that Saul saw a light in the air and then he fell to his knees blind.

First of all, this is a spiritual vision. It has nothing to do with the methods of travel of a man who wasn't even alive at the time. Second of all, there is no aircraft mentioned in this passage at all (unless of course you think that Jesus flew around the world in a ball of light).

Quote by: loser It's my guess that Jesus visited EVERY civilization that existed upon the earth, from North and South America to England, Russia, China, Africa and, probably, even Australia.

Wow... Okay, let's say that Jesus had some kind of "advanced aircraft" (Please specify what that is) and he could travel around the world. How was he going to go about teaching these people who spoke hundreds of different languages? How did he even know about North/South America when the Vikings (or Christopher Colombus if you so prefer) hadn't even arrived until over a thousand years later?

Now I have seen you get quite angry with me in the past. You have to understand that I'm not trying to refute you I am simply inquiring as to your worldview. You see, the story that the Bible tells seems silly enough to me already, so when people come in and try to fill in the gaps that even the Bible doesn't tell (The MIssing Years of Jesus) it seems even more far-fetched.

[wyoguy]

No Loser, you and Steve are greatly mistaken and are spreading a different Gospel. I don't even care anymore about how much amusement this provides for the atheists.

I don't have any respect for the Jehovah's Witnesses at all and very little for mainstream Christianity as a whole. I'm a Calvinist, and between the mis-information spread by the likes of you and Steve, and the anti-nomianism practiced by the liberal mainstream, it's no wonder that atheists laugh.

Now that the gloves are off... if Christ was merely human, what then of the virgin birth? Have the JWs gotten around to re-writing that part yet?

[Rogue Cardinal]

Quote by: wyoguy Now that the gloves are off... if Christ was merely human, what then of the virgin birth? Have the JWs gotten around to re-writing that part yet?

I would hope that by virgin birth you are refering to the mistranslation of the word "alma" Which means young woman of the marrying age. It CAN be virgin....but in the Bible when referring to a woman that has never had intercourse the Jews used a different word. I was just discussing htis with a friend the other day tha thas a peice of software that takes any version of the bible and you can take a word and study it's use instantly in the entire Bbile.

I would also point out that the Jewish tradition.....which predates yours.....tells us that the Messiah CAN be born in any generation. Any young woman could feesibly be the mother of the Messiah. It also states that the Messiah WILL NOT be a God but a MAN. Thus if your wife was a young chick....you could POTENTIALLY be the father of the Messiah.

Ergo.....the Messiah as understood even by ancient Jewish tradition as well as today.....Jesus couldnt' have been the Messiah. There is a lot more to this....bu tI think it's enough for now.

[wyoguy]

What total crap. Ask the Talmudic Pharisees that laid that steaming pile of feces on you if Rebekah (also referred to as alma) was chaste before hooking up with the father of Israel. Alma only changed it's meaning when the 1st century Jews were trying to defame the Christians. Look that up.

[Near]

Nothing could be farther from the truth. Jesus did not travel to India and/or the Far East to learn, He went there to TEACH!

How can you teach something that is already there?
:)