Prejudice against the religious

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: ZNFYRH I agree with Scribbler, and that's the point I was making above.

I see.

Yes, you and he are right.

[ZNFYRH]

I'd think that if you invite someone to discuss their religious beliefs and then proceed to insult them, you have committed the greater wrong against your fellow man.

They felt they could trust you with their faith... they weren't trying to convert you... and you proceeded to insult them for it. If you catch yourself doing that, that's what you need to avoid.

Otherwise, I think they get one strike, and then you can let 'er rip.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: ZNFYRH I'd think that if you invite someone to discuss their religious beliefs and then proceed to insult them, you have committed the greater wrong against your fellow man. They felt they could trust you with their faith... they weren't trying to convert you... and you proceeded to insult them for it. If you catch yourself doing that, that's what you need to avoid. Otherwise, I think they get one strike, and then you can let 'er rip.

Fair enough.

But, what I should not do, and what I am prone to doing, is:

They mutter "Oh, thank the lord."

Then I think to myself: "Aw jeez, another religious nut" and proceed to think of them that way until they prove themselves otherwise.

[ZNFYRH]

I guess then it just depends on what it is for which they are thanking the Lord.

Are they thanking them for curing little Timmy's cancer when Timmy was in the hospital for 2 years getting cutting edge therapy?

My mother puts it this way... she thanks God for the technology and persistence of the doctors that made it possible for her to recover.

Kinda like thanking God for making a way out that we had to find for ourselves.

[Captain Chaos]

My mother in law possesses very liberal religious beliefs. Nothing at all offensive about her brand of Christianity.

However, she has this one particularly irrational belief that just drives me nuts.

A typical conversation between us goes like this:

Her: I will pray for him to get better
Me: Do you believe that praying will increase the odds that God will intervene oh his behalf?
Her: Yes
Me: So, then, God is less likely to intervene if you don't pray for him?
Her: Well, now, I didn't say that.
Me: Look, if God is more like to intervene after prayer, then he is less likely to intervene before prayer. This is simple. If A is greater than B, then B is less than A.
Her: You really can't apply math to things like prayer and God.


I cannot tell you how much such vacuous reasoning bugs the unholy crap out of me.

I love her, I like her, and I appreciate the help she gives us in getting my daughter to and from school.

But I despise insane reasoning.

[5010]

Sounds like she wants to appease God to gain favor but doesn't want to disclose the favoritism for fear of losing God's favor over bad PR.

Putting a higher value on logic than political strategy: academic > practical

[brien]

But I despise insane reasoning.

One can not apply reasoning to matters of faith in religion. I respect people for what they may have faith in, even religion. I am not a Sunday man, nor am I very religious in my demeanor at all, so I feel it is out of respect for my fellow human beings that I not attempt to destroy their faith in religion or God.

One person's beliefs can not trump another's when it comes to faith in religion. ie, a atheists disbelief in God is not any more valuable than the theists belief in God because God's existence can't be proved either way. When the Fundamentalists Christians get under your skin, be satisfied that they have the right under the Constitution to practice their religion without interference from the government. I may not agree with them, but they have every right to practice their religion according to the protection afforded to them under 1st Amendment.

[Jack]

God's existence can't be proved either way

It doesn't have to be. The only proof that matters is that which supports the contention gods exist. Until that proof is forthcoming, there's no reason to think that the concept of gods is anything but a fantasy.

[brien]

Until that proof is forthcoming, there's no reason to think that the concept of gods is anything but a fantasy.

Yes, but does this give the non believer license to say their non belief is any more valid that the believer's? Since God can't be proved either way, one viewpoint is no more valid than the other.

Let's apply the same logic to belief in aleins from other galaxies. Some believe and some do not. There is no proof either way. So does this give the non believer's viewpoint any more validity because there is no proof they exist? I don't thnk so because it only suggests we have no proof, not that aliens do not exist. Perhaps the proof will not be discovered for another 100, 1000 or even 10,000 years. It only means we have no proof not that aliens do not exist. Perhaps they have a way to become invisble to the human eye, or perhaps they wander around in the 4th and 5th dimensions, if they exist. No proof simply means no proof.

Let's consider gravity and Newton.The earth has always been subject to gravitational forces but man never proved it until Newton came along. Did that mean gravity was a fantasy and did not exist before Newton proved it? Of course not. It only meant man couldn't prove gravity existed before Newton proved it. So why can't one apply this to the existence of God?

[Mr.Vicchio]

So CC, basically you are bigot who hates people that believe in God?


At least you are open enough to admit it.

[brien]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio So CC, basically you are bigot who hates people that believe in God? At least you are open enough to admit it.

I think he is basically arguing this but limiting it to Right Wing Fundamentalists. He can't justify not including the Left Wing Religious nuts and/or the Catholics who have the same positions on gay and lesbian matters and also on abortion as well. So, I think you may be correct in your statement because CC merely deny's the Catholics and some on the Left should be included as well. He prefers to limit his venon to the sterotypical Right WIng Religious Fundamentalist, who by the way, were visited recently by O'Bama anbd Hillary. Interesting indeed.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio So CC, basically you are bigot who hates people that believe in God? At least you are open enough to admit it.

No, and you are not that dumb. Are you?

I believe in God, for one thing.


So, try again. Read a little more closely, next time.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: brien I think he is basically arguing this but limiting it to Right Wing Fundamentalists. He can't justify not including the Left Wing Religious nuts and/or the Catholics who have the same positions on gay and lesbian matters and also on abortion as well. So, I think you may be correct in your statement because CC merely deny's the Catholics and some on the Left should be included as well. He prefers to limit his venon to the sterotypical Right WIng Religious Fundamentalist, who by the way, were visited recently by O'Bama anbd Hillary. Interesting indeed.

You have no clue what you are talking about.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Brien He can't justify not including the Left Wing Religious nuts and/or the Catholics who have the same positions on gay and lesbian matters and also on abortion as well.

That is a different thread.

I started this thread as a means of admitting to a personal fault, and to get opinions on to handle it.

So, I think you may be correct in your statement because CC merely deny's the Catholics and some on the Left should be included as well.

Again, this is not the religious nut voting thread.
I possess a bias against the folks you list here as well.

And, as I have admitted from the start of this thread, it is a bias I need to work through.

He prefers to limit his venon to the sterotypical Right WIng Religious Fundamentalist, who by the way, were visited recently by O'Bama anbd Hillary. Interesting indeed.

There is not a whole lot of venom in this thread.


Is this really the best you can do?

[brien]

Quote by: Captain Chaos You have no clue what you are talking about.

Then perhaps you don't state your case very well because that makes two of us in the last few posts.

Do you have a clue of what you mean here?

And, as I have admitted from the start of this thread, it is a bias I need to work through

Ok. Good luck.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Brien One can not apply reasoning to matters of faith in religion.

Yes, one can.

so I feel it is out of respect for my fellow human beings that I not attempt to destroy their faith in religion or God.

The discussion with my mother in law that I was referencing had nothing to do with destroying her faith. It was exhibiting my frustration with the idea that a simple concept like: if A>B then B<A was something she was unwilling to apply to God.

I may not agree with them, but they have every right to practice their religion according to the protection afforded to them under 1st Amendment.

Yes, they do. And you and I have the right to disagree with them.


But, in this thread, I am not attacking them.

I am attempting to work through my unfair bias against all religious people, fundamentalist or not.

[brien]

Quote by: Captain Chaos But, in this thread, I am not attacking them. I am attempting to work through my unfair bias against all religious people, fundamentalist or not.

Yes you are attacking them in your OP.

I have to confess to a fair amount of bias against religious people. They just often don't seem very bright to me

Ypou are sayiong people who have religion aren't very bright. Attack and unfounded as well. Any statistics to back up your linkage of people who are religious aren't very bright?

There are enough smart religious people for it to be worth the effort of my giving religious people the benefit of the doubt.

But, I resent the influence that religious zealots have on society

Now does the above include Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton? Do you have any proof that Religious zealots have any influence on society? What kind of influence are you pointing to here?

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Brien Yes you are attacking them in your OP.

not really

Ypou are sayiong people who have religion aren't very bright.

No, I am saying they often do not seem bright to me. Pay attention to the details, they matter.

Any statistics to back up your linkage of people who are religious aren't very bright?

See, Brien, if you would pay attention to the details, you would not be so prone to misrepresenting what I am saying. Are you doing this on purpose?

I said they often do not seem bright to me. This is a statement reflecting personal observation.

Do you get that? Do you understand that, if I brought in statistics, it would not be relevant to what I said?

I think your thinking is too rigid.

Now does the above include Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton?

sure

When I said that, however, I was thinking more of day-to-day life, non-famous people, not religious leaders.

Do you have any proof that Religious zealots have any influence on society?

Alcohol sales on Sunday are illegal in Georgia. Vibrators are illegal in Georgia. My neighbors just assume that I would want them to preach the Gospel to my little one while at a party.

What exactly do you need, to believe that religious zealots have an influence in our culture?

[brien]

What is your opinion on religious folk?

I find most religious folks run the same spectrum as non religious folks. I find some very kind and others are morally bankrupt. Religion has nothing to do with intelligence and I would be very interested to see any statistics on the correlation between religious beliefs and intelligence. Stereotyping people because they are religious is as wrong as stereotyping people because of their skin color or nationality.

In fact, it is my personal experience, that I find that children educated in Catholic schools to be more intelligent as a group than government schooled children. But I can't make the leap to say all religious Catholic school kids are more intelligent than government schooled kids.

CC stated that he thought religious people were less intelligent than non religious people. This certainly takes a leap of faith, no pun intended, to agree with the statement. I certainly don't agree.

[brien]

Alcohol sales on Sunday are illegal in Georgia. Vibrators are illegal in Georgia. My neighbors just assume that I would want them to preach the Gospel to my little one while at a party. What exactly do you need, to believe that religious zealots have an influence in our culture?

I want to see proof postive that it is the Religious Zealots who are responsibile for what you have stated above. I am not saying you are incorrect, just asking to see the proof for your attributions above.

Connecticut has a ban on Sunday Sales of Alcohol but I don't see any proof it is because of religious zealots.

I will acknowkledge there has been in the history of the US a religious influence in the government and society, but in modern day society, that which has been carried through is being eliminated not increased as I though you were advocating here.