Religion the tool...

[Strange Dreamer]

If religion is merely a tool to be used by people through it's guidlines and stories, then I pose the following question that seems to get danced around quite a bit in debates.

Say that religion is like a hammer. It's a very versital tool that can be put to many uses.

Why do we insist on using it to bash each other in the head instead of simply trying to build something useful with it?

[Zhavric]

Bad analogy.

Religions are like corporations. Their primary interest is to accumulate wealth (partially in money, but mostly in influence / number of believers).

[phoenix_fire]

Alphonse: (Outside the door, watching them) Great, Ed. Push your total cynicism on someone else.

[Fangrim]

Quote by: Strange Dreamer If religion is merely a tool to be used by people through it's guidlines and stories, then I pose the following question that seems to get danced around quite a bit in debates. Say that religion is like a hammer. It's a very versital tool that can be put to many uses. Why do we insist on using it to bash each other in the head instead of simply trying to build something useful with it?

Because each religious group is competing with the other to build the most bad-ass building in the universe. What do you think they do to get a leg up?

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Strange Dreamer If religion is merely a tool to be used by people through it's guidlines and stories, then I pose the following question that seems to get danced around quite a bit in debates. Say that religion is like a hammer. It's a very versital tool that can be put to many uses. Why do we insist on using it to bash each other in the head instead of simply trying to build something useful with it?

the Baha'i Faith believes it is time, past time, to use the hammer to build bridges instead of bashing peoples heads in.

[atheist]

another analogy: Or...it's like an RPG. You even have a hierarchy of beings, cute little priests/messengers from the higher ups, fantastical beasts, protagonists, antagonists, peons, guilds, and a life-defining quest that determines your position in the game's overall world. You have 'safehouses' and even places you can go to to test your strenghts/weaknesses (resist temptation!).

It's kind of cute.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: atheist another analogy: Or...it's like an RPG. You even have a hierarchy of beings, cute little priests/messengers from the higher ups, fantastical beasts, protagonists, antagonists, peons, guilds, and a life-defining quest that determines your position in the game's overall world. You have 'safehouses' and even places you can go to to test your strenghts/weaknesses (resist temptation!). It's kind of cute.

Cute?

While I can see your analogy, I can think of few things more disturbing than gamers (the faithful) who've convinced themselves some people are "orcs" and all they're good for is killing for experience points.

[5010]

Quote by: Strange Dreamer Why do we insist on using it to bash each other in the head instead of simply trying to build something useful with it?

Interesting stuff from USA here:

On average, religious people are far more generous than secularists with their time and money.

A religious person is 57% more likely than a secularist to help a homeless person.

And some info from Great Britain:

Bystanders
30% of the adults of Great Britain are bystanders
(give less than £5 to charity per year, most of whom give nothing)

Contributors
58% are contributors
(give between £5 and £120 to charity per year.)
Nearly two-thirds give less often than once a month.
They are also far more likely to give donations when asked than to give by direct debit.
Only a quarter of them give to charity by direct-debit.

Investors
12% are investors
(give £120 or more to charity per year)
Nearly a quarter of them give over £500 to charity per year.
Over three-quarters give at least once a month.
Over a quarter at least once a week.
These committed givers are often:
o Those over 35 years of age
o Those who are higher-educated
o Those who adhere to a religion and attend church
o Those with an income over £56k per annum
o Those who identify with a main political party
o Those who read a daily broadsheet newspaper

[Gods_Mercenary]

Humans tend to use everything to bash each other over the heads.

[atheist]

Quote by: 5010 Interesting stuff from USA here: On average, religious people are far more generous than secularists with their time and money. A religious person is 57% more likely than a secularist to help a homeless person.

Those statistics aren't gold standard. Statistics can be manipulated or influenced by certain events. For example, I looked up the "2001 America gives survey" (a source indicated by the website)...guess what the FULL/actual title of the article was?
America Gives: A Survey of Americans’ Generosity After September 11
After 9/11 of course you're gonna have a bunch of groups scrambling to help out in the crisis any way they can. That the website you cited stuff from suspiciously manipulates statistics from articles like these, and that website also wrongly implies that this sense of giving from religious groups extends in the longterm.

ADD: This is based on my own experience with the homeless issue. I live in Berkeley (based on stereotypes, pretty liberal right?) and as far as I know, we have a better than average care for homeless people. There's a free clinic, many places to find help, services for the needy, etc. WHY do homeless flock to places like berkeley and san francisico? Because they can find more help/services in these places than they can find in other cities (even large cities....like the pretty conservative Fresno (another place i used to live), where homeless services are pretty much crap...aside from the poverello house...that was a good thing).

ANOTHER ADD: That's not to say religious people don't give more (because they probably do), but that's probably because there are simply larger populations of religious people relative to nonreligious people in this country (US).

If a survey was made marking the percentage of charitable people within each religious/nonreligious faction, it's a whole other story.

ADD AGAIN:
So I looked up stuff on the internet and in the US, approx 14% of americans are nonreligious.
That would mean, according to the suspicious statistic at the beginning of this post, 43% of a 14% nonreligious group popluation would help a homeless person. Whereas 57% of an 86% religious group popluation would help a homeless person.
I think the these suspicious statistics look more in favor towards nonreligious people. Even if it tries to argue for the opposite. Not a very smart website.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Humans tend to use everything to bash each other over the heads.

Really??? I have never seen anyone bashed with a feather or maybe air.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Feather, sure, I've seen it, it's just not that effective, air cannon? Although you may want to catch up on the hammer analogy used above.

[Strange Dreamer]

Ok, I didn't specify a percentage of people that tend to take the bash approach as compared to trying to be constructive with it. I also acknowledge that one of the basic human traits is to respond to fear or ignorance with anger and violence.

What I would like to get at here is a little deeper than that. We are supposedly advanced beings able to overcome our irrational instincts by logical thought. We are supposed to be 'civilized' people who can treat each other fairly and courteously.

And yet we continue to show our bad side as our face to the world...

Why? Specifically with religion where the message is portrayed as hopeful, kind, and generous in most cases.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: Strange Dreamer Ok, I didn't specify a percentage of people that tend to take the bash approach as compared to trying to be constructive with it. I also acknowledge that one of the basic human traits is to respond to fear or ignorance with anger and violence. What I would like to get at here is a little deeper than that. We are supposedly advanced beings able to overcome our irrational instincts by logical thought. We are supposed to be 'civilized' people who can treat each other fairly and courteously. And yet we continue to show our bad side as our face to the world... Why? Specifically with religion where the message is portrayed as hopeful, kind, and generous in most cases.

Maybe you think that, but I have no such illusions. Religion's good potential to be a force for unity and peace, like every other potential force for good, is destroyed the minute it goes into human hands, if their is a God, He is surely weeping.

[Strange Dreamer]

Gods_Mercenary, though I am often tempted to take such a dim view of humanity in general, I have seen enough to come to the conclusion that what I stated is not an 'illusion'. Instead it is a 'potential' that people manage to live up to each day even if it isn't consistant or broad ranging across humanity.

[Alive]

Religion is just part of culture. Cultures have always been fighting each other, regardless of the importance of religion to that culture. Since the 19th century the vast majority of conflicts (military and otherwise), at least those involving the West, have been ideological (or nationalist, or classist) and not expressedly religious.

So why do different cultures have a common tendency to conflict? Perhaps basic competition over resources? Yet war is so wasteful, I would think maybe it's actually cheaper to just do with what you have than risk it. Maybe it's just the nature of ideas. You have an idea and you want others to have it to. Actually, if you don't want others to have it, it will dissapear when you die. Thus survival of the fittest kills all ideas except evangelical ones. Once you've run out of people to evangelicize, time to force people to take your ideas through force.

Also, bashing tends to enforce bounderies. If your group hates the other group that keeps them in your group.

On an open market, everyone would just take the best ideas. Other ideas need other tactics besides functional appeal to draw people in, or keep them in after the function is lost. It's possible that "bashing" helps to serve this purpose.

Just some random thoughts.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: Strange Dreamer Gods_Mercenary, though I am often tempted to take such a dim view of humanity in general, I have seen enough to come to the conclusion that what I stated is not an 'illusion'. Instead it is a 'potential' that people manage to live up to each day even if it isn't consistant or broad ranging across humanity.

That's the difference, Humans on a small scale, I don't mind, they can even occasionaly do great things, humans on a large scale are stupid, arrogant, and above all, violent. My opinion is supported by 5000 years of well documented history of us killing each other on an ever increasing scale. Never mnd what wasn't wrtten down.