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fushigi · Mar 26, 2007, 01:28 am

Despite the way I may feel about this topic personally, I'd say the bible is pretty clear on it:

Quote:

Quote by: 1 Tim 3:14,15; 2:11-15

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I [Paul, as an Apostle of Jesus Christ, with full authority of one inspired by God] suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Quote:

Quote by: 1 Cor 14:33b-35,37

As in all churches of the saints. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

I don't see how it could be any more cut-and-dried than that.

**Jack** · Mar 26, 2007, 01:41 am

Among the less zealot Christians I think the above is accepted as the apostle's attitudes but not necessarily Jesus'. The average human has to be able to find some solace in their faith, yet they know that strict literalism is an extreme they can't abide. So they take a middle ground. Sometimes the apostles are inerrant, other times they didn't seem to know what was going on. A rather human failing.

fushigi · Mar 26, 2007, 01:54 am

Quote:

Quote by: Isherwood

Sometimes the apostles are inerrant, other times they didn't seem to know what was going on. A rather human failing.

But doesn't it stand to reason that if anything in the bible is open for personal interpretation, everything is?

Deus_ultima · Mar 26, 2007, 02:23 am

Quote:

Quote by: fushigi

But doesn't it stand to reason that if anything in the bible is open for personal interpretation, everything is?

Good point..

PatrickHenry · Mar 26, 2007, 02:48 am

Quote:

Quote by: fushigi

Despite the way I may feel about this topic personally, I'd say the bible is pretty clear on it:
I don't see how it could be any more cut-and-dried than that.

Are you christian, fushigi?

fushigi · Mar 26, 2007, 03:24 am

Quote:

Quote by: PatrickHenry

Are you christian, fushigi?

Why do you ask, pH?

phoenix_fire · Mar 26, 2007, 05:07 pm

Sorry. I have a lot of stuff due this week. I would very much like to have this debate, but I don't know if I'm going to have the time to do it right now. There were a few things I wanted to read first as well.

fushigi · Mar 26, 2007, 10:24 pm

Quote:

Quote by: phoenix_fire

Sorry. I have a lot of stuff due this week. I would very much like to have this debate, but I don't know if I'm going to have the time to do it right now. There were a few things I wanted to read first as well.

It'll be here when you come back.

Plus it'll give us time to build up ammunition against you

PatrickHenry · Mar 27, 2007, 01:46 am

Quote:

Quote by: fushigi

Why do you ask, pH?

Because I must assume that if you have an interest in who ministers the Gospel of Christ, that you are a believer.

Otherwise why would you care enough to post the topic?

Or perhaps you are opposed to Christ's Kingdom and seek to undermine it?

Zee-Axis · Mar 27, 2007, 02:11 am

Quote:

Quote by: PatrickHenry

Or perhaps you are opposed to Christ's Kingdom and seek to undermine it?

I would be interested in that.

What are the hours like?

fushigi · Mar 27, 2007, 02:26 am

Quote:

Quote by: PatrickHenry

Because I must assume that if you have an interest in who ministers the Gospel of Christ, that you are a believer.

Otherwise why would you care enough to post the topic?

Or perhaps you are opposed to Christ's Kingdom and seek to undermine it?

Isn't there a third option? I'm either a believer or I want to undermine Christianity? What kind of dualistic, good vs. evil society are you from, anyway, pH???

Oh yeah, the US. :(

Anyway, I'll PM you regarding your question, pH, as I don't want to derail the thread.

As for whether I support the original argument posted above, I'd have to say I do. As I mentioned, how can individual followers arrogate the authority upon themselves to selectively edit the scriptures they supposedly believe in? You can't be "kind of" Christian or "kind of" believe that the bible is God's holy message conferred upon mankind - it's either all or nothing IMO.

Otherwise, you establish a dangerous precedent.

And yes, there are things in the bible that are pretty vague - take Revelations for example - but this one's pretty much as cut-and-dried as it gets.

IMO so long as they recognize the bible as the work of God, women have no place as Christian ministers. And if they don't view it as the work of God, what kind of Christians are they?

PatrickHenry · Mar 27, 2007, 02:41 am

Quote:

Quote by: fushigi

Isn't there a third option? I'm either a believer or I want to undermine Christianity? What kind of dualistic, good vs. evil society are you from, anyway, pH???

I think there may be multiple options, yes.

I presented a couple and made no effort to develop a comprehensive list. I am still curious as to why you seek to discuss this issue if you have no personal irons in the fire...

Just bored?

Zee-Axis · Mar 27, 2007, 02:41 am

perhaps your biblical stance on women in the church are in lockstep with some of these golden oldies...

Deuteronomy 22:28-29
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

Exodus 21:7-11
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

It appears that, men of sufficient relgious fibre in the olden-timey days were really, pretty-much pricks.

fushigi · Mar 27, 2007, 03:01 am

Quote:

Quote by: Zee-Axis

perhaps your biblical stance on women in the church are in lockstep with some of these golden oldies...

Nah, that's OT stuff. Many Christians don't jive with that stuff, and say Christ set a new precedent for righteousness that has little to do with the 613 Judaic laws.

Anyway, as pH pointed out, it's not really my fight. But I just think it's crazy for Christians to support women in the ministry when Paul's so friggin clear on the subject

fushigi · Mar 27, 2007, 03:03 am

Quote:

Quote by: PatrickHenry

I think there may be multiple options, yes.

I presented a couple and made no effort to develop a comprehensive list. I am still curious as to why you seek to discuss this issue if you have no personal irons in the fire...

Just bored?

The thread's a carryover from a separate thread where phoenix_fire, Idmaniac and I were discussing it. Ironically, neither of them is here, so I think the thread will probably die an ignominious death before too long.

PatrickHenry · Mar 27, 2007, 03:06 am

My view on the Torah is that it is the Israelites code for their day, along with a look at how God seemed to them. Not without error and in any case, superseded by Christ's sacrifice.

Apostle Paul was not infallible either. His views of women in ministry made sense in first century Greece, not in 21st century America.

God said through the prophet Joel 2:28-29

Quote:

I will pour out my Spirit on every kind of people: Your sons will prophesy, also your daughters. Your old men will dream, your young men will see visions.
I'll even pour out my Spirit on the servants, men and women both.

When God pours out His Spirit, it is presumptuous for a human being to stand in the way of supernatural power, wisdom and insight.

fushigi · Mar 27, 2007, 03:11 am

Quote:

Quote by: Joel

I will pour out my Spirit on every kind of people: Your sons will prophesy, also your daughters. Your old men will dream, your young men will see visions.
I'll even pour out my Spirit on the servants, men and women both.

But I've read that prophecy and preaching are two different things. My knowledge on the difference is pretty basic, but I can see the traditionalists' view: if they mean the same thing, why use two different words?

Zee-Axis · Mar 27, 2007, 03:12 am

Quote:

Quote by: PatrickHenry

God said through the prophet Joel 2:28-29
When God pours out His Spirit, it is presumptuous for a human being to stand in the way of supernatural power, wisdom and insight.

I'm not sure what that means. (maybe its just getting late here)

Did god literally say that to someone?

PatrickHenry · Mar 27, 2007, 03:18 am

Quote:

Quote by: Zee-Axis

I'm not sure what that means. (maybe its just getting late here)

Did god literally say that to someone?

The prophets were God's mouthpieces and Joel was one of them.
Online bible: BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 50 versions and 35 languages.

Zee-Axis · Mar 27, 2007, 03:31 am

Quote:

Quote by: fushigi

Nah, that's OT stuff. Many Christians don't jive with that stuff, and say Christ set a new precedent for righteousness that has little to do with the 613 Judaic laws.

It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

One more and I'm out:

All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

copy/paste rocks!

Mar 26, 2007, 01:41 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Jack formerly Isherwood Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 13,773	Among the less zealot Christians I think the above is accepted as the apostle's attitudes but not necessarily Jesus'. The average human has to be able to find some solace in their faith, yet they know that strict literalism is an extreme they can't abide. So they take a middle ground. Sometimes the apostles are inerrant, other times they didn't seem to know what was going on. A rather human failing. The Forum Rules Radical Atheist Heathen Queer Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be. (Ashleigh Brilliant)

Mar 26, 2007, 05:07 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
phoenix_fire Paladin Location: Narnia Posts: 4,277	Sorry. I have a lot of stuff due this week. I would very much like to have this debate, but I don't know if I'm going to have the time to do it right now. There were a few things I wanted to read first as well. Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm; for love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave. It burns like blazing fire, like a mighty flame. -- Song 8:6

Mar 27, 2007, 02:41 am	#13 (permalink) (top)
Zee-Axis Molten Ash Posts: 97	perhaps your biblical stance on women in the church are in lockstep with some of these golden oldies... Deuteronomy 22:28-29 If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. Deuteronomy 22:23-24 If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife. Exodus 21:7-11 When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. It appears that, men of sufficient relgious fibre in the olden-timey days were really, pretty-much pricks.