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pam699 · Mar 22, 2007, 01:19 pm

Could you deal with the truth and nothing but the truth

Nietzsche asked some where why truth and not lies
some argue they world could not work if the truth was said all the time
some say it is only by lies that we can exist at all
example
guys buy girls drink because they want a f..k
but they dont tell the girls this they in fact lie about their intentions

she knows they want a f.k and may take the drink so long as i they guy is not going to state his intentions if the same guy said do u want a f.k she would go away
but she knows he wants a f.k when he buys the drink
moral so long as the truth is not stated life goes on
if truth stated he gerts rejected

ANY IDEAS

Zhavric · Mar 22, 2007, 01:39 pm

I've taken the liberty of translating Pam's interweb pidgeon into English.

Is it possible for one to deal with the truth and nothing but the truth?

Nietzsche asked why use truth and not lies. Some argue their world would cease to function everyone constantly spoke truth. Some assert lies are necessary to our existence as a society.

For example, men often purchase alcoholic beverage for women with the intention of having intercourse. This intention is not spoken aloud for fear of offending the prospective female. Some would call this a type of lie.

Women understand male intention in this scneario and will accept drinks so long as the male doesn't offend her with a crude comment.

It is the case lies are necessary for our society.

Your thoughts?

pam699 · Mar 22, 2007, 01:42 pm

thank you i could not have put it beter my self lol

Epistemologist · Mar 22, 2007, 01:51 pm

Here, I suppose we're getting into a topic of teleological ethics, where a breach of a moral standard is acceptable as long as it serves some utilitarian purpose. The end, in other words, justify the means.

On the other hand, a deontologist such as Kant, for instance, would never lie assuming his or her moral standard was that lying is bad. There may be some difference between blatantly lying and cunningly deceiving though.

There may also be difference between the former and systematic quasi-lying, which I think is the case with the man buying alcohol for the women without mentioning his true intention although both know it, as such is the practice in "dating" and such.

Regardless, if we say he's lying, then what's his justification? Is his "greater good" the sexual pleasure from the intercourse he hopes to get? Are teleological ethics acceptable? I would say yes, but there should be special consideration of the circumstances.

For instance, a common moral standard (often based on a single criterion) is that killing is bad. However, I think it's sometimes okay to kill, and a teleologist would say that it's okay as long as it serves the greater good. Executing cultural enemies such as criminals seems to serve society, for instance.

I hope I answered the question.

pam699 · Mar 22, 2007, 02:11 pm

yoou have not aswered you gave philosopicak babbel
the question is
Could YOU deal with the truth and nothing but the truth
or would u liked to be lied to in some cases

but on your telelogical stance fine
but would you mind someone applying pragmatic morals to u and lie to YOU
like say with saying they r borrowing your car but then steal it
with your telelogical stance would u take them to court and say they lied -when u seenm to think lieing is ok so why charge THEM with lieing
what i mean is is it what is good for the goose is for the gander
if u lie then u dont mind being lied to then -is that it in a nut shell

Epistemologist · Mar 22, 2007, 03:42 pm

Okay, sure, I'll answer the question with a personal answer, which doesn't really do much for discussion, but what the heck. I'd say that no, sometimes it's okay to lie to me, as I've laid down with my post on teleological ethics.

Of course, it depends on the situation, but if a man was fighting for his life from gunwounds after he and his wife were shot at, and he asked his doctor how his wife was doing, it might be better for the doctor to lie and say that his wife was still alive even though she actually died en route to the hospital because it would increase his will to live and the probability that he survives in the hospital. Perhaps it would have been in his best interests to just give up at that time if his wife had died, but I suppose it would have been better for most if he lived.

And like I said, the teleological stance doesn't justify every compromise of moral standards. You're going down a slippery slope there.

pam699 · Mar 22, 2007, 04:50 pm

hey so your friends now cant trust you at all knowing you will lie to them
so how do we not know u have not been lieing to us all the time about what you proclaim are your views in all your posts -it could all just be telelogcal ethics -sorry epistemologist no one will ever believ a thing you say ever again

Epistemologist · Mar 22, 2007, 04:56 pm

Quote:

Quote by: pam699

hey so your friends now cant trust you at all knowing you will lie to them
so how do we not know u have not been lieing to us all the time about what you proclaim are your views in all your posts -it could all just be telelogcal ethics -sorry epistemologist no one will ever believ a thing you say ever again

Well, okay, if you want to tumble down that slippery slope that's fine. You'll be the one losing out from what I have to say. :)

pam699 · Mar 22, 2007, 05:01 pm

hey u r a self confessed lier come how can any one trust u ever again

but it is interesting that u say there are some truths that are just to ugly to know
so truth can be very ugly
that opens up the point
would the complet truth reveled to u about everything just be to UGLY to bear
science is in quest of ultimate truth but hypothetically could it just be to ugly to bear

Epistemologist · Mar 22, 2007, 05:05 pm

Quote:

Quote by: pam699

hey u r a self confessed lier come how can any one trust u ever again

Well, perhaps they realize that I for one can recognize my weaknesses, which are common among everyone. Then again, my attempt to rationalize the said weakness to lie could also be considered a weakness per se, but perhaps that's another issue.

Quote:

Quote by: pam699

but it is interesting that u say there are some truths that are just to ugly to know
so truth can be very ugly
that opens up the point
would the complet truth reveled to u about everything just be to UGLY to bear
science is in quest of ultimate truth but hypothetically could it just be to ugly to bear

Yes.

**Jack** · Mar 22, 2007, 05:29 pm

Quote:

hey u r a self confessed lier come how can any one trust u ever again

Did you stop to think that perhaps he was lying about being a lier?

Zinkovich · Mar 22, 2007, 05:35 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Isherwood

Did you stop to think that perhaps he was lying about being a lier?

Well, he has to stop standing eventually :)

pam699 · Mar 22, 2007, 06:54 pm

quote
Did you stop to think that perhaps he was lying about being a lier?
gee isherwood dean will love you
keep up the good pr for dean u are doing better than me

Epistemologist · Mar 22, 2007, 07:35 pm

Is Dean a comedian?

**Jack** · Mar 22, 2007, 08:04 pm

Quote:

Well, he has to stop standing eventually

OK, that will teach me not to be so subtle with my satire.

pam699 · Mar 23, 2007, 06:40 am

come on you are all philosopjers looKing for truth
COULD U DEAL WITH NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH

Epistemologist · Mar 23, 2007, 06:52 am

Why do you keep saying "come on," are you looking for a specific answer? I already said that maybe not, I couldn't deal with it in terms of my emotional response.

pam699 · Mar 23, 2007, 07:31 am

but what do others say

Mar 22, 2007, 01:19 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
pam699 BANNED Posts: 583	Could you deal with the truth and nothing but the truth Could you deal with the truth and nothing but the truth Nietzsche asked some where why truth and not lies some argue they world could not work if the truth was said all the time some say it is only by lies that we can exist at all example guys buy girls drink because they want a f..k but they dont tell the girls this they in fact lie about their intentions she knows they want a f.k and may take the drink so long as i they guy is not going to state his intentions if the same guy said do u want a f.k she would go away but she knows he wants a f.k when he buys the drink moral so long as the truth is not stated life goes on if truth stated he gerts rejected ANY IDEAS

Mar 22, 2007, 01:39 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
Zhavric Made of pure win. Posts: 3,704	I've taken the liberty of translating Pam's interweb pidgeon into English. Is it possible for one to deal with the truth and nothing but the truth? Nietzsche asked why use truth and not lies. Some argue their world would cease to function everyone constantly spoke truth. Some assert lies are necessary to our existence as a society. For example, men often purchase alcoholic beverage for women with the intention of having intercourse. This intention is not spoken aloud for fear of offending the prospective female. Some would call this a type of lie. Women understand male intention in this scneario and will accept drinks so long as the male doesn't offend her with a crude comment. It is the case lies are necessary for our society. Your thoughts? Theists: supplying volconvo with lose since 2004.

Mar 22, 2007, 01:51 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
Epistemologist God is good Location: Down by the river, stealing your water Posts: 1,518	Here, I suppose we're getting into a topic of teleological ethics, where a breach of a moral standard is acceptable as long as it serves some utilitarian purpose. The end, in other words, justify the means. On the other hand, a deontologist such as Kant, for instance, would never lie assuming his or her moral standard was that lying is bad. There may be some difference between blatantly lying and cunningly deceiving though. There may also be difference between the former and systematic quasi-lying, which I think is the case with the man buying alcohol for the women without mentioning his true intention although both know it, as such is the practice in "dating" and such. Regardless, if we say he's lying, then what's his justification? Is his "greater good" the sexual pleasure from the intercourse he hopes to get? Are teleological ethics acceptable? I would say yes, but there should be special consideration of the circumstances. For instance, a common moral standard (often based on a single criterion) is that killing is bad. However, I think it's sometimes okay to kill, and a teleologist would say that it's okay as long as it serves the greater good. Executing cultural enemies such as criminals seems to serve society, for instance. I hope I answered the question. But what's to stop the manic tide, The suicide of our own pride? The Complex

Mar 22, 2007, 03:42 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
Epistemologist God is good Location: Down by the river, stealing your water Posts: 1,518	Okay, sure, I'll answer the question with a personal answer, which doesn't really do much for discussion, but what the heck. I'd say that no, sometimes it's okay to lie to me, as I've laid down with my post on teleological ethics. Of course, it depends on the situation, but if a man was fighting for his life from gunwounds after he and his wife were shot at, and he asked his doctor how his wife was doing, it might be better for the doctor to lie and say that his wife was still alive even though she actually died en route to the hospital because it would increase his will to live and the probability that he survives in the hospital. Perhaps it would have been in his best interests to just give up at that time if his wife had died, but I suppose it would have been better for most if he lived. And like I said, the teleological stance doesn't justify every compromise of moral standards. You're going down a slippery slope there. But what's to stop the manic tide, The suicide of our own pride? The Complex Last edited by Epistemologist; Mar 22, 2007 at 03:42 pm. Reason: Changed "he" to "she"

Mar 22, 2007, 07:35 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
Epistemologist God is good Location: Down by the river, stealing your water Posts: 1,518	Is Dean a comedian? But what's to stop the manic tide, The suicide of our own pride? The Complex

Mar 22, 2007, 01:42 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
pam699 BANNED Posts: 583	thank you i could not have put it beter my self lol

Mar 22, 2007, 02:11 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
pam699 BANNED Posts: 583	yoou have not aswered you gave philosopicak babbel the question is Could YOU deal with the truth and nothing but the truth or would u liked to be lied to in some cases but on your telelogical stance fine but would you mind someone applying pragmatic morals to u and lie to YOU like say with saying they r borrowing your car but then steal it with your telelogical stance would u take them to court and say they lied -when u seenm to think lieing is ok so why charge THEM with lieing what i mean is is it what is good for the goose is for the gander if u lie then u dont mind being lied to then -is that it in a nut shell

Mar 22, 2007, 04:50 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
pam699 BANNED Posts: 583	hey so your friends now cant trust you at all knowing you will lie to them so how do we not know u have not been lieing to us all the time about what you proclaim are your views in all your posts -it could all just be telelogcal ethics -sorry epistemologist no one will ever believ a thing you say ever again

Mar 22, 2007, 05:01 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
pam699 BANNED Posts: 583	hey u r a self confessed lier come how can any one trust u ever again but it is interesting that u say there are some truths that are just to ugly to know so truth can be very ugly that opens up the point would the complet truth reveled to u about everything just be to UGLY to bear science is in quest of ultimate truth but hypothetically could it just be to ugly to bear

Mar 22, 2007, 06:54 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
pam699 BANNED Posts: 583	quote Did you stop to think that perhaps he was lying about being a lier? gee isherwood dean will love you keep up the good pr for dean u are doing better than me

Mar 23, 2007, 06:40 am	#16 (permalink) (top)
pam699 BANNED Posts: 583	come on you are all philosopjers looKing for truth COULD U DEAL WITH NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH

Mar 23, 2007, 06:52 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
Epistemologist God is good Location: Down by the river, stealing your water Posts: 1,518	Why do you keep saying "come on," are you looking for a specific answer? I already said that maybe not, I couldn't deal with it in terms of my emotional response. But what's to stop the manic tide, The suicide of our own pride? The Complex Last edited by Epistemologist; Mar 23, 2007 at 06:52 am. Reason: Changed "emotions" to "emotional response"

Mar 23, 2007, 07:31 am	#18 (permalink) (top)
pam699 BANNED Posts: 583	but what do others say