Giving up your religion

[Mr.Vicchio]

Why do you have a problem if I choose to use the bible to reach the same conclusions you basically do?

[Gorgo]

Why do you think you reach the same conclusions that I do?

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio, Why do you have a problem if I choose to use the bible to reach the same conclusions you basically do?

[Mr.Vicchio]

I meant on whats right and wrong.

Its wrong to kill someone, hurt someone, to steal, cheat on a spouse, lie, disrespect parents (while living with them especially), greed is not good, neither is vanity.

Would you agree or not?

[Plaything48]

Why do you have a problem if I choose to use the bible to reach the same conclusions you basically do?

Was this directed at me?

I don't have a problem how you live your life, I'm just trying to FULLY understand your decisions

[Mr.Vicchio]

Read the New Testament then, as an historical study of beliefs then.

That would explain where I am comming from... I think that answers your question.

[Plaything48]

I'm not gonna read a book that has over 300000 known discrepancies. Still you've been helpful, but I would like to hear from more religious people(not only christians) on this matter.

[Gorgo]

If you decide that life is a good idea. Then:

1) If you're going to live in peace and health for very long it's a good idea to do certain things:

a: Take care of yourself
b: Watch out for others to the extent that you can, hoping that they do the same for you.

The Golden Rule does apply, and has existed long before Christianity. If you want to be respected, then it's a good idea to treat others with respect.

If you care about life, then you care about reality. For instance, there are no morons, unless you're telling me that there is still a medically defined condition named "moron". Morons are what we see when we look at the world through the filter of our angry beliefs. Our angry beliefs tell us that we are not good enough unless we or the world is a certain way. We look for "morons" out there to build ourselves up.

Morons can't embarrass us or make us mad. We are angry and embarrassed people who are looking for the ways to prove that we do not have self-worth. Either that other person does not understand reality, or we don't. If we see people that don't understand reality as morons, what does that make us when we don't understand? If that person is attempting to use us to get his/her own self-worth, that means that they don't think they have it. If we see them as not having worth ("moron"), then what good does it do us to confirm that for them?

If I see "enemy," then I've confirmed that someone else does not have worth. Now it may be true that if someone is confused or deranged enough to take my life, I might be inclined to try to defend myself. It is not an ideal that I hold, however.

Why am I concerned about those that fight reality and believe in god(s)? No disrespect intended. We all have our areas where we fight reality. I just see this as a big area that we're supposed to be afraid to talk to each other about. Atheists and theists alike tell me that we're supposed to "tolerate" each other. I have no problem with respecting you as a person. I have no problem with thinking you're wrong and going on with my day. However, I do have a problem with calling black white. If the subject turns to smoking cigarettes, I would say that smoking too much, whatever that amount is, is not a good idea. Same with heroin. Hating reality in all its forms, including the forms that I indulge in, is not a good idea if you care about life. If you want to do it, then more power to you. But I doubt that you do. If I'm wrong about all this, then fine. I'm wrong. Go on with your day and be well.

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio, I meant on whats right and wrong. Its wrong to kill someone, hurt someone, to steal, cheat on a spouse, lie, disrespect parents (while living with them especially), greed is not good, neither is vanity. Would you agree or not?

[Autophage]

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio, If I gave up my religion? Hmmm... I would have to question everything I did, I would have no basis for right and wrong then. My moral beliefs would be whatever I wanted them to be. Thats not a good thing IMHO.

Most moral rules can be obtained logically as well from a WIDE variety of bases, religion's just a convenient one. For instance, I believe it's generally wrong to kill because it subtracts from the general good-feeling-ness of the world and the potential things that the victim might have done, might have influenced the lives of others even if by accident.

[Starlight Magick]

I don't have a religion that I claim for my own. Yet I have wonderful morals compared to everyone else my age.. I'm 19
I wear clothing that covers me, I don't believe casual sex, No stealing, No drugs, moderate alcohol (don't see the point in getting drunk)..
And no, I'm not a 'goody-two-shoe'..

However, I did go to a church as a child. Didn't teach me morals as much as adult influence (not my parents) did. The problem with not having religion is kids don't always pick up morals from somewhere else. (And I say kids becuause most people's morals tend to come from what they learned as a child/ teen)

[mrmufin]

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mr.Vicchio,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Answer these 5 questions.. just bare with me please. Right or wrong and why? 1. Helping an old lady across the street even though it will make you late for work.[/b]

It depends upon additional circumstanes, such as the consequences for being late for work, whether or not there are others available and willing to help the lady cross the street, how much traffic there is, etc.

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mr.Vicchio,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>2. Respecting your parents.[/b]

It depends entirely on the parents. Not all parents are worthy of respect.

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio, 3. Someone calls your significant other, G/f B/F, Hubby/Wife something derragatory, you could wipe the floor with him and get into no legal toruble, would you? Why/why not?

Now you're hitting closer to home... For name-calling, insults, derogatory statements and other non-physical actions, no. Counter words with more words, or none at all. However, I did tell the very lovely msmufin that if he ever laid an unwelcome hand on her (and she didn't take him out first) that I would make the problem "go away permanently." I'm a pretty laid back, peaceful kinda guy... but if you lay a hand on msmufin, you'd better hope that law enforcement catches up with you before I do.

<!--QuoteBegin-Mr.Vicchio,@
4. You find a wallet with 500 in cash in it in a parking lot, what do you do? It has ID, pictures in it. (This NO KIDDING, happened to me.) Keep it/return it? Why?[/quote]
This one's a no-brainer. Return it completely intact. Why? It's not your wallet.

<!--QuoteBegin-Mr.Vicchio,
5. You see some older children picking on a younger kid, do you stop them? Why/Why not?[/quote]
This was the most difficult one, probably because "picking on" is pretty vague. If the confrontation was not physical, I suspect that I'd encourage the younger kid to walk away from the situation. In a physical confrontation, I'd be much more inclined to protect the younger kid, but ultimately, without being a witness to a specific situation, it's a tough call to make.

Regards,
mrmufin

[PhanthomOps]

plaything48:
Quote: "I'm not gonna read a book that has over 300000 known discrepancies. Still you've been helpful, but I would like to hear from more religious people(not only christians) on this matter."

Where?????

Mr.Vicchio:
Quote: "If I gave up my religion? Hmmm...I would have to question everything I did, I would have no basis for right and wrong then. My moral beliefs would be whatever I wanted them to be. Thats not a good thing IMHO."

Great reply - that's what I think they call "situations ethics"

Autophage:
Quote: "Most moral rules can be obtained logically as well from a WIDE variety of bases, religion's just a convenient one"

IMHO the morals and ethics stated in the Scriptures are more exacting and demanding on an individual's actions.

[Samildanach]

Isn't it weird how God always makes himself 'known' to those who have done something bad or need to atone for an action.
I've just about never heard someone say hey I was walking down the street minding my own business, I bent down to tie my shoelace and suddenly this voice started up telling me it was God, he just started speaking to me.

[shunyadragon]

I will give three answers from different perspectives. (1) My belief Baha'i. (2) My belief when I was Buddhist. (3) The morals of ethics of contemporary China which would be atheist, which is where I live.

Mr.Vicchio,] hoenstly cannot answer that Plaything. Every thought I have revolves back to right and wrong as defined in the Bible. Seriously. Ia m nto trying to be a jerk... but what is right and wrong?

Is it RIGHT to do something? Why?

I can give you answers from the Word fo Jesus.. but I alone cannot find a reason other then "just because it is"

I don't think you will under stand... Lets try this..

Answer these 5 questions.. just bare with me please.

Right or wrong and why?

1. Helping an old lady across the street even though it will make you late for work.
(1) Yes. (2) Yes (3) Yes
2. Respecting your parents.
(1) Yes. (2) Yes (3) Yes
3. Someone calls your significant other, G/f B/F, Hubby/Wife something derragatory, you could wipe the floor with him and get into no legal toruble, would you? Why/why not?
(1) No, Violence leads to violence (2) No, Same (3) No, conflict would lead to lose of face.
4. You find a wallet with 500 in cash in it in a parking lot, what do you do? It has ID, pictures in it. (This NO KIDDING, happened to me.) Keep it/return it? Why?
(1) Return it, it does not belong to you. (2) Return it, same. (3) Return it, but most people would not.


5. You see some older children picking on a younger kid, do you stop them? Why/Why not?
(1) Yes, as diplomatically as possible (2) Yes, as gently as possible. (3) Yes, elders must intercede

[Plaything48]

Shunydragon, that's a good way of answering those questions, and I think I would agree with all the answers you gave.

[m3talsmith]

Done. Since I have no religion I would be the same. What I do have is a belief in things proven to me; some call these things truth, while I see them only as valid until disproven.

[Comrade]

Don't most people get morals and ethics from what parents and schools repeat to them over and over?

If you follow an atheist's (my) viewpoint, that religion was a creation of man, then man created ethics, so we are perfectly capable of being and defining "moral" as the term goes.
It pleases me to be nice to other people, and it helps that other person, which betters "the community", so it is a positive in both emotion and logic, so why do people say humans can't define morals, that we have to be dictated to?

I'll go a little further and say because it is hard to quantify, so we set up this spiritual standard to which we can compare. A million dollars is just paper if it is not recognized as a medium of exchange. A meter means nothing if there is no definition for what a meter is. And an ethical law has no value if you can't compare it to some absolute scale. It is how the mind works. In my view.

[Sonart]

Fascinating post, Shunya. Can I assume you are Chinese? If so - and I hope I'm not being patronizing, but - your command of written english is quite impressive.

Anyway, here's some questions about right or wrong from another perspective:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image

It so happens that I make graven images for a living, being an artist for Sony Online Entertainment. We make the world's most popular online fantasy role-playing game, EverQuest, and, as an artist, I am often required to illustrate some of the gods and demi-gods that populate our fantasy world.

Right or Wrong?

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy

The Christian Sabbath is on Sunday and the Jewish Sabbath is Saturday. So far ok. However, the Moslem Sabbath is on Friday. Yet I'm sure Judge Moore keeps his Courtroom open and working on Fridays.

Right or Wrong?

[PhanthomOps]

Samildanach:
Quote: "Isn't it weird how God always makes himself 'known' to those who have done something bad or need to atone for an action.
I've just about never heard someone say hey I was walking down the street minding my own business, I bent down to tie my shoelace and suddenly this voice started up telling me it was God, he just started speaking to me."

Well to be completely honest with you, at that time in my life I really wasn't seeking Him. He came to me in the person of a close and dear friend.

Shunyadragon:

I have to agree with Plaything48 :) :)

Comrade:

Although I may disagree with one or two points you made, your logic is impeccable.

Sonart:
Quote: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image

It so happens that I make graven images for a living, being an artist for Sony Online Entertainment. We make the world's most popular online fantasy role-playing game, EverQuest, and, as an artist, I am often required to illustrate some of the gods and demi-gods that populate our fantasy world. Right or Wrong?"

This the fourth commandment coincides with the third and fifth, and must be taken as one. Therein is your answer.

Quote: "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy"

What the Sabbath day is to one, is different from another, as you so aptly pointed out. God did not specify a specific day in the week, so if you because of work are off on a Tuesday, so be it.

I have to admit that I would feel empty without Christ in my life. But I can gurantee there is nothing that will ever shake my beliefs but it is interesting to investigate the matter. I hate it when I miss the opening to these debates but I'll add my 3 cents anyways. Before I accepted Christianity I admit that I had many morals and guidlines to follow, but those qualities came from religous parents. However, my parents beliefs put me in a skeptic frame of mind when dealing with Christianity instead of accepting it true no matter how I felt. I would also like to note that after observing my family and other FAITHFUL Christians I felt at ease when I chose to accept. But going back to the morals; Someone mentioned that China and India would mave no morals according to the bible. Well, you also have to understand that according to the bible everyone descended from a couple with knowledge of morals. Examples of parents and children moral similarity can be cited all day. But in order for those morals to change, the children would have to find a better way of living. Some good morals would stay in line for a very long time unless better ones occured. Do you see how that works? If the starting couple had good morals, so would the next, and so on and so forth. People who fail to accept those morals end up having a bad life and doing bad deeds. This is a very brief explanation of how morals came about, but I think I would get carpel tunnel if I explained it all.

[Sonart]

I have to admit that I would feel empty without Christ in my life. But I can gurantee there is nothing that will ever shake my beliefs but it is interesting to investigate the matter.

Glad to hear that it works for you, Theo.

If the starting couple had good morals, so would the next, and so on and so forth. People who fail to accept those morals end up having a bad life and doing bad deeds. This is a very brief explanation of how morals came about, but I think I would get carpel tunnel if I explained it all.

And I would likely get brain freeze trying to follow it.