Prayer doesn't work

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: Zee-Axis So, is god only capable of healing when the affliction is something that the human body could heal on its own?

This is a rhetorical question, right?:rolleyes: How many amputees have you seen with new human limbs that weren't reattached by doctors? Oh wait, thank god for the doctors, right?

[Alive]

ItsDarts, yeah, and in the Bible not even the disciples have enough faith to get god to do anything for them (there's a good passage about this but I can't find it.) And there are some places in the Bible where it says explicitely that prayers are not being answered. There has never been a religion which believed that prayer is a magical credit card.

Do you think religious people don't pray for amputees? Or that when someone is not cured of cancer, they think it's because they didn't pray hard enough? I wonder how recently you people have been to a place of worship? Definitely, I have been in churches and synagogues of a few different denominations, and none of them have that kind of attitude towards prayer. Asking god to heal a sick person is not a request that is usually expected to be answered by a cure (though, granted, if the person is cured people will call it a miracle. But that is not the only point of the prayer.)

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Zee-Axis So, is god only capable of healing when the affliction is something that the human body could heal on its own?

God isn't capable of healing at all. He doesn't exist. Christians are taking credit for positive coincidences.

The human body has incredible regenerative capablities many of which we do not yet understand. Attributing them to god ensures we'll never understand them.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Alive Do you think religious people don't pray for amputees? Or that when someone is not cured of cancer, they think it's because they didn't pray hard enough?

We know exactly why you think what you think. It's quite irrelevant. We know that god heals no one because god isn't real.

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: Alive ItsDarts, yeah, and in the Bible not even the disciples have enough faith to get god to do anything for them (there's a good passage about this but I can't find it.) And there are some places in the Bible where it says explicitely that prayers are not being answered. There has never been a religion which believed that prayer is a magical credit card.

Ummm I just gave you passages that disagree with what you're saying. Even if I assume you are correct, then you are saying that the bible is contradictory. In the verse I gave, it said a mustard seed of faith. Thats not very much faith if you ask me.

Do you think religious people don't pray for amputees?

Of course not. I'm pretty sure they do, ever notice that not one of these prayers has been answered?

Or that when someone is not cured of cancer, they think it's because they didn't pray hard enough?

Actually the most common answer I hear is "It must have been gods will".

I wonder how recently you people have been to a place of worship? Definitely, I have been in churches and synagogues of a few different denominations, and none of them have that kind of attitude towards prayer. Asking god to heal a sick person is not a request that is usually expected to be answered by a cure (though, granted, if the person is cured people will call it a miracle. But that is not the only point of the prayer.)

and when its not cured, its gods will. Which is my main point here.... If gods going to do what he wants anyway, why pray? Who are you to assume he'd change his will because someone prays? Oh yeah, the bible says he will. But he doesn't. Do you think maybe he doesn't be cause "He" doesn't exist?

[Alive]

Zhaveric,

1. I am not religious
2. My entire point is that most religious people agree with you--god does not heal people because of prayer

ItsDarts,

Yes, the Bible obviously is contradictory, and modern Christians do not follow it. But I don't think this part is contradictory.

Mark 9 was the passage I was thinking of. The disciples try to help a boy, acknowledge that they only need a little bit of faith, but they can't do it! Jesus has to, and tells them they didn't pray with enough faith. Hey, if the disciples couldn't do it why would Christians today think they can? This is entirely in keeping with the basic biblical attitude towards prayer, which, like the attitude in most religions, is that prayer very rarely brings what is explicitely asked by it.

So yeah, Jesus says prayer is easy, but it really isn't for normal people. Perhaps the literary point is that almost everyone is faithless. But the practical implication is that prayer doesn't "work".

Actually the most common answer I hear is "It must have been gods will".

Exactly. So prayer does not "work" because god does what he wants/must (according to that attitude.)

So, can we agree for most people who pray, the purpose of prayer is not to get what they explicitely ask from the prayer?

The purpose is otherwise. Like I said earlier, prayer brings a medidative, calming state in the right frame of mind. I think this is one of its purposes. I don't know for sure, I haven't prayed in years, but then I don't find meditation very helpful either.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: ItsDarts Jesus is actually in our midst and God answers our prayers.

Agree. The answer may not be what we want though.

Quote by: ItsDarts So you see? It is a spiritual credit card, but if you're an amputee, he doesn't listen.

Your proof? Any amputee experiments in which the victim prayed in faith for physical restoration? Didn't think so.

And I disagree that anyone can manipulate God. He is sovereign, no one else is.

If you're my kid and I say I'll give you anything you want, expecting you to ask for ice cream, yet you say, "I'd like a 44 Mag so I can blow my sister's head off" do I have to follow through on my offer to give you a gift? Who is the parent here?

And to the more general assertion by the antigod crowd...prayer isn't what you define it to be. It is what it is. Your pride, or perhaps I should label it arrogance, in no way constrains the real world of the spirit.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Agree. The answer may not be what we want though. Your proof? Any amputee experiments in which the victim prayed in faith for physical restoration? Didn't think so. And I disagree that anyone can manipulate God. He is sovereign, no one else is. If you're my kid and I say I'll give you anything you want, expecting you to ask for ice cream, yet you say, "I'd like a 44 Mag so I can blow my sister's head off" do I have to follow through on my offer to give you a gift? Who is the parent here? And to the more general assertion by the antigod crowd...prayer isn't what you define it to be. It is what it is. Your pride, or perhaps I should label it arrogance, in no way constrains the real world of the spirit.

Claims that pray works, is at best anecdotal in today's modern world. The problem with the Bible is that there are many extraordinary claims that prayer has miraculous rewards instore for those who sincerely believe, but their is always the Catch-22 in the fine print, that the rewards of prayer depend on the sincerity of belief.

My view of prayer is somewhat different in that prayer is indeed communion with God and seeking gains through prayer is problematic.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Alive Zhaveric, 1. I am not religious

What do you describe as religious? This is one of the greatest scape goat words in history. Religious probably applies to most people on the planet.

2. My entire point is that most religious people agree with you--god does not heal people because of prayer

The Bible testifies that praying for healing works.



[/quote]The purpose is otherwise. Like I said earlier, prayer brings a medidative, calming state in the right frame of mind. I think this is one of its purposes. I don't know for sure, I haven't prayed in years, but then I don't find meditation very helpful either.[/quote]True, but this is most often called meditation, and yes some kinds of prays are considered meditative.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Agree. The answer may not be what we want though. Your proof? Any amputee experiments in which the victim prayed in faith for physical restoration? Didn't think so. And I disagree that anyone can manipulate God. He is sovereign, no one else is. If you're my kid and I say I'll give you anything you want, expecting you to ask for ice cream, yet you say, "I'd like a 44 Mag so I can blow my sister's head off" do I have to follow through on my offer to give you a gift? Who is the parent here?

Your right. Those maniacs want their ARMS back?? Are they insane? They myswell ask for their neighbor's head to be spontaneously beheaded.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Your right. Those maniacs want their ARMS back?? Are they insane? They myswell ask for their neighbor's head to be spontaneously beheaded.

??WTF??

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: PatrickHenry ??WTF??

Look at what I was replying to. :]

Quote by: PatrickHenry If you're my kid and I say I'll give you anything you want, expecting you to ask for ice cream, yet you say, "I'd like a 44 Mag so I can blow my sister's head off" do I have to follow through on my offer to give you a gift? Who is the parent here?

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Look at what I was replying to. :]

Oh, I thought you were talking about the amputees...

[Zee-Axis]

It is said in the Bible that god answers all prayers. (please don't ask for the specific verses, these thread responses are long enough).

I've also heard it said by many who beleive that, the answer god gives is either: Yes, no or wait.

Are ther any theists following this thread that would agree with that?

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: Zee-Axis I've also heard it said by many who beleive that, the answer god gives is either: Yes, no or wait.

I heard a few of the other answers are "looks doubtful" and "ask again later." Or is that the 8 ball?

[PatrickHenry]

I don't think anyone is listening when I say prayer is not all about gimme.

[Zee-Axis]

OK, let's try it again...

Does god EVER answer prayers? To anyone? About anything?

Looking forward to more evasions in the morning.

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: PatrickHenry I don't think anyone is listening when I say prayer is not all about gimme.

We get that part, its ALSO about communion and the comfort effect, however it is ALSO about the gimme factor, as in Gimme my arm back, or better yet, don't let me lose my arm in the first place. The fact is people DO pray for cures, but if this is all gods plan, then why are you praying for things? We don't care that it makes you feel warm and fuzzy, thats not the ONLY reason people pray. They expect "miracles" and should the doctors be able to save an arm, you're quick the thank the lord (for the doctors work) and call it a miracle and when the arm can't be saved, you're quick to write it off as Gods Will.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Zee-Axis OK, let's try it again... Does god EVER answer prayers? To anyone? About anything? Looking forward to more evasions in the morning.

Yes, but not in the manner most often expected by humans.

[Zee-Axis]

Quote by: shunyadragon Yes, but not in the manner most often expected by humans.

Great! This is a start.
In what sort of unexpected god-like manner does god answer?