The Science Of Morality?

[Eclipse]

Quote by: GM Our morality, like all higher mammals, comes from interpretations of social instincts. On an evolutionary level, our society has gone from simple cave dwellings to being massively sophisticated in the blink of an eye. We're trying to fit the square peg of our cave-man brains into the round hole of the society we've created for ourselves. Is it any wonder we have so many issues?

Yes, our morality is put into words and onto paper by our interpretations.

Quote by: RickSP I do not disagree with de Waal's suggestion that "all social animals have had to constrain or alter their behavior in various ways for group living to be worthwhile." I just question whether or not it is particularly useful to define these behaviors as "morality" in the same sense as applied to humans. I note that even de Waal doesn't make that claim.

What I take from the suggestions made in the article is that there are genetic characteristics, mainly in the area affecting neurobiology, that have different filters or pre-etched and loose guides that ultimately affect our behavioral outcome. The glue that keeps us together as mentioned in the article.

The other side of the coin is that conflict holds us together and this "moral" behavior is fruitless. I would argue that if everything was in fact conflict-based then there would be nothing to hold together. This moral behavior is a survival tool and a product of our make-up. Even though conflict brings us together, this make-up is the cause for that in light of a threat.

Quote by: RickSP It is also fine to suggest empathy among primates but one should not focus solely on examples of nurturing. Chimpanzees are predators, noted for hunting colobus monkeys as well as 35 types of other vertebrate animals that are commonly eaten by chimpanzees. Cannibalism and even the killing and eating of human children by chimps has been documented on rare occasions.

Yes, chimps have some interesting habits. Chimps are but one variety of complex primates. You have apes and bonobos yet. You have other animals as well. Would it be a matter of filtering out genes to achieve a more successful/peaceful community in the case of unnecessary canabilism and murder? Or is it purely learned behavior? I think this is what Waal was getting at with building blocks of morality.

Quote by: athiest I think the word you want to use here is "altruism," or the willingness to help others without strings attached.

Altruism is a form of morality and a fundamental one for a community at times. Morality is the word I wish to use.

Quote by: athiest At an evolutionary level, altruism really helps a community survive and grow. If everyone's just looking out for themselves, I don't think the survival rate would be as high for this group as for a group who did help one another out.

Correct, so the question becomes, is there a science that holds that morality -- a form of survival -- or is it simply learned?

[Gods_Mercenary]

Chimps also embark on wars earily like our own between groups for no other reason besides one group is strong enough to kill off the other one.

[Eclipse]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Chimps also embark on wars earily like our own between groups for no other reason besides one group is strong enough to kill off the other one.

You sound confident in your purely no reason claim. There are a few possible reasons. I'll list some vague possibilities because they can become case-specific.

1) Survival of their own
2) Benefit of their own.
3) Enjoyment for their own.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Both groups have been able to survive in the area for the forseeable future. Enjoyment represents an unprovable emotion that we don't know chimps get out of killing each other, although if their human cousins are any clue, they probably do. Benefit makes most sense, but getting your own chimps killed in a relatively pointless endeavor against a group that posed little threat certainly doesn't seem to benefit them. Then again, aliens would probably say the same thing about our wars.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary I'm talking about interspecies morality.

A better word is probably extraspecie relations.

I disagree with this to if that is the case, extraspecie relationships in terms of ethics and morals are possibly almost as important to survival as interspecie relations. Grooming of preditors by smaller animals that would normally be prey is an example of cooperative ethics in extraspecie relations.

[Gods_Mercenary]

I disagree with this to if that is the case, extraspecie relationships in terms of ethics and morals are possibly almost as important to survival as interspecie relations. Grooming of preditors by smaller animals that would normally be prey is an example of cooperative ethics in extraspecie relations.

Like thos little fish with the sharks? those fish would not normally be prey for the sharks, they are far too small. That's all I can really think of.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Like thos little fish with the sharks? those fish would not normally be prey for the sharks, they are far too small. That's all I can really think of.

No that is not the prime example, but asside from that not all the fish that clean sharks are very small. In the Galapagos lizards are tolerated climbing over seals, because they eat the flies. Some kinds of birds are allowed to groom gators and crocs. Cooperative coexistence of species evolves and a part of the game of evolutionary survival.