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StrongHeartsWin · Mar 19, 2007, 04:53 am

People seem naturally to try and order their environment so that it can be understood or improved upon. Children if given a set of objects will soon go about either building something with them on an order that makes sense to them, or will perhaps categorize the objects by shape, size, or color. Even animals will order things at their disposable for their utility in a larger form (e.g. ants piling dirt granules to form a protective barrier around their holes).

Is it truthful to say a “chaotic order” or “orderly chaos” or is it just semantical rhettoric of some sorts? I know it is oxymoronic but I am wondering if one is innately more truthful than another. Does the level on which we ask the question determine the dominance (e.g. individual or universal)?

My home dining room table, desk, garden shed etc... seems to get chaotic with stuff everywhere, but I strive for order. Biological life seems to be built on order, but its breakdown to the state of death seems to be one of disorder and parts failure. Is parts failure indeed order? Is order ok to be malfunctioning? And what about social order and chaos?

Do you have a particular incite or opinion on “chaos” and “order” and the link between them, particularly if one is more dominant than the other? If so, I`d be interested to hear about it.

Mar 19, 2007, 05:37 am

To a large extent, chaos and order are a matter of scale. Weather, for example, at a large scale appears chaotic and only marginally predictable in the short term. At the molecular level, the components that constitute weather--oxygen, nitrogen, water vapor, heat--are very ordered. At the quantum level, chaos again dominates. The same can be said for playing cards. One playing card is immutable and ordered. However 52 of them in a game of Texas Hold 'em can be very chaotic and almost entirely unpredictable.

Regards
S.

StrongHeartsWin · Mar 19, 2007, 05:51 am

What would be the highest or smallest level, and what would dominate there? Perhaps order dominates at the micro (querks -- but are their movements erratic or orderly) level and chaos dominates at the macro (universal)?

It seems that arranging them in such a way looks orderly. Ughh ...

If chaos and order dominate at different levels, then is that itself not chaotic? Or is it orderly? hmmmm...

Kuldeep · Mar 19, 2007, 08:25 am

In a bit hurry, at the moment I can only tell: Chaos and Order are inter-related. Chaos occurs due to variety of reasons but goal of every type of Chaos is Order only. Order again gets converted to chaos due to many many reasons but, again the approach is back to order...this way cyle repeats!!!!

SoccerfreakAB2 · Mar 19, 2007, 04:22 pm

I think a better word sometimes for "order" would be "pattern." That's what fascinates us a lot about nature--repetition, duration, beauty, etc. Living things, and I include atoms and molecules, strive for perfection in shape, size, and ultimately, efficiency. This is what we see as order.

In the stellar world, however, there is only chaos, and the beauty of course that comes with the pretty colors and shapes of stellar gases. I think one major problem with our theories on space and time is that they are too ordered, and perhaps that's why we have only understood little of ideas like these.

tman_ndsu08 · Mar 19, 2007, 07:17 pm

The universe always trends from order to disorder.

Entropy, it's called.

SoccerfreakAB2 · Mar 19, 2007, 10:11 pm

Quote:

Quote by: tman_ndsu08

The universe always trends from order to disorder.

Entropy, it's called.

Assuming we live in a closed system. Plus, I doubt the true destiny of our universe is trillions of years from now where all the energy will have been used and nothing is left but heat death.

shunyadragon · Mar 19, 2007, 11:13 pm

Quote:

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin

People seem naturally to try and order their environment so that it can be understood or improved upon. Children if given a set of objects will soon go about either building something with them on an order that makes sense to them, or will perhaps categorize the objects by shape, size, or color. Even animals will order things at their disposable for their utility in a larger form (e.g. ants piling dirt granules to form a protective barrier around their holes).

Is it truthful to say a “chaotic order” or “orderly chaos” or is it just semantical rhettoric of some sorts? I know it is oxymoronic but I am wondering if one is innately more truthful than another. Does the level on which we ask the question determine the dominance (e.g. individual or universal)?

My home dining room table, desk, garden shed etc... seems to get chaotic with stuff everywhere, but I strive for order. Biological life seems to be built on order, but its breakdown to the state of death seems to be one of disorder and parts failure. Is parts failure indeed order? Is order ok to be malfunctioning? And what about social order and chaos?

Do you have a particular incite or opinion on “chaos” and “order” and the link between them, particularly if one is more dominant than the other? If so, I`d be interested to hear about it.

The nature of the universe is a very well run orderly existence. Other than the unpatterned randomness observed in the behavior of subatomic particles, the 'chaos model' of non-linear relationships seems to be a part of a very orderly universe that we used to call random and without a predicable pattern. Natural Laws persist in a very natural universe to demonstrate order and harmony.

If chaos was dominante to any extent, we and our universe would not likely exist.

**Jack** · Mar 20, 2007, 12:11 am

The TAO teaches we must have a balance in nature or else nothing could exist. Light defines dark, life is opposed to death, you can't be here unless you're not there. Chaos is the lack of order, order restrains chaos. What we perceive as the domination of one over the other is a result of scale and attention, as sdbest mentioned. I like chaos in some contexts, even order that appears chaotic. Smoke patters in the air or the swirls of creamer in my coffee are beautiful. They look just chaotic enough to be fascinating.

tman_ndsu08 · Mar 20, 2007, 10:31 am

Quote:

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2

Assuming we live in a closed system.

Doesn't really matter as long as there is no new energy coming into the system.

Even if the energy distribution never reaches equilibrium, the continual spreading of the energy past a sufficiently low density will achieve heat death.

If there is new energy coming from somewhere (other universes, whatever), then it's a different story.

SoccerfreakAB2 · Mar 20, 2007, 02:17 pm

Quote:

Quote by: tman_ndsu08

If there is new energy coming from somewhere (other universes, whatever), then it's a different story.

Right, that was my point. You were making an assumption. Entropy is just part of the closed universe theory only, one of many theories for the background of our universe.

So if you assume otherwise, then, generally speaking, order and disorder have no coherent relationship in macrophysical space, since there's no closed space to organize.

Slevin57 · Mar 20, 2007, 02:24 pm

Well from a philosophical point, we are constantly moving from Choas to Order.

I cannot speculate as to how much Choas is out there, but I think we still have a bit to go. Wars, Famine, Murder, Rape and the icecapdes seem very Choatic to me. Hopefully one day order will fall upon them and things will be set straight.

tman_ndsu08 · Mar 20, 2007, 04:00 pm

Quote:

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2

generally speaking, order and disorder have no coherent relationship in macrophysical space, since there's no closed space to organize.

No...

it doesn't matter if it's a closed system, open system, whatever.

Energy always tends to spread out.

Think of a room where half is filled with smoke. You remove the barrier and the smoke starts spreading from only half the room (more ordered) to fill the whole room evenly (less ordered).

Even if you then take all the walls of the room away, the smoke will still spread out forever, even if it never reaches a homeostasis.

Doesn't matter if you're pumping more smoke in or whatever.

It will always spread out as far as it can go.

atheist · Mar 20, 2007, 08:32 pm

one defines the other,
thus,
we know everything yet know nothing,
even these words are and aren't

someone hand me a mic, a smoky bar + stage, and a hat i can cover my eyes with

shunyadragon · Mar 20, 2007, 10:04 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Isherwood

The TAO teaches we must have a balance in nature or else nothing could exist. Light defines dark, life is opposed to death, you can't be here unless you're not there. Chaos is the lack of order, order restrains chaos. What we perceive as the domination of one over the other is a result of scale and attention, as sdbest mentioned. I like chaos in some contexts, even order that appears chaotic. Smoke patters in the air or the swirls of creamer in my coffee are beautiful. They look just chaotic enough to be fascinating.

Your misinterpreting the concept of the harmony and unity, thus order in the concept of the Tao. The light and darkness of the symbol of the Tao represents the feminine and masculine attributes of existence and not life and death. In the Tao their is not a balance between chaos and order. Order, or harmony and unity is the balance of the feminine and masculine attributes and chaos, disorder, and death represent the imbalence of the attributes of existence.

In the Orient they fear chaos, in the west they fear death.

SoccerfreakAB2 · Mar 20, 2007, 10:06 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Slevin57

Well from a philosophical point, we are constantly moving from Choas to Order.

I cannot speculate as to how much Choas is out there, but I think we still have a bit to go. Wars, Famine, Murder, Rape and the icecapdes seem very Choatic to me. Hopefully one day order will fall upon them and things will be set straight.

I think you mean from a sociological point; but I'm referring more to natural order and natural chaos, rather than choice-driven human development of ourselves and our planet. And I don't see how the absence of war, famine, and murder necessarily correlate to "order," even sociologically speaking.

shunyadragon · Mar 20, 2007, 10:09 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Slevin57

Well from a philosophical point, we are constantly moving from Choas to Order.

There are differnt philosophies, which philosophy supports this?

Quote:

I cannot speculate as to how much Choas is out there, but I think we still have a bit to go. Wars, Famine, Murder, Rape and the icecapdes seem very Choatic to me. Hopefully one day order will fall upon them and things will be set straight.

If chaos exists it is because of ego of human vanities. In nature there is no chaos only order. Human violence and chaos will pass like the foam of a passing tide.

SoccerfreakAB2 · Mar 20, 2007, 10:11 pm

Quote:

Quote by: tman_ndsu08

No...

it doesn't matter if it's a closed system, open system, whatever.

Energy always tends to spread out.

Think of a room where half is filled with smoke. You remove the barrier and the smoke starts spreading from only half the room (more ordered) to fill the whole room evenly (less ordered).

Even if you then take all the walls of the room away, the smoke will still spread out forever, even if it never reaches a homeostasis.

Doesn't matter if you're pumping more smoke in or whatever.

It will always spread out as far as it can go.

I guess what I meant then was that I don't consider that spreading an "order" of the universe. A repeated function, yes, but wouldn't that just create more disorder elsewhere? I guess now is the convienent time to define "order" and "disorder" minus the assumptions either way of a closed or open universe.

**Jack** · Mar 21, 2007, 01:43 am

Quote:

Which is more dominant: Chaos or Order?

Order, most likely. But I'm rooting for a come-from-behind, last minute, by the nose win by chaos.

Slevin57 · Mar 21, 2007, 02:01 am

Since I'm multiple quoting here

Early Philosophers, Namely all of the Greek one's. The Greek people believed that the Universe originated as Chaos.

According to Hesiod...

In the beginning there was only Chaos, the Abyss
But then Gaia, the Earth, came into being,
Her broad bosom the ever-firm foundation for all,
And Tartaros, dim in the underground depths,
And Eros, loveliest of all the Immortals . . . (116-120)

Basically the poem speaks about how there was Chaos, then the earth, and eventually the Olympian Gods vs. Titans.

Greek Philosophers adopted this as their view on philosophy. That we are constantly moving between Chaos and Order. We try to move toward Order.

Chaos btw is Greek for "the abyss".

Mar 19, 2007, 04:53 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
StrongHeartsWin Open the cages! Posts: 1,774	Which is more dominant: Chaos or Order? People seem naturally to try and order their environment so that it can be understood or improved upon. Children if given a set of objects will soon go about either building something with them on an order that makes sense to them, or will perhaps categorize the objects by shape, size, or color. Even animals will order things at their disposable for their utility in a larger form (e.g. ants piling dirt granules to form a protective barrier around their holes). Is it truthful to say a “chaotic order” or “orderly chaos” or is it just semantical rhettoric of some sorts? I know it is oxymoronic but I am wondering if one is innately more truthful than another. Does the level on which we ask the question determine the dominance (e.g. individual or universal)? My home dining room table, desk, garden shed etc... seems to get chaotic with stuff everywhere, but I strive for order. Biological life seems to be built on order, but its breakdown to the state of death seems to be one of disorder and parts failure. Is parts failure indeed order? Is order ok to be malfunctioning? And what about social order and chaos? Do you have a particular incite or opinion on “chaos” and “order” and the link between them, particularly if one is more dominant than the other? If so, I`d be interested to hear about it. "FREE ME", song video by Goldfinger "Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet." --Albert Einstein

Mar 19, 2007, 05:51 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
StrongHeartsWin Open the cages! Posts: 1,774	What would be the highest or smallest level, and what would dominate there? Perhaps order dominates at the micro (querks -- but are their movements erratic or orderly) level and chaos dominates at the macro (universal)? It seems that arranging them in such a way looks orderly. Ughh ... If chaos and order dominate at different levels, then is that itself not chaotic? Or is it orderly? hmmmm... "FREE ME", song video by Goldfinger "Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet." --Albert Einstein

Mar 19, 2007, 04:22 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
SoccerfreakAB2 ???? Location: Novi. Michigan Posts: 2,163	I think a better word sometimes for "order" would be "pattern." That's what fascinates us a lot about nature--repetition, duration, beauty, etc. Living things, and I include atoms and molecules, strive for perfection in shape, size, and ultimately, efficiency. This is what we see as order. In the stellar world, however, there is only chaos, and the beauty of course that comes with the pretty colors and shapes of stellar gases. I think one major problem with our theories on space and time is that they are too ordered, and perhaps that's why we have only understood little of ideas like these. "Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but absolutely certainty is absurd." -Voltaire "I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of." -Clarence Darrow

Mar 20, 2007, 12:11 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
Jack formerly Isherwood Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 13,779	The TAO teaches we must have a balance in nature or else nothing could exist. Light defines dark, life is opposed to death, you can't be here unless you're not there. Chaos is the lack of order, order restrains chaos. What we perceive as the domination of one over the other is a result of scale and attention, as sdbest mentioned. I like chaos in some contexts, even order that appears chaotic. Smoke patters in the air or the swirls of creamer in my coffee are beautiful. They look just chaotic enough to be fascinating. The Forum Rules Radical Atheist Heathen Queer Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be. (Ashleigh Brilliant)

Mar 20, 2007, 08:32 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
atheist life junkie Location: CA Posts: 142	one defines the other, thus, we know everything yet know nothing, even these words are and aren't someone hand me a mic, a smoky bar + stage, and a hat i can cover my eyes with Sin is salvation. Without "sin" there wouldn't be a concept for "purity" and without a concept of "purity" one wouldn't be able to enter "heaven."

Mar 19, 2007, 05:37 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
sdbest Guest Posts: n/a	To a large extent, chaos and order are a matter of scale. Weather, for example, at a large scale appears chaotic and only marginally predictable in the short term. At the molecular level, the components that constitute weather--oxygen, nitrogen, water vapor, heat--are very ordered. At the quantum level, chaos again dominates. The same can be said for playing cards. One playing card is immutable and ordered. However 52 of them in a game of Texas Hold 'em can be very chaotic and almost entirely unpredictable. Regards S.

Mar 19, 2007, 08:25 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
Kuldeep Kuldeep Location: Bhopa, M.P, India Posts: 1,660	In a bit hurry, at the moment I can only tell: Chaos and Order are inter-related. Chaos occurs due to variety of reasons but goal of every type of Chaos is Order only. Order again gets converted to chaos due to many many reasons but, again the approach is back to order...this way cyle repeats!!!!

Mar 19, 2007, 07:17 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
tman_ndsu08 BANNED Posts: 5,021	The universe always trends from order to disorder. Entropy, it's called.

Mar 20, 2007, 02:24 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
Slevin57 Igneous Magma Posts: 438	Well from a philosophical point, we are constantly moving from Choas to Order. I cannot speculate as to how much Choas is out there, but I think we still have a bit to go. Wars, Famine, Murder, Rape and the icecapdes seem very Choatic to me. Hopefully one day order will fall upon them and things will be set straight.

Mar 21, 2007, 02:01 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
Slevin57 Igneous Magma Posts: 438	Since I'm multiple quoting here Early Philosophers, Namely all of the Greek one's. The Greek people believed that the Universe originated as Chaos. According to Hesiod... In the beginning there was only Chaos, the Abyss But then Gaia, the Earth, came into being, Her broad bosom the ever-firm foundation for all, And Tartaros, dim in the underground depths, And Eros, loveliest of all the Immortals . . . (116-120) Basically the poem speaks about how there was Chaos, then the earth, and eventually the Olympian Gods vs. Titans. Greek Philosophers adopted this as their view on philosophy. That we are constantly moving between Chaos and Order. We try to move toward Order. Chaos btw is Greek for "the abyss".