Which is more dominant: Chaos or Order?

[ZNFYRH]

I would have to say Order is more dominant simply because, based on my limited understanding of the forces of the universe, given enough time even the most random chaos eventually comes to some sort of order.

Case in point... Big Bang was when the universe was at 100% chaos. Then it slowly started ordering itself. What are gravity and molecular bonds and such if not just the re-establishment of order and balance?

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: ZNFYRH I would have to say Order is more dominant simply because, based on my limited understanding of the forces of the universe, given enough time even the most random chaos eventually comes to some sort of order. Case in point... Big Bang was when the universe was at 100% chaos. Then it slowly started ordering itself. What are gravity and molecular bonds and such if not just the re-establishment of order and balance?

The Big Bang was not an explosion as such and not good example of chaos. The expansion of the universe from a singularity, was a process that followed natural law no matter how chaotic it may appear to be.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Slevin57 Since I'm multiple quoting here Early Philosophers, Namely all of the Greek one's. The Greek people believed that the Universe originated as Chaos. According to Hesiod... In the beginning there was only Chaos, the Abyss But then Gaia, the Earth, came into being, Her broad bosom the ever-firm foundation for all, And Tartaros, dim in the underground depths, And Eros, loveliest of all the Immortals . . . (116-120) Basically the poem speaks about how there was Chaos, then the earth, and eventually the Olympian Gods vs. Titans. Greek Philosophers adopted this as their view on philosophy. That we are constantly moving between Chaos and Order. We try to move toward Order. Chaos btw is Greek for "the abyss".

Okay, this narrows the field to the more ancient philosophers that had a limited understanding of the nature of the universe. I do not believe many modern philosophers still believe in this concept.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 No... it doesn't matter if it's a closed system, open system, whatever. Energy always tends to spread out. Think of a room where half is filled with smoke. You remove the barrier and the smoke starts spreading from only half the room (more ordered) to fill the whole room evenly (less ordered). Even if you then take all the walls of the room away, the smoke will still spread out forever, even if it never reaches a homeostasis. Doesn't matter if you're pumping more smoke in or whatever.

It does matter whether a system is closed or open, because the relationship and nature of matter, energy and entropy is dependent on the nature of they system.

Energy and matter (smoke in the case of your example) does not always spread out. Gravity has an influence where matter tends to attract and come together. Electrical charge also has both attractive and repulsive forces. Some of the smoke particles will cluster and settle to the floor. If I put something in the room with an electrostatic charge, it may attract the smoke particles cluster on this object.

[Keith Hamburger]

Chaos theory tells us that order can randomly appear in chaotic systems. And, apparently ordered systems can fall apart into chaos from a single impetus.

Chaos theory and fractal geometry are built on recursive systems, or feedback loops. The universe is one huge recursive system. Anything that happens in one portion of the universe affects everything else around it, and that event will eventually come back to affect the original actor. On a smaller scale, a planet for example, those recursions become even more immediate. Across the scale of the universe recursion can take millenia, possibly tending towards eternity, in a community, the actions of one person can feed back through society and affect that person within hours, or less.

All in all, the universe as a whole tends to be quite entropic, and tending towards greater entropy, or disorder, or chaos. Thermodynamics tells us that, unless there is an external energy source to impose order, the universe will eventually tend towards maximum entropy, what has been termed "heat death" as previously mentioned in this thread.

However, since all portions of the universe affect all other portions in a recursive cycle, pockets of enthalpy, or order will inherntly arise. Life on our planet is just one such example. Out of the chaos of a gas cloud between the stars our own Sun and planetary system arose through the feedback system of gravity acting upon the uncountable numbers of particles that made up that gas cloud. Gravity, pulling everything together, and various forms of repulsive forces pushing everything apart, resulted in a system of planets with a sun in the center.

Out of this system, one planet happened to have the right conditions, with the right chemicals in place, for the feedback systems of chemical reactions under an enormous fusion furnace, to create life. (or, at the very least to sustain life that arose somewhere else) Over eons, that life, acting upon all of the other forms of life that arose in this system from whatever source, created what we know as man, a creature that is able to distinguish between chaos and order and bring the question, "Which is more dominant: Chaos or Order?"

Well, the final answer, as far as I can tell, is that within the local system we have here, the feedback systems in place have left us with a quite large pocket of order in a nearly infinite pool of chaos. There are many, many more such pockets of order, but, the vast majority of the universe is chaos. The feedback systems in place, however, will ensure that there will be numerous instances of order throughout the universe for many, many more eons.

Keith

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: SoccerfreakAB2 wouldn't that just create more disorder elsewhere?

Yes.

Energy concentrated (stars, planets) is ordered.

Energy less concentrated (asteroid belt) is less ordered.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: shunyadragon Gravity has an influence where matter tends to attract and come together.

Gravity is also by far the weakest force in the universe.

Emag easy overpowers the force of gravity.

Otherwise we'd all be sucked into the center of the Earth.

Electrical charge also has both attractive and repulsive forces.

And almost all atoms have electrons on the outside which repel the electrons on the outside of all other atoms. Hence the spreading.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Keith Hamburger Chaos theory tells us that order can randomly appear in chaotic systems. And, apparently ordered systems can fall apart into chaos from a single impetus.

I disagree with your statement that order can randomly appear in chaotic systems. Systems are not chaotic, and order does not randomly appear. The principles of Chaos Theory is that there is predictable repeating pattern in non-linear relationships in systems with multiple variables. What appears to random patterns, are not truely random, but vary within the perameters of non-linear equations in predicable patterns.

Chaos theory and fractal geometry are built on recursive systems, or feedback loops. The universe is one huge recursive system. Anything that happens in one portion of the universe affects everything else around it, and that event will eventually come back to affect the original actor. On a smaller scale, a planet for example, those recursions become even more immediate. Across the scale of the universe recursion can take millenia, possibly tending towards eternity, in a community, the actions of one person can feed back through society and affect that person within hours, or less.

Okay

All in all, the universe as a whole tends to be quite entropic, and tending towards greater entropy, or disorder, or chaos. Thermodynamics tells us that, unless there is an external energy source to impose order, the universe will eventually tend towards maximum entropy, what has been termed "heat death" as previously mentioned in this thread.

Thermodynamics does not tell us that there is an 'external energy source to impose order', this is an anthropomorphic view. The laws of existence and the nature of the matrix in which the universe exists likely impose the order. If the matrix the universe is in is infinite in space energy and matter there is no need for an external source. Entropy does not stand alone as the only principle governing the distribution of energy and matter in a matrix that the universe is in. The formation of singularities from which our universe formed indicates that there is likely attractive forces, ie gravity in the matrix where matter, smaller black hole and reminantes of previous universes attracts to a central point such as a super black hole until it forms a singularity that becomes unstable and expands again as another universe. This would a recursive cycle on a larger scale that reflects how our universe functions. This would be enthalpy on the grandest of scales.

However, since all portions of the universe affect all other portions in a recursive cycle, pockets of enthalpy, or order will inherntly arise. Life on our planet is just one such example. Out of the chaos of a gas cloud between the stars our own Sun and planetary system arose through the feedback system of gravity acting upon the uncountable numbers of particles that made up that gas cloud. Gravity, pulling everything together, and various forms of repulsive forces pushing everything apart, resulted in a system of planets with a sun in the center.

Okay, but I do not agree with 'out of chaos.'

Out of this system, one planet happened to have the right conditions, with the right chemicals in place, for the feedback systems of chemical reactions under an enormous fusion furnace, to create life. (or, at the very least to sustain life that arose somewhere else) Over eons, that life, acting upon all of the other forms of life that arose in this system from whatever source, created what we know as man, a creature that is able to distinguish between chaos and order and bring the question, "Which is more dominant: Chaos or Order?" Well, the final answer, as far as I can tell, is that within the local system we have here, the feedback systems in place have left us with a quite large pocket of order in a nearly infinite pool of chaos. There are many, many more such pockets of order, but, the vast majority of the universe is chaos. The feedback systems in place, however, will ensure that there will be numerous instances of order throughout the universe for many, many more eons. Keith

I do not consider the vaste universe as chaos. Everywhere I look I see order. What appears to be chaos is order expressed in the principles in the non-linear relationships of Chaos Theory.

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: shunyadragon I disagree with your statement that order can randomly appear in chaotic systems. Systems are not chaotic, and order does not randomly appear. The principles of Chaos Theory is that there is predictable repeating pattern in non-linear relationships in systems with multiple variables. What appears to random patterns, are not truely random, but vary within the perameters of non-linear equations in predicable patterns.

Did I anywhere in my post say anything about random?

However, Brownian motion, while obviously influenced by recursive factors, is about as close to random as anything in the universe can get. And, barring other forces, such as gravity which begins to have an influence when some of those particles undergoing Brownian motion, either through random chance or because of some ofther force, gather into clumps large enough to influence the nearby particles, is one of the predominate states of the universe.

Quote by: shunyadragon Okay Thermodynamics does not tell us that there is an 'external energy source to impose order', this is an anthropomorphic view. The laws of existence and the nature of the matrix in which the universe exists likely impose the order. If the matrix the universe is in is infinite in space energy and matter there is no need for an external source. Entropy does not stand alone as the only principle governing the distribution of energy and matter in a matrix that the universe is in. The formation of singularities from which our universe formed indicates that there is likely attractive forces, ie gravity in the matrix where matter, smaller black hole and reminantes of previous universes attracts to a central point such as a super black hole until it forms a singularity that becomes unstable and expands again as another universe. This would a recursive cycle on a larger scale that reflects how our universe functions. This would be enthalpy on the grandest of scales.

Actually, this was in response to the posts that mentioned that thermodynamics indicates that our universe is tending towards maximum entropy. And, this is a true result of the laws of thermodynamics. The only way this can be overcome is through an external source, the elimination of a closed system. This is the strongest argument against the Creationists claim that the laws of thermodynamics preclude the spontaneous generation of life, since the universe is tending towards maximum entropy. The fact is, the Earth is not a closed system. For the laws of thermodynamics to be overcome on a universal scale, the universe would have to be an open system, otherwise, according to the laws of thermodynamics, the universe is continually trending towards maximum entropy.

Quote by: shunyadragon Okay, but I do not agree with 'out of chaos.' I do not consider the vaste universe as chaos. Everywhere I look I see order. What appears to be chaos is order expressed in the principles in the non-linear relationships of Chaos Theory.

You dont' have to agree, the fact is, the universe is mostly chaotic. The pockets of order you see, stars and planetary systems and galaxies and galaxy clusters, are a minuscule percentage of the universe. Between those areas Brownian motion rules on vast scales, only slightly influenced by the gravitational fields of those pockets of order.

It is possible, but definitely not proven, that those pockets of order constitute the majority of the mass of the universe. But, in terms of volume, they are virtually non-existent.

Keith

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Keith Hamburger Did I anywhere in my post say anything about random?

Yes you did, you said, '. . . order randomly appears out of chaos.'

I believe that there is a pattern to the occurance of the galaxies and stars that does not reflect 'order that randomly appears.'

However, Brownian motion, while obviously influenced by recursive factors, is about as close to random as anything in the universe can get. And, barring other forces, such as gravity which begins to have an influence when some of those particles undergoing Brownian motion, either through random chance or because of some ofther force, gather into clumps large enough to influence the nearby particles, is one of the predominate states of the universe.

I do not consider 'Brownian motion' to be chaotic. It is definitely a well known predictable pattern of the relationship between atoms on their scale. I do not believe that the behavior of 'dark matter' (what ever it is?) and other matter interspursed between the galaxies is necessarily chaotic. Much of the behavior in the regions of space far removed from galaxies and stars is unknown.

Actually, this was in response to the posts that mentioned that thermodynamics indicates that our universe is tending towards maximum entropy. And, this is a true result of the laws of thermodynamics. The only way this can be overcome is through an external source, the elimination of a closed system. This is the strongest argument against the Creationists claim that the laws of thermodynamics preclude the spontaneous generation of life, since the universe is tending towards maximum entropy. The fact is, the Earth is not a closed system. For the laws of thermodynamics to be overcome on a universal scale, the universe would have to be an open system, otherwise, according to the laws of thermodynamics, the universe is continually trending towards maximum entropy.

The trend towards 'entropy' is apparent in relatively closed systems, but too much is unknown concerning the nature of our universe, black holes, and how singularities form. It is very possible that the equilibrium of the matrix, conservation of energy and matter, and gravity, balence entropy over time and space.

We do have a bit of different view of what is 'chaos'

You dont' have to agree, the fact is, the universe is mostly chaotic. The pockets of order you see, stars and planetary systems and galaxies and galaxy clusters, are a minuscule percentage of the universe. Between those areas Brownian motion rules on vast scales, only slightly influenced by the gravitational fields of those pockets of order. It is possible, but definitely not proven, that those pockets of order constitute the majority of the mass of the universe. But, in terms of volume, they are virtually non-existent. Keith

I believe the vaste areas between galaxies need more info to understand them. I believe that if we take what we know of our current history of our universe that there is a balence between entropy and enthalopy, that may be the key to understanding what the Infinite Matrix may be like.

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: shunyadragon We do have a bit of different view of what is 'chaos'

Yeah. I suppose we do. It appears that you believe that chaos doesn't exist for some philosophical reason, and I believe that there is at least something sufficiently random to be considered chaotic.

Oh well.

Guess we'll get nowhere with this one.

Keith

[tman_ndsu08]

I'll throw in that chaos is merely the lack of order in the same way that cold is the lack of heat.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Gravity is also by far the weakest force in the universe. Emag easy overpowers the force of gravity. Otherwise we'd all be sucked into the center of the Earth. And almost all atoms have electrons on the outside which repel the electrons on the outside of all other atoms. Hence the spreading.

True, but along with the spreading there is obviously a gathering. Gravity is indeed weak, but collectively it does influence the fate of existence.

[King Wrong]

Quote by: shunyadragon If chaos exists it is because of ego of human vanities. In nature there is no chaos only order. Human violence and chaos will pass like the foam of a passing tide.

I don't agree with your statement there is chaos in nature. There are animals that are territorial, and there are animals that overthrow their leaders. Chaos will always exists and there will always be order to bring back the equilibrium. I believe that fifty percent of the time there is order and the other fifty is chaos. John Lennon's "Imagine" is meaningless to me, because it doesn't bring mention the consequences of overpopulation or disease. In nature the predator population rises when the amount of prey is abundant, and when the amount of prey is low the the amount of predators decreases. This is proof of the equilibrium in nature. There will always be chaos and order to balance everything out.

[Century 25]

It's hands down.. no question.. Murphy rules.. entropy is da boss..!!

The universe may recycle.. but it is deja vous all over again.. lol

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: shunyadragon Gravity is indeed weak, but collectively it does influence the fate of existence.

It merely slows down the inevitable spreading.

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 It merely slows down the inevitable spreading.

While Mr. Dragon and I have disagreed on significant basic differences in this thread, I will have to take issue with this, on which he and I will likely agree.

Gravity goes far beyond "slowing down the inevitable". Gravity is the key force responsible for what I would consider the pockets of order, and Mr. Dragon would, apparently, consider the inevitable order in the universe.

We have life on Earth because gravity pulled together, and held together, a clump of matter that became, and is, our Solar System. While it is true that gravity is a relatively weak force it is responsible for the majority of what woudl be considered order within our universe.

Keith

[tman_ndsu08]

It is wholly responsible for energy order in the universe.


Simply, because it's weaker than Emag, order will become disorder.

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 It is wholly responsible for energy order in the universe. Simply, because it's weaker than Emag, order will become disorder.

Given the current state of knowledge of physics, yes. I'll accept that completely. Since Electro-Magnetism is a stronger force than gravitation, there is a strong argument that this will tend to the trend of entropy we see within the universe.

Mr. Dragon, however, would tend to a philosophical argument that order is inherent in the universe and, there is something we don't understand that forces order upon the universe, wherever he looks.

Keith

Before anyone accuses me of speaking for Mr. Dragon, please note that this is simply my interpretation of what I have read of his positions. I, in no way, am claiming to know the details of what goes on in his mind and I'm certain his future postings will further clarify his position.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Century 25 It's hands down.. no question.. Murphy rules.. entropy is da boss..!! The universe may recycle.. but it is deja vous all over again.. lol

If the universe recycles and is born again, chaos does not rule!!