Why donate? Why pay taxes?

[Athena]

I don't think anyone cares more about the health and spread of volconvo than I do. I put a lot of effort into continuing my education and making meaningful post, and am well aware of the time this take, and the personal cost of commiting my time and energy to volconvo.

However, long ago, it was firmly established that volconvo is privately owned and is an autocracy, not a democracy. That is, volconvo has an owner who ultimately holds all the power, like a king. Whenever he whims, any of us can be banned from posting. We have no power to effect change, except to may be convince the owner a change is a good idea, and we risk pissing him off and being banned if we fight too hard for what we think is right. I am already giving a lot to volconvo in the way of time and effort, and now the owner, who has made it clear that his word is law, and I can be banned if he so desires, is asking for money?

Does anyone see the politics in this? Why would anyone pay tribute to another? If a person pays taxes, should a person have a say in how they are spent? I hope all of those who attacked me for pointing out volconvo is not democratic but is autocratic, have a reply to my question of why anyone should donate, unless along with a donation is a democratic say in decisions.

Why should we vote for one representative and not another, unless that representative can actually represent us because s/he actually listens to us and knows how we want to be represented?

The US has fallen into autocracy, given up democratic responsibility and expecting their representatives to do everything for them, and they think they are paying people to govern for them when they pay taxes so they don't have to be informed and responsible. This is autocracy, it is a king taxing people and even taking their lives in wars he declares, and leaving them powerless to say how are they ruled.

I would love it if volconvo reached thousands of people, and I would be willing to donate money for this goal. However, only if volconvo becomes democratic instead of being privately owned and autocratic, am I willing to sacrifice more than my time and energy to volconvo. My bottom line is we have "Society, Rights and Duties" not the childish "Society and Rights", and a little agreement about the value and importance of democracy, before I give money to the cause.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Government is a democracy, privatley owned property is an autocracy of the owner. Jason always consults us when he's gonna make a change, and I've never seen someone banned who didn't deserve it.

[LtMisha]

Comrade/Comradess Athena has a point.
Taxes should be spent the way we want them (I'm talking about government taxes here) we should have a say in what our money goes on. Iv'e got no objections to how Volconvo is run.

Free Wales from English oppresion.

[5010]

What you are forgetting is that donations are autocratic too, and popularity is the sum of each autocratic choice to visit here or go elsewhere.

If the tyrant upsets the community, the community abandons the tyrant.

So although it is true that the site is under control of Jason, his desire for it to be popular is incentive for him to yield to the desires of the community.

One can see this in taxation as well. Consider America's New England history. Taxation without representation was one of the major factors in the revolution.

An interesting thing about progressive taxation comes from the way unequal tax rates benefit a majority. You end up with strange behavior of <10% taxpayers supporting >90% of the government finances. This seems very unfair that such a burden is shouldered by such a minority, until you realize that the government must cater to these special taxpayers or else they will simply move to Dubai. Not only is catering necessary but doing so secretly is also necessary to prevent upsetting the vast majority, who can fire the elected officials at the next election.

[PatrickHenry]

I see your point Athena, but the practical matters of administration come into view. A reliably benevolent absolute monarchy is preferable to a democracy that is chaotic and vulnerable to disinformation and subterfuge.

We must also recognize that Volconvo is a business enterprise. It was created from an idea by its founder, then purchased and operated in a businesslike manner by its present owner. As 5010 notes, unpopular decisions may be bad for business, so the current of events here is somewhat self-correcting.

The members here are both the source of content and the means to revenue and a positive cash flow.. Can an individual member get kicked out just because the owner opposes their views? The answer is a qualified "yes," but the owner is faced with certain imperatives.

Various viewpoints are conducive to debate, the stated purpose of the site. By ejecting controversial views, the diversity is diminished and the quality of debate impoverished. So the owner has incentives to retain even those who are opponents of his stance on the issues.

And I don't think Jason is an idealogue. He seems like a pragmatist.

[Athena]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Government is a democracy, privatley owned property is an autocracy of the owner. Jason always consults us when he's gonna make a change, and I've never seen someone banned who didn't deserve it.

, kings consulted with their chosen few too.

Why should I donate money to a privately owned kingdon? Why would anyone donate money to something that is privately owned, when this person has no authority or decision making power?

[Athena]

Quote by: PatrickHenry I see your point Athena, but the practical matters of administration come into view. A reliably benevolent absolute monarchy is preferable to a democracy that is chaotic and vulnerable to disinformation and subterfuge. We must also recognize that Volconvo is a business enterprise. It was created from an idea by its founder, then purchased and operated in a businesslike manner by its present owner. As 5010 notes, unpopular decisions may be bad for business, so the current of events here is somewhat self-correcting. The members here are both the source of content and the means to revenue and a positive cash flow.. Can an individual member get kicked out just because the owner opposes their views? The answer is a qualified "yes," but the owner is faced with certain imperatives. Various viewpoints are conducive to debate, the stated purpose of the site. By ejecting controversial views, the diversity is diminished and the quality of debate impoverished. So the owner has incentives to retain even those who are opponents of his stance on the issues. And I don't think Jason is an idealogue. He seems like a pragmatist.

If the owner wants to charge a fee for providing something from which he hoped to profit, fine. Charge the fee, but I am not "donating" money to something that is privately owned by someone hoping to make a profit, knowing I will not share in the monetary benefits if this forum becomes as successful as MySpace. We are already "donating" our time and energy.

The autocratic thinking here alarms me. There is nothing is wrong with one person profitting from the work of many? I mean, look at the bigger picture, the reality we actually live. Arguing for the rights of the owner/king, doesn't set well with me. I don't care if Jason is ideology or pragmatic. The question is why should I "donate" money to something that can only profit him? Why should the working class, pay taxes when they really have no political power?

The French revolution came about, in part, because the aristrocrats were previlleged and weren't the ones to pay taxes. The peasants were taxed and had no political power. We fought a revolution against this mentality and people are arguing the right of it?

[pam699]

you are correct athena spot on in every thing
it appears no one agrees with you beacuse like in kingdoms most courtiers where brownnosers -same thing here all autocracy have brownnosers --u cant ecxpet them to agrre with the obvious -brownnosers brownnose cos they are crawlers looking for some scape the king may throw their way just like his dogs sit around his table slavering for bones

[Athena]

Quote by: LtMisha Comrade/Comradess Athena has a point. Taxes should be spent the way we want them (I'm talking about government taxes here) we should have a say in what our money goes on. Iv'e got no objections to how Volconvo is run. Free Wales from English oppresion.

I do have an objection. I object to Society and Rights without Duty. Society and Rights is good for children, not for adults. The idea of democracy, or self government, is that the people have a duty to the state, and take responsibility for what their representatives and government does. But because it is not "popular" to speak of "duty", we have the mentality of children, whining when we don't get our way and blaming instead of taking responsibility. This is a political disaster! Volconvo has no nothing to offer me but a chance to change this consciousness, and I will donate money, only if volconvo serves my purpose. Why else should give money to volconvo?

Further more, while volconvo is very polite at this time, I remember a spell when everyone was acting like a pack of wild dogs attacking a man who said is dying, and those in power defended this intolerable behavior. People were violating the rules, and the rules not inforced, because it was assumed the man is lying and deserved being attacked. This is taking tyranny too far! First off the man may have been lying, and that still doesn't make acting like a pack of wild dogs right. Secondly, I am strongly in favor of rule by law, but volconvo is rule by the owners and moderators whims. And, when I argued my objections, I was reminded I could be banned. Unless the thinking on this changes, I am not giving my money to tyrants.

How human beings act, depends on social pressure, not just the power of the king to control people. This king wants all the power, and will excommunicate a citizen who argues against this power of authority and for social cooperation too strongly. I am not giving such a king my money. He may enjoy the benefits of people arguing, but you best not argue too strongly against him.

[Athena]

Quote by: pam699 you are correct athena spot on in every thing it appears no one agrees with you beacuse like in kingdoms most courtiers where brownnosers -same thing here all autocracy have brownnosers --u cant ecxpet them to agrre with the obvious -brownnosers brownnose cos they are crawlers looking for some scape the king may throw their way just like his dogs sit around his table slavering for bones

I think you made a good point. Of course those closest to the king will defend this order of things.

The best way to learn history, is to experience it. I love this thread, because it is a real experience in the age old debate about the previllege of power and who should pay the bills.

[Praxius]

Ath... I think you might be getting something mixed up here..... A donation is not a tax..... a tax is forced, a donation is by your choice.... you chose to donate money.... the agreement was right there in front of you when you did it.... all you get is a badge on your name and the ability to post in these forums a bit longer, until they run out of money and shut down.

If you don't feel you are getting enough bang for your buck in this forum, then just stop donating..... nobody is forcing you to.

If you donate blood, what do you expect in return? You get some cookies and a pat on the back.... you don't get a say in who get's your blood or how they use it..... same thing here.

Now if you were paying in shares for this web site, that would be a different situation.

As it goes for taxes in the government.... yeah.. that's Fubar.

As it is now in our society, we pay taxes not to have a say in what our government does, we pay taxes so we don't goto jail.

Ath, you have to realize that Volconvo is just like every other online forum... at least all the other forums I have been to in the last decade. They all have similar rules and regulations, and the mods are all pretty much the same as in here, if not worse. I have seen forums where the mods were no better then some of the members..... they would ban for the sake of banning, because they couldn't bother with warnings.

Bottom line I am saying, is this is developed and run by the moderators here, and they can do whatever they deem fit to do.... If you do not agree with them, then you can go and make your own forum in your own image..... much like how when I design my own web site, I make it the way I want to and how I want it to look like. Those who view it, can see my art, can post comments, but they don't have any rights to change things in my site, even if they paid me.

The internet is not a democracy.

[atheist]

Praxis is right. There is a HUGE difference between taxes and donations.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: Athena , kings consulted with their chosen few too. Why should I donate money to a privately owned kingdon? Why would anyone donate money to something that is privately owned, when this person has no authority or decision making power?

Cause you like what the private kingdom does. I wouldn't mind a monarchy if i was in the chosen few, as long as he wasn't like stalin, purging his inner circle. When Jason anounces a five year plan, then I'll get worried.

[Athena]

Quote by: PatrickHenry I see your point Athena, but the practical matters of administration come into view. A reliably benevolent absolute monarchy is preferable to a democracy that is chaotic and vulnerable to disinformation and subterfuge. We must also recognize that Volconvo is a business enterprise. It was created from an idea by its founder, then purchased and operated in a businesslike manner by its present owner. As 5010 notes, unpopular decisions may be bad for business, so the current of events here is somewhat self-correcting. The members here are both the source of content and the means to revenue and a positive cash flow.. Can an individual member get kicked out just because the owner opposes their views? The answer is a qualified "yes," but the owner is faced with certain imperatives. Various viewpoints are conducive to debate, the stated purpose of the site. By ejecting controversial views, the diversity is diminished and the quality of debate impoverished. So the owner has incentives to retain even those who are opponents of his stance on the issues. And I don't think Jason is an idealogue. He seems like a pragmatist.

If volconvo is a business, shouldn't Jason being asking for investors, instead of donators? We are already donating our time and effort. If this business wants our money too, that should be investment with a chance of a return, and that is not a half bad idea.

[Athena]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Cause you like what the private kingdom does. I wouldn't mind a monarchy if i was in the chosen few, as long as he wasn't like stalin, purging his inner circle. When Jason anounces a five year plan, then I'll get worried.

No! If Jason wants money, that should be our investment and we should have a chance of a return on our money. It boogles my mind that you would argue for donating to a king. I have long been aware of the male tendency to be loyal to the king or military leader. It seems males are more prone to being loyal and submitting to male leaders, than they are loyal to their wives and children, whom they have historically held beneath them. Kind of like racism and holding an entire is inferior, while justifying exploiting them.

I will not be happy until the "Society & Rights", is "Society, Rights and Duties", and I see the conflict in male loyalty to Jason, and my insistance that I have a say in what is so for my money, and think a business asks for investors, not donators. The equality of democracy would probably not exist without women, because males do seem willing to bow to the king.

Duties, we have duties in a democracy, and our rights depend on them. And those in control of volconvo are males, so they have the power, that doesn't make them right. I am not "donating" to males who bow to the king! I am writing for a public that may see the wrong of your thinking.

[Gods_Mercenary]

I'll agree that males like to feel part of a cause that means something, to feel special and important (and powerful) above feeling honest to their ideals. Males are obviously succeptable to promises of military glory, due to their love of having a clear enemy to shame. Men are easier to swallow in with camradery, which is what leads males to be unquestioning followers, the feeling that your brothers are depending on you (and your womenfolk, to an extent). But Females are also more prone to do things to fit in, to submit to someone who they deem better than themselves, whereas men would rebel against someone who they deem above them (mainly due to their hatred of feeling shamed. Both sexes will sacrafice ideals for a position of power. (or a donor badge :))

I'd remind you that this is not a business, Jason apparently makes no real profit (it would seem he's in the red) It's more like Jason's hobby, creating an environment for us to debate in.

And I never said my thinking is right, giving up your ideals for a position of favor in the king's eyes is very probably not right. But then again, democracy isn't that high up on my list of ideals, my sense of justice and morality come before, and a dictatorship that provides these is better than a democracy that doesn't. Plus, I admit my own weakness, I may very well submit to il duce for a slice of the pie.

[pahl]

The thing is that we are in Jasons house now, and hes been letting us stay here because he likes the community. And now he is asking for those who can to help out a bit. It hardly seems fair to say that he shouldent be allowed to do what he wants on hes own property just because we have been allowed to spend time there.

If he tells us to get the hell out we should, and if he says that he cant keep this up without more money, and he would like donations if we expect it to last then i think we have even less reason to complain. Id expect my guest to respect my property in the same way.

And i see no king, but i know how to behave if im a guest. I always have the freedom of leaving.

[Athena]

Quote by: atheist Praxis is right. There is a HUGE difference between taxes and donations.

There is not suppose to be a huge difference between taxes and donations. That is why we are suppose to have representation. It is suppose to be in our power to control things like taxes and spenditures.

The best reason for paying taxes is I benefit from the things tax dollars pay for. The best reason for donating to this site, is to prevent it from becoming non existant. However, if that is a real possibility perhaps I should shop around. I seriously would perfer a site where people understood the importance of duty and the relationship of duty to rights. A site with a more mature perspective than children thinking only about what they want, and whining when a parent government isn't giving them what they want. A Society with Rights and no Duties, is for children.

[Athena]

Quote by: pahl The thing is that we are in Jasons house now, and hes been letting us stay here because he likes the community. And now he is asking for those who can to help out a bit. It hardly seems fair to say that he shouldent be allowed to do what he wants on hes own property just because we have been allowed to spend time there. If he tells us to get the hell out we should, and if he says that he cant keep this up without more money, and he would like donations if we expect it to last then i think we have even less reason to complain. Id expect my guest to respect my property in the same way. And i see no king, but i know how to behave if im a guest. I always have the freedom of leaving.

Are you staying with Jason without contributing to the Jason community in which you live? I mean like, is this all take and no give? You may know how to behave as a good child, but what of being a good adult? That is the difference between Society and Rights, and Society, Rights & Duties. It is when we speak of duties that we speak of being grown up.

And then you are asking us to donate to a house hold in which we don't live, so you can live there free, gaining this Right by being pleasing to Jason? Is that what this is all about? :eek:

Maybe you mean we all are in Jason's house when read or post on volconvo?
In that case, I am contributing my time and energy, and otherwise feel on the outside of the community, because I stand alone with my opinions. I do not feel included in any sense of community, and it was made very, very clear, I should not expect to be included, because the forum is privately owned. Like what I want doesn't mean anything to anyone but me. A while back things got very unpleasant and I left for weeks, because Jason didn't care what I thought or felt. It is kind of like having a representative who doesn't represent me. My tax dollars may support him/her but as was said, taxes are not a donation, and when the opportunity arises, I will vote out of office those who don't serve me. On volconvo, we don't vote for our leadership.

When we pay taxes, we are investing in our country. We can expect to get something back. What is volconco giving? It is not the social awareness that I value and would be willing to pay for. If you want to sell something, you need to know what someone wants to buy. Volconvo wants my money and doesn't care what I want. I am not represented, as volconvo is privately owned.

Athens became a democracy in part for philosophical reasons, but mostly because they need to defend Athens and didn't have anything to offer the people needed for war, but a say in government. I like having a sense that what I think is right and wrong matters, and Jason made if very clear, it is does not.

[Athena]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary I'll agree that males like to feel part of a cause that means something, to feel special and important (and powerful) above feeling honest to their ideals. Males are obviously succeptable to promises of military glory, due to their love of having a clear enemy to shame. Men are easier to swallow in with camradery, which is what leads males to be unquestioning followers, the feeling that your brothers are depending on you (and your womenfolk, to an extent). But Females are also more prone to do things to fit in, to submit to someone who they deem better than themselves, whereas men would rebel against someone who they deem above them (mainly due to their hatred of feeling shamed. Both sexes will sacrafice ideals for a position of power. (or a donor badge :)) I'd remind you that this is not a business, Jason apparently makes no real profit (it would seem he's in the red) It's more like Jason's hobby, creating an environment for us to debate in. And I never said my thinking is right, giving up your ideals for a position of favor in the king's eyes is very probably not right. But then again, democracy isn't that high up on my list of ideals, my sense of justice and morality come before, and a dictatorship that provides these is better than a democracy that doesn't. Plus, I admit my own weakness, I may very well submit to il duce for a slice of the pie.

Excellent- in a dictatorship citizens don't have duties that advance the well being of all. In a democracy citizens do have duties that advance the well being of all. A dictatorship can tax the people and spend the money without the consent of the tax payers. In a democracy, nothing is to be done without the consent of people. Under a dictatorship, people do not have liberty, and their thoughts of right and wrong mean nothing. In a democracy, liberty is the individual the right to determine right and wrong, and what the people believe is right or wrong, matters very much.

I think we are clarifying why the forums have Society & Rights and not Society, Rights and Duties. The majority would rather have a good lion king or dictator, and no individual responsibility for the benefit s/he thinks a good king/dictator should give them. So why did we take out Saddam. The Iraqis had the highest living standard in the mid east and would have had even more if it hadn't been for the sanctions imposed for the purpose of weakening Saddam and Iraqis resistance to a US take over. This debates are proving just how unjust that invasion was, because there is no one to fight for democracy. Everyone wants a good "lion king", a good Hitler, a good dictator. Saddam was very good for the Iraqis who mattered. As he turned to India and China to market oil in Euro's, Iraq stood to greatly benefit. The people posting here don't want democracy, so who is our enemy, why?

No duties, no rights, just previlleges a dictator may grant or take away.