Mathematican dont even know what numbers are they dont know what they talking about

[pikatore]

This thread is just insanity. What planet did (a) your ideas, and (b) your grammar come from?

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: another day Enough with these idiotic threads. You make no sense. Seriously, can an admin step in? She's ruining the forum. Most of these threads have nothing to do with philosophy or religion.

Hmmm, your saying discussing mans use of language, and math is not "philosophy"? I have to disagree.

[pam699]

so mm420 has hit the nail on the head when he says
"Numbers are no more "real" than is the law of gravity or genes on a chromosome; they are all concepts that humans use to describe events in the "real" world, like a rock falling to the earth or waves in a pond. But to suppose we know nothing of these concepts, or that all our knowledge of them rests solely on faith, doesn't take into account that the predictions about the "real" world we make based on their "existence" generally are correct."

he is admitting mathematicians dont know wat numbers are and that there is a mystery as to why and how it all works-no beter than the witch doctor dancing to make rain

THANK YOU MM420 some finally admitts the obvious that dean has been saying all along

[Zinkovich]

Quote by: pikatore This thread is just insanity. What planet did (a) your ideas, and (b) your grammar come from?

Austrailia, or so it appears.

[another day]

Quote by: Milton Bradley Hmmm, your saying discussing mans use of language, and math is not "philosophy"? I have to disagree.

To be honest, I cannot and will not read anything she writes...it's just too nonsensical. "Mathematicians dont even know what numbers are they dont know what they talking about"

[Jack]

But to suppose we know nothing of these concepts, or that all our knowledge of them rests solely on faith, doesn't take into account that the predictions about the "real" world we make based on their "existence" generally are correct." he is admitting mathematicians dont know wat numbers are and that there is a mystery as to why and how it all works-no beter than the witch doctor dancing to make rain

These two opinions are contradictory. Which observation do you agree with? And by the way, he's not "admitting" anything, he's expressing his opinion, just like everyone else here.
What's with this single-minded fascination with Dean anyway?

[pam699]

well "another day" to end the debet is simple just tell us wat an irrational number is and point to its position on a real line

[nm420]

Quote by: pam699 so mm420 has hit the nail on the head when he says "Numbers are no more "real" than is the law of gravity or genes on a chromosome; they are all concepts that humans use to describe events in the "real" world, like a rock falling to the earth or waves in a pond. But to suppose we know nothing of these concepts, or that all our knowledge of them rests solely on faith, doesn't take into account that the predictions about the "real" world we make based on their "existence" generally are correct." he is admitting mathematicians dont know wat numbers are and that there is a mystery as to why and how it all works-no beter than the witch doctor dancing to make rain THANK YOU MM420 some finally admitts the obvious that dean has been saying all along

No, I'm afraid that's not what I'm admitting at all. Yes, there is a mystery to numbers, and mathematics in general, just as there is mystery associated with everything we observe. If there were no mysteries, we would be rather godlike in our knowledge and power, yet this is obviously not the case.

I will even grant that, in a very technical sense, mathematicians don't know what numbers are, any more than any of us know what anything is. But this sort of epistemological nihilism is rather unsatisfying when we speak of knowledge. Not to mention that this stance has nothing to do with mathematics specifically, so I see no point in singling it out to argue that we can know nothing.

Yet there is a very real difference between a mathematician's knowledge of numbers and a witch-doctor's knowledge of meteorology. While it is usually not acknowledged, math can be thought of as a natural science, in that hypotheses are formed and tested in a continuing process to arrive nearer the truth. Shamen and witch doctors and clerics and other "spiritual" leaders generally do not rest their knowledge on this process. Rather, the knowledge is inherited from ancestors (coming from various origins), and is left untested. They may "add" to this knowledge by imagining some bit of information and proclaiming it to be true, and may even think they have infallible evidence of its verity via personal observation and anecdotal evidence (which are heavily subject to observer bias and thus disfavored for peer-review in a scientific setting). Regardless, the "knowledge" brought in to a rain dance is a collection of bits of folklore without any rational groundwork to base it upon, while a mathematician may point out (at least in theory!) every assumption and logical rule used to build any bit of knowledge of numbers they have.

Further, your insistence that we be able to point out an irrational on the real line is rather absurd, considering that the "real line" is a purely visual aid that we have constructed to strengthen our intuitive grasp of real numbers. Given that, it is facile to find any real number on the real line. Draw a line, pick one point on it and call that "0" (though it could be anything else), pick another point and call that your desired number. You can determine the location of any other real number on that line from the scale chosen by those two points. Of course you won't be able to pinpoint it down to an infinitely small precision, but at the very least you will always be able to know if it goes to the left or right of any other given number. These are well-established properties of numbers that have been known for millenia, though only relatively recently given a logical framework.

This concern about what a "number" really is threw most of the entire community in a frenzy near the turn of the last century, and from it set theory emerged. Needless to say, all of the known number systems have been subsequently given rational explanations. If you truly doubt the mathematical community's claims about "number", study set theory and find a specific problem with it. Certainly not all set theoretic axioms are accepted universally in the community, but you will be hard-pressed to find a serious mathematician who believes our knowledge of number is akin to that of rain dances.

[pam699]

once you admitt quote
will even grant that, in a very technical sense, mathematicians don't know what numbers are, any more than any of us know what anything is.

we can really strat looking for some answrs because it enables us then to break out of a striaght jacket of a mind set which keeps us locked inmto old ways of thinking
once you admitt there is a mystery we can start loking to solve it this is what colin leslie deans vierw enable us to to do finaly reach for the mystery of the universe and perhaps solve some of them -rather than just sitting there accepting school text book lessons on an old way of thinking -AYOU SHOULD THANK COLIN LESLIE DEAN for allowing you to see the mystery and look for its solution

[Zinkovich]

Oh, I see now. You've found religion in the form of colin dean. If that's the case, I don't see the use in speaking to you anymore about these concepts when you have your mind made up- have fun with your newfound "nonconfomism" in the guise of conforming to Deans nonconfoming words.

Me? I'll be over somewhere else on these forums, away from your attempts to convert me.

It's a shame though, these concepts are interesting- too bad you don't seem to want an actual dialogue or discussion, because I would have been more than happy to give one to you.

[pam699]

once you admitt quote
will even grant that, in a very technical sense, mathematicians don't know what numbers are, any more than any of us know what anything is.

there is a mystery which needs to be looked at
you running away shows yiu cant answer the debet

[Zinkovich]

Quote by: pam699 once you admitt quote will even grant that, in a very technical sense, mathematicians don't know what numbers are, any more than any of us know what anything is. there is a mystery which needs to be looked at you running away shows yiu cant answer the debet

That wasn't him, that was me. Saying so won't change that reality for you either if you respond, so obviously your powers to resist my words are lacking and I am manipulating you as if I was some sort of God.

FEAR ME. I CONTROL YOU.

[pam699]

come on the debet is now getting interesting with this admisssuion

once you admitt quote
will even grant that, in a very technical sense, mathematicians don't know what numbers are, any more than any of us know what anything is.

there is a mystery which needs to be looked at

so lets look for the solution of the mystery COME ON PEOPLE

[Zinkovich]

Quote by: pam699 come on the debet is now getting interesting with this admisssuion once you admitt quote will even grant that, in a very technical sense, mathematicians don't know what numbers are, any more than any of us know what anything is. there is a mystery which needs to be looked at so lets look for the solution of the mystery COME ON PEOPLE

Numbers are a differentiation of pieces of matter for the purpose of giving quantity. It uses reference to understand certain structures, and what would happen without them.

For example, one apple. One red thing you eat. You can eat that one apple, it is different from the chair. However, we add the apple and the chair together as pieces of matter. There are 58080809358058080 atoms altogether making up these objects. These objects give off energy fields, and are literal energy. Still on the apple-based reference you can only eat the matter that falls within "the one apple" and be "one healthy human", which is also not "one chair".

This is what math represents to me. Measuring things that, once differentiated, have different qualities and functions. Perhaps anyone would like to correct me?

[pam699]

but irrational numbers are used in mathematics to get result so point on a line where some irrational number is - mathamticians cant tell us what they are except by some circular maths defdinition just like the anceient greeks once defined irrational numbers not to be nmbers so if they dont exit how can they creast things that work -LETS LOOK AT THAT MYSTERY

[Jack]

You seem to have an issue with grammaticists, philosophers and mathematicians, but I'm not sure what it is or why.

It's a real mental exercise to wring meaning from your posts.

[nm420]

Quote by: pam699 once you admitt quote will even grant that, in a very technical sense, mathematicians don't know what numbers are, any more than any of us know what anything is.

In case you hadn't noticed, this part of my post was intended to illustrate the absurdity of your claims. If we can know nothing, what the hell are we doing talking about knowledge?

we can really strat looking for some answrs because it enables us then to break out of a striaght jacket of a mind set which keeps us locked inmto old ways of thinking once you admitt there is a mystery we can start loking to solve it this is what colin leslie deans vierw enable us to to do finaly reach for the mystery of the universe and perhaps solve some of them -rather than just sitting there accepting school text book lessons on an old way of thinking -AYOU SHOULD THANK COLIN LESLIE DEAN for allowing you to see the mystery and look for its solution

I've yet to see what your precious author provides to help us explain the mysteries of the universe. Knowledge, at its very core, is orderly and not chaotic, yet Dean wishes to destroy our scientific reasoning because it imposes an artificial order on the world? How then are we to learn anything? All of the knowledge that we have of the world comes about through the assumption that orderly patterns exist, with careful and persistent observations eventually uncovering these mysteries. As I said, there is much mystery to the mathematical world; so much that anyone with a curious mind could easily occupy their entire life making personal discoveries and still not come close to being sated. But, as I said, this does not negate the knowledge that humanity has accumulated; just because one doesn't know every single potential thing there is to know about a subject doesn't imply they know nothing about it.

The mystery of the world is freely granted by anyone familiar with scientific reasoning, yet you seem to neglect the fact that the entire point of scientific inquiry is to search for the answers to these mysteries. Science in general and mathematics in particular have a pretty good track record at solving these mysteries, so I really have no idea what "straight-jacket" you are alluding to.

[pam699]

but scientific reasoning and physical results are based on numbers to some degree and mathamticians cant tell us wht they are so there is a mystery in regard to how it all works
YOU SAY THIS YOURSELF quote
As I said, there is much mystery to the mathematical world; so much that anyone with a curious mind could easily occupy their entire life making personal discoveries and still not come close to being sated.

so lets try and solve that mystery

[Zinkovich]

Thier thoughts, being believed, created a mathematical reality?

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: pam but scientific reasoning and physical results are based on numbers to some degree and mathamticians cant tell us wht they are so there is a mystery in regard to how it all works

You have it the wrong way round. It is numbers which are based on science and physical results. That's why numbers exist in the first place; to describe the world around us.