Aboriginal dreamtime ontology

[pam699]

It is claimed that the ontology of the australian aboriginal dreamtime is complex and differs throughout australia. Some tribes believe reality is parralle with the dreamtime other say it is within this reality other say dreamtime finished and is in the past others say it is parralle to but a few years behnd this currrent reality

WHAT DO YOU THINK

You can see threse ideas in these two books The australian aboriginal dreamtime http://gamahucherpress.yellowgum.com...DREAMTIME1.pdf

The religions of the pre-contact victorian aborigines http://gamahucherpress.yellowgum.com...aborigines.pdf

[Captain Chaos]

I think it is dreams.

I do believe that there are some events that tap into aspects of existence outside of our reality. But, without some sort of hint that the dreamtime has an objective reality, I am inclined to believe it is just people dreaming.

[pam699]

but the aborigines say dreams are the window into the dreamtme

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: pam699 but the aborigines say dreams are the window into the dreamtme

People say lots of things.

If you and I both got to Walmart, we can independently observe things happening at Walmart, and later compare notes. This allows us to confirm a reasonable probability that Walmart possess some objective reality.

Can this be done with the Dreamtime?

[pam699]

well amongst the aborigines it can -but u take the scientist word for it that reality is the way it is you have not confirmed everything you belive in -but you still take them to be truth even though you have not seen a nurtino or meason or a black hole

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Pam well amongst the aborigines it can

How do they obtain confirmatory information? If they can do this, testing it should not be too difficult.

but u take the scientist word for it that reality is the way it is you have not confirmed everything you belive in -but you still take them to be truth even though you have not seen a nurtino or meason or a black hole

I have indeed seen images of a black hole. Personally, there are many things that I do not just assume to be true within physics.

The subatomic particles can be observed, indirectly. These observations can be confirmed by different people. In fact, the various characterizations of some of these particles, especially neutrinos, varies widely from one theory to the next.

What information can be independently observed by multiple parties about the Dreamtime?

[jose]

IMHO Dream time reflects the things that are playing on your mind, if you take into account the law of attraction, these are things that could come to pass for you, and need your attention, choose your dream with care

[pam699]

just as you say

The subatomic particles can be observed, indirectly. as a form of proof for you same with some aborigines they can obswerve it indirectly -if good enbough prove for your science why not good enough proof for the dreamtime

[pam699]

also you have not verified or confirmed personaly every scientific theory you just take it as true based upon your beliefe in expets
these same experts have been wrong . Their ideas caled theories. AND for 100s of years these theories have been proven wrong when at the time they where considered ttruth
so why cant you do the same for the dreamtime based upon their experts

why you privliging one expert from another -even when your expersts have been proven wrong for 100s of years about their theories

[Zinkovich]

why you privliging one expert from another -even when your expersts have been proven wrong for 100s of years about their theories

Give me some examples, if you are speaking as an expert on these wrongs.

Besides which, this colin dean guy says everything is an illusion brought on by human perception and language, or somesuch- if this is the case, science is about as true as your dreamtime, is it not? I don't see why you would be so much against science, or any viewpoint for that manner, if all it takes is acting and believing within the viewpoint for you to work and exist within it's resulting mores and laws.

That said, I have observed most of the things on which I base my opinions. I actually do seek out my experiences- and have seen particles through electron microscopes, fossils, etc., and amongst all I have seen everything occurs with a logical uniformity. So far, I have gone to the point of seeking out numerous metaphysicists of many stripes, and what have they had to show me so far? Nothing. Nada.

Edit: That said, I may have had a hostile tone in my first few posts- I want to say I am not hostile towards your philosophy, as I am in a disagreement in it considering my state of self-reference. I cannot base things on anything other than my experience and the ones analogous to it, and yours and mine/colin's aren't exactly squaring together right- that's all I have been trying to get across in my posts.

[pam699]

u want an example of a scientific theory being wrong -quite simply put the Bohr theory of the atom as a minitue solar system- now quantum theory say it is a mess of probablity distrubions. And at a bigger level classical physics proved a wrong theory to investigate subatomic world

[pam699]

so why is it you can accept your cultures ie science belife without confirming every one of them and just taking the expersts word and you condem the aborigines for accepting their experts -they see confirmation of the dreamtime in ever as[ect of the lanscape just as you se confirmation of an ordered universe in every aspect of the scientific world

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: pam699 so why is it you can accept your cultures ie science belife without confirming every one of them and just taking the expersts word and you condem the aborigines for accepting their experts

Well, because we're trying to have a productive society here.


If everybodies dreams have to be considered, we will be mired in superstition, and delusion. ( As if we are not in deep enough already )

[pam699]

quote

f everybodies dreams have to be considered, we will be mired in superstition, and delusion. ( As if we are not in deep enough already )

where not all those scientific theories that where beileved but turned out false not delusions and superstition -is not the unproved scientific view that the universe is orderd and that the lawes of physics not change superstiion

to the aborigine they see confirmaton of their onltology evey day just like u see confiormation of yours
why r u correct and them wrong -bit ethnocentric arrogance and a bit of a self-serving circluasr arguments you are making -privliageing your ontology as the best in the universe

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: pam699 just as you say The subatomic particles can be observed, indirectly. as a form of proof for you same with some aborigines they can obswerve it indirectly -if good enbough prove for your science why not good enough proof for the dreamtime

Can facts about the dreamtime be independently verified? That is what I am looking for. I am quite open to considering your beliefs, just link me to the evidence.

also you have not verified or confirmed personaly every scientific theory you just take it as true based upon your beliefe in expets

You don't know me. Truly, I do not do that. For example, Einsteinian explanations of spacetime just don't add up for me. The very idea that spacetime is smooth and not granular is entirely unintuitive for me.

I see no reason for there to be a planck length - a smallest meaningful unit of space - unless spacetime is granular.

So, no, I do not take what scientists say at face value. Hopefully, most scientists are not doing that either.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: pam699 so why is it you can accept your cultures ie science belife without confirming every one of them and just taking the expersts word and you condem the aborigines for accepting their experts -they see confirmation of the dreamtime in ever as[ect of the lanscape just as you se confirmation of an ordered universe in every aspect of the scientific world

Pam...

I am prone to believing in things that make sense to me. I just want to see some decent study evidence to support your claim. If people can enter the dreamtime and independently verify things they find there, then it should be quite easy to study.



Let me add to this:

1) I have had literally hundreds of out-of-body experiences.

2) I am aware of at least one serious researcher into the effects of ketamine who, after years of study, has altered his beliefs so that he now believes that spiritual ketamine experience might very well tap into other realities.

3) The life review, a component of many near death experiences across all cultures, has components that are more easily explained by the idea of tapping into another reality, than by purely materialistic explanations.

4) M theory, the theory of physics that currently provides the greatest explanatory power, points to a multiverse. If M theory is correct about this, then the idea that there are other realities would not contradict what we know of physics.



Basically, this and other evidence supports the idea that the dreamtime is possible. However, being possible does not make it so. In order for me to believe in it, or to raise my assessment of the probability of its existence, I need reason and evidence. I apply this standard to all things, including science, religion, and 'spiritual' events.


So, please link us to the evidence.

[pam699]

glad to hear from you captian chaos finally an open mind and anm explorer of the universe i share your ideas if not your experiences
well to link u to the evidence is abig task
all i can say is colin leslie dean is the first to my knwledge to explore this area of mulitipul ontolguies in the asustralian aboriginal dreamtim beliefs
he has scoured the anothroplogical literature from its inception to current days and marashels the evidence for these multipul realities
it must be born in mind australian aboriginal culture is very secrative there a levels of spirtuality which must be pased before the elders pass on the secret knowledge of the dreamtime only initiated individuals can be given this knowledge there are circles within circles of levels of mystical knowldege which may take a life time to be given

i suggest you downloasd deans book called
the australian aboriginal dreamtime : an acount of its history cosmogenesis cosmology and ontology
and yu will see the anthroplogical data -and references given in bibilography- which supports deans thesis

http://gamahucherpress.yellowgum.com...DREAMTIME1.pdf

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: pam699 glad to hear from you captian chaos finally an open mind and anm explorer of the universe i share your ideas if not your experiences well to link u to the evidence is abig task all i can say is colin leslie dean is the first to my knwledge to explore this area of mulitipul ontolguies in the asustralian aboriginal dreamtim beliefs he has scoured the anothroplogical literature from its inception to current days and marashels the evidence for these multipul realities it must be born in mind australian aboriginal culture is very secrative there a levels of spirtuality which must be pased before the elders pass on the secret knowledge of the dreamtime only initiated individuals can be given this knowledge there are circles within circles of levels of mystical knowldege which may take a life time to be given i suggest you downloasd deans book called the australian aboriginal dreamtime : an acount of its history cosmogenesis cosmology and ontology and yu will see the anthroplogical data -and references given in bibilography- which supports deans thesis http://gamahucherpress.yellowgum.com...DREAMTIME1.pdf

I will check it out...

thanks.

[pam699]

captian chaos let me know what you think of the work - did u find it interesting did you find it convincing etc

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: pam699 captian chaos let me know what you think of the work - did u find it interesting did you find it convincing etc

OK, I scanned through it during lunch.

It seems that the author is making points about the fact that different tribes having different concepts of what the dreamtime is.

I see nothing in there that would constitute evidence that what any of these tribes believe is true.