Whats up with Miracles

[jascowhiz0]

Why do they happen. And how would atheist explain or write them off.

Example I'm giving is the Lady of Guadeloupe. Appeared in the 1530s on a tilma made out of a material that should have decayed 100's of years ago. Also her eyes reflect an image of a family just like a real human's eyes would.

Link about the eyes.

[Scribbler1]

No one should be able to explain or write them off, if they are indeed miracles. But super close-ups and colorized spots on a B&W photo to make people's heads hardly qualifies as a miracle. People see shapes in clouds too.

Or maybe it does, if you believe the Jesus on a piece of toast, or the CA candy shop where they saw the Virgin Mary in a pile of leaked chocolate underneath a melting kettle, or the hundreds of other "sightings" that seem to be fine for the true believers.

Nothing to prove or disprove, and nothing there to "write off". But, by all means believe whatever you wish.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: jascowhiz0 Why do they happen. And how would atheist explain or write them off. Example I'm giving is the Lady of Guadeloupe. Appeared in the 1530s on a tilma made out of a material that should have decayed 100's of years ago. Also her eyes reflect an image of a family just like a real human's eyes would. Link about the eyes.

Just as many miraculously horrible things happen as good. If not more.

I'll be cheap.. how can you ignore a tree randomly falling over in a forest, somehow landing right on a tent full of kids camping for the first time in YEARS... but then celebrate the impossibilities of good things? "Obviously" these "miracles" you speak of MUST be the work of a supernatural father-like being with all powers, residing in a world beyond our own. Yet why are you ignoring the equally miraculous horrible things that are happening?

[loser]

Leonardo da Vinci painted the Mona Lisa. However, there are virtually MILLIONS of copies of this famous painting. Some are legal "prints" that can be purchased rather inexpensively and which allows people to appreciate art (and their respective artists). However, often illegal copies are made which try to pass for the original in order to garner incredible riches. These are called counterfeits or forgeries or FAKES. Usually, there is only ONE original but the forgeries can number in the hundreds or even thousands.

Alas, paintings are not the ONLY things that are forged: money, ancient artifacts, and yes, even MIRACLES are often forged!

For every real miracle there must be over a thousand FAKE miracles...and for the very same reason: MONEY!

The sad truth is that the RCC has lent credence to phony miracles for centuries. They chose to allow primitive cultures to retain their superstitions, melding them almost seamlessly into the forced Catholic dogma. Santeria is one special instance of a religion that combines voodoo and Catholicism.

In South America, superstition runs rampant. Stigmata, weeping statues (especially of the Madonna), and other fanciful 'miracles' abound. But France and other European countries have theirs, too.

Miracles DO exist but quietly so and never with the fanfare and sensationalism that makes headlines...or lines of desperate people willing to pay for a miracle.

Lady of Guadeloupe is a HOAX...a FRAUD. But that hasn't stopped the pilgrimage that continues today.

With so much ridiculous phoniness posing as miracles, the atheists don't have to say much. All they have to do is snort and jeer and guffaw...and that is what is really sad.

[jascowhiz0]

Quote by: loser Leonardo da Vinci painted the Mona Lisa. However, there are virtually MILLIONS of copies of this famous painting. Some are legal "prints" that can be purchased rather inexpensively and which allows people to appreciate art (and their respective artists). However, often illegal copies are made which try to pass for the original in order to garner incredible riches. These are called counterfeits or forgeries or FAKES. Usually, there is only ONE original but the forgeries can number in the hundreds or even thousands. Alas, paintings are not the ONLY things that are forged: money, ancient artifacts, and yes, even MIRACLES are often forged! For every real miracle there must be over a thousand FAKE miracles...and for the very same reason: MONEY! The sad truth is that the RCC has lent credence to phony miracles for centuries. They chose to allow primitive cultures to retain their superstitions, melding them almost seamlessly into the forced Catholic dogma. Santeria is one special instance of a religion that combines voodoo and Catholicism. In South America, superstition runs rampant. Stigmata, weeping statues (especially of the Madonna), and other fanciful 'miracles' abound. But France and other European countries have theirs, too. Miracles DO exist but quietly so and never with the fanfare and sensationalism that makes headlines...or lines of desperate people willing to pay for a miracle. Lady of Guadeloupe is a HOAX...a FRAUD. But that hasn't stopped the pilgrimage that continues today. With so much ridiculous phoniness posing as miracles, the atheists don't have to say much. All they have to do is snort and jeer and guffaw...and that is what is really sad.

Your right about phony miracles but how is this one a hoax or a fraud. Its been around for 400 years and it should have decayed and many different people have studied it? How much more evidence do you need to prove to you this is real. You can even go down to whatever city its in and look at if for yourself. If you had certain permissions you could probably take really hi-res shots of the eyes and go to an optometrist and show them to him.

[SoccerfreakAB2]

Quote by: jascowhiz0 Why do they happen. And how would atheist explain or write them off. Example I'm giving is the Lady of Guadeloupe. Appeared in the 1530s on a tilma made out of a material that should have decayed 100's of years ago. Also her eyes reflect an image of a family just like a real human's eyes would. Link about the eyes.

Well, to be as objective as I can, with respect to all religions, miracles are occurences far beyond the ordinary. That's it. I can name you a million things in this world that had little chance of happening but did.

The confusing part is how we react to these occurences. Atheists, for one, have no reaction, because they are just random coincidences and improbable (but not impossible) occurences that have just happened. To find that out, theists ask themselves questions to merit a miracle.

What were we doing before it occured?
Were we praying to our God that this good thing would happen and it did? Were we praying to our God that this bad thing would happen and it did?
Were we involved at all emotionally or mentally with the occurence?
Were numerous people involved, a few, or just one?
What are the chances of this occuring once, twice, or ever again?

The final stage is placing the blame of the deed. Although, they use only the good miracles, since the bad miracles give [place God name here] a bad rep.

That's pretty much it. You can google a lot of these miracles, too. Most are pretty funny because they are so exaggerated, like the pancake that looks like Jesus (which, mind you, was selling for 800 dollars last I checked)

[rez]

Quote by: loser Miracles DO exist but quietly so and never with the fanfare and sensationalism that makes headlines...or lines of desperate people willing to pay for a miracle. Lady of Guadeloupe is a HOAX...a FRAUD. But that hasn't stopped the pilgrimage that continues today.

How the hell are you going to tell someone that some miracles are real and some are not real? What are the criteria that you use to determine this claim?

You do realize there is as much evidence to back up the miracles you claim are real as the ones you claim are false, right?

It was funny, before you were claiming that God is scientific and can be found with science, but now you claim that god can preform supernatural miracles.

Do they hit you with the stupid stick in church or something?

[Zhavric]

Quote by: jascowhiz0 Why do they happen. And how would atheist explain or write them off.

What's up with miracles? Why do theists believe they happen? And how do they support the ones that agree with their religion and dismiss the ones that don't?

[Lotharia]

What is the definition you give to the word "miracle"? What I usually see people referring to as a "miracle" is something that happened that was against the odds (not impossible, just improbable) or something that happened that they really wished hard for.

[loser]

How the hell are you going to tell someone that some miracles are real and some are not real?

Kind of like telling someone some Rolex watches are real and some are not real. Understand?

You do realize there is as much evidence to back up the miracles you claim are real as the ones you claim are false, right?

There's a difference. A REAL miracle cannot be disproved. Alternate explanations can be offered and, therefore, doubts can be raised as to the miracle's authenticity. If a miracle is phony, however, it can often be EXPOSED as such.

It was funny, before you were claiming that God is scientific and can be found with science, but now you claim that god can preform supernatural miracles.

If we were in a room discussing, "Miracles: Fact or Fiction?" and, suddenly, smoke and flames erupted on a wall and a message appeared that said, "Do you doubt my POWER?", you MIGHT think that you were witnessing a SUPERNATURAL event. I, however, would explain to you about SPONTANEOUS COMBUSTION; how, when certain elements or compounds reach flash point, they can instantly ignite without the addition of any external heat source. For example, white phosphorous will ignite at ordinary room temperatures. By dissolving it in an appropriate solvent, an 'invisible' message could be painted on a wall. Once the solvent evaporated, the phosphorous would quickly reach ignition temperature and begin to burn out the message previously applied to the wall.

To the untrained (less schooled), this might seem like something supernatural. To a chemist, it's just simple chemistry. Many a 'primitive' native has been wowed with simple modern-day inventions like lighters, cameras, and the like. What most people call SUPERNATURAL, I call SCIENCE. Not magic...science.

Do they hit you with the stupid stick in church or something?

Is that what you think?

What's up with miracles? Why do theists believe they happen? And how do they support the ones that agree with their religion and dismiss the ones that don't?

If a person has been diagnosed with terminal cancer by doctors, get prayed over and has hands layed on him, and then another visit to the doctor reveals to the astonished doctor that the cancer has mysteriously vanished, that person may perceive a miracle has occurred. In reality, there may be a perfectly good explanation as to what happened.

If someone's 'possessed' child has the 'demons' cast out of him and he is 'healed', the parents may believe supernatural forces are at work, a miracle has happened. It might be explainable by less 'colorful' language.

If a man attempts to kill you with a double-barrelled shotgun and BOTH barrels MISFIRE, you might be thanking your lucky stars OR you might be praising God.

If you were cliff jumping and your parachute failed to open and you were plummeting to your certain death and, inexplicably, at the very last moment, you felt something like a giant, invisible hand catch you and gently place you on the ground, you might feel like you were the recipient of a miracle from God. Of course, it could have just been an opportune updraft that saved your day.

Only one of the above actually happened to me but I can tell you right now it was because God wasn't ready for me to go just then. Of course, if this was the only 'miracle' that had happened in my life, I might be as skeptical as anyone else here. However, I've almost already had my "nine lives"; I'm not sure just how many I have left.

Could all of the life-saving miracles in my life be explained in terms of natural causes? Absolutely! However, how many times must things happen in your favor "against all odds" before you start to realize that maybe, just maybe, Someone is looking out for you?

How many miracles have there been in my life? At least eight or nine and maybe more...I've lost track.

I hope y'all don't mind if I "Praise God!"

(He's been really good to me...better than I deserve!)

[Pockets]

I'm not going to get on here and tell people what to believe. I'll tell one quick story I've been privy to:
I worked for a an MLM that distributed nutritional supplements. In my experience there are good supplements and poorer quality supplements. To my knowledge there is no magic elixir that cures all ills. I received a call one day from one of our consumers. He was practically in tears. He stated he had been diagnosed with leukemia about 6 months prior. He had just come from his doctor. He was told his cancer was in remission. He told me that he was just finishing his second course of chemotherapy. This coincided with his recently new regimen of consuming one of our main products, a mineral supplement. After 4 weeks of taking our product he was now in remission. He gave full credit to the product. I understand there are many, althought too few, stories of cancer patients going into remission. Nor is this a story about magic elixirs. I am simply pointing out that often miracle is in the eye of the beholder. A logical person would, as I do, lean towards the chemo as the factor. I really found it humorous at the time. At the end of the day I don't think it matters if theses 'miracles' are truly miracles. If it works to help someone get out of bed and face the world, then I advocate calling them whatever you want. It is when, as Loser points out, they are creations of and for personal gain that the problems arise.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: jascowhiz0 Your right about phony miracles but how is this one a hoax or a fraud. Its been around for 400 years and it should have decayed and many different people have studied it? How much more evidence do you need to prove to you this is real. You can even go down to whatever city its in and look at if for yourself. If you had certain permissions you could probably take really hi-res shots of the eyes and go to an optometrist and show them to him.

I would not consider the faces in the eye miraculous, because for something to be miraculous it would have to not have a possible natural or manmade explanation. Figures or images in the clouds, paintings, or elsewhere do have a possible natural or manmade explanation, desspite the extremely low probability that the image or figure may appear to be. The low probability of an occurance would not constitute miraculous. However, if these heads, began talking or singing to those who looked at the painting, we would have a miraculous manifestation of 'Talking Heads'.

[rez]

Quote by: loser Kind of like telling someone some Rolex watches are real and some are not real. Understand?

nice try, but people know for a fact how Rolex watches are assembled. People know who creates the Rolex watches too.

When someone claims their Rolex watch is real, they are able to provide evidence that actually distinguishes the watch from a fake watch because people know who and how it is created. The point is, nobody can provide evidence that distinguishes the Christian god from the Hindu god or a real god from a fake god.

There's a difference. A REAL miracle cannot be disproved.

do you seriously ignore what everybody says to you? If you make a claim, then you have to back it up. That is the most important part about instilling doubt in someones mind when it comes to a real miracle and a fake miracle. Sure, people can actually provide alternate explanations that show how the miracle is a hoax, but that is not as important as a person backing up their claim.

If we were in a room discussing, "Miracles: Fact or Fiction?" and, suddenly, smoke and flames erupted on a wall and a message appeared that said, "Do you doubt my POWER?", you MIGHT think that you were witnessing a SUPERNATURAL event. I, however, would explain to you about SPONTANEOUS COMBUSTION; how, when certain elements or compounds reach flash point, they can instantly ignite without the addition of any external heat source. For example, white phosphorous will ignite at ordinary room temperatures. By dissolving it in an appropriate solvent, an 'invisible' message could be painted on a wall. Once the solvent evaporated, the phosphorous would quickly reach ignition temperature and begin to burn out the message previously applied to the wall. To the untrained (less schooled), this might seem like something supernatural. To a chemist, it's just simple chemistry. Many a 'primitive' native has been wowed with simple modern-day inventions like lighters, cameras, and the like. What most people call SUPERNATURAL, I call SCIENCE. Not magic...science.

wow, I agree with what you said here. There is a logical explanation for everything in a natural reality.

Quote by: loser Only one of the above actually happened to me but I can tell you right now it was because God wasn't ready for me to go just then. Of course, if this was the only 'miracle' that had happened in my life, I might be as skeptical as anyone else here. However, I've almost already had my "nine lives"; I'm not sure just how many I have left.

And then somehow you totally contradicted yourself. You claim that those who are less schooled then others would think there are supernatural reasons for an event (an example would be a higher power saving ones life). You then go and make a superstitious claim about how you have nine lives and that because you had so many occurrences of close calls that god must have saved you. So by your own claims, you are less schooled then others - and that I truly agree with.

[atheist]

why do miracles necessarily have to be faith-based?

i can believe in miracles, but also not believe in a god/religion. it's kinda that simple.

i think people ingrain the idea of a miracle as a totally religious experience too much.

language is so tricky that way.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: loser Could all of the life-saving miracles in my life be explained in terms of natural causes? Absolutely! However, how many times must things happen in your favor "against all odds" before you start to realize that maybe, just maybe, Someone is looking out for you?

Clearly, the question you've not asked yourself is "How many times must things happen in your favor "against all odds" before an institution attempts to program you to believe your good fortune is a result of the product they're selling?"

It's a question theists don't consider, but should.

[5010]

If I were to accept the images of people found in close-up imagery as miracle, then should I also accept any image found in nature to be a miracle? For example, guides on cavern tours like to point out structures in the rock formations that resemble animals. Same is true for mountain guides. There is also the famous face on mars, which one would consider a miracle as well.

Such 'miracles' are very common. How about the miracle of sounds? Once in a while, I'll notice that a song on the radio has a tempo that miraculously matches the wiper blades or the turn signal.

The problem with these 'miracles' is the assumption of causation over synchronicity.

Has the rate of material decay been investigated? I don't think one can compare this material with something buried on a corpse. Are there any other samples from other objects made of this material that have been kept in clean dry rooms and haven't decayed?

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Lotharia What is the definition you give to the word "miracle"? What I usually see people referring to as a "miracle" is something that happened that was against the odds (not impossible, just improbable) or something that happened that they really wished hard for.

Actually the statistical occurance of an event, no matter how small, is not grounds for a calling an event a 'miracle. Miracles world be an event that would be impossible under natural circumstances.