Gay marriage in the Christian world

[loser]

Convicted murderers, rapists, even CHILD MOLESTORS are allowed by law to adopt children but you say gay couples cannot?

Do you think that murderers, rapists, and child molestors SHOULD be allowed to adopt children? I don't.

What makes them worse than molestors or rapists or murderers?

They're usually not. Most gays that I know are basically good people that just have a lot of problems and issues.

[phoenix_fire]

I think that people need to trash the idea that the US is a "Christian nation". It's not. As long as people insist on trying to force people to act like Christians instead of convincing them to be such, all such endeavors will ever accomplish is polarizing and backlash. Such people have lost sight of the grace that was given to them and have decided to name themselves some kind of divine enforcers. It is evident that Christianity was never meant to perpetuate itself through the edicts and enforcement of man-made institutions of government. If it were, Christ would have been, as the Jews expected, a military Messiah with a crown and a sword. As it is, He chose a different way to perpetuate His Truth, and Christians should imitate that.

[loser]

Private people whould be able to discriminate against anyone they want (as long as they're not harming them)...

Did you mean "should"? I firmly believe that EVERYONE should have the right to discriminate, both in private AND in public. I want to be able to hire who I want and allow who I want in my place of business.

However, there would have to be some government restrictions in place to protect 'undesirables' from being refused essential services (i.e., gas stations, grocery stores, pharmacies, etc.). If a team owner refused to hire black athletes for his basketball team, let him. If he's able to still compete, power to him...white power! :-)

If discrimination was allowed, it wouldn't take long to see where the real hatred was. At any rate, I think EXCLUSIVITY has its place in society. So let the HONOR SOCIETY consist of HONOR STUDENTS but let the WOMEN"S restroom be for women or men, considering that restrooms are "essential services". :-)

[loser]

Problem is, the event spoken of has already happened before. A gay group sued a pastor because he spoke against homosexuality.

It's worse than that. A preacher in England was arrested for "hate speech" for speaking out against homosexuality in his church!

[RickSp]

Quote by: loser It's worse than that. A preacher in England was arrested for "hate speech" for speaking out against homosexuality in his church!

Which is why the First Amendment is worth defending in this country. Britian has no Bill of Rights.

[RickSp]

Quote by: dthmstr254 This is based on studies, not surveys. In surveys, people can lie. People usually do lie on surveys. According to English Comp 101 and Speech Communications, as well as General Psych, all 100 level college classes that I am pretty sure that a good group of the people who have or are taking college have or are taking, studies are more accurate than surveys. Surveys grab the basics, while studies go for the detailed and most accurate answer.

Just more blather, denying the obvious. Oh well, if that sort of nonsense floats your boat. If that is what you learned in shcool, demand your money back. You were cheated.

[loser]

Well, there is a problem in the parallellism, for one, consuming recreational drugs can cause harm to a person other than the consumer, as can be shown by the drugged up guy driving down the road and swerving into the oncoming lane.

The sad part of that is that the drug that caused the guy to swerve into incoming traffic is a legal one (alcohol). It's pretty stupid to make marijuana (a relatively harmless drug) illicit while legalizing one of the most dangerous drugs known to man. You can argue all you want but the fact is alcohol brings out the worst in people, being responsible for the majority of murders and rapes and drunk-driving related deaths.

Its really never about health anyway...its always about money.

Note: Marijuana is not a good drug. However, I'm quite sure that it is a lot better than Prozac.

[loser]

Who CALL themselves or who actually practice Christianity? Even DL Moody said that not even 20% of his congregation were truly Christians.

Yeah and I bet that the ones that Jesus would pick are a different lot that those picked by Moody. People like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson show their true hearts every time they rant against some other nation's leader or terroist group, advocating retaliation to the point of murder. A LOT of Christians don't walk the walk and some don't even bother talking the talk.

[Pockets]

Quote by: dthmstr254 There is a demonstrable harm in allowing gay marriage. For one, the next step is gay people demanding that pastors not preach against homosexuality. This has been done before, when a gay group tried to sue a pastor. Another thing is it would force pastors to head up the marriages, and most, like my pastor, say that he will go to prison rather than that. Secondly, in the above situation, I would write in a vote instead of voting for the two major people in candidacy

God does not discriminate. He lets religion do that.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: loser Yeah and I bet that the ones that Jesus would pick are a different lot that those picked by Moody. People like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson show their true hearts every time they rant against some other nation's leader or terroist group, advocating retaliation to the point of murder. A LOT of Christians don't walk the walk and some don't even bother talking the talk.

Ok, so instead we just let them kill away and leave them alone? There is no way to use diplomacy when all the other side wants is to see your head rolling on the ground. You cannot negotiate with Al Quada, you cannot negotiate with HAMAS. Next time you have somebody pull a gun on you and tell you to give your last words, I bet they won't be, "Now let's think this through now." They maybe. However, what you have to offer he would get if he killed you. So your point is null and void.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: loser The sad part of that is that the drug that caused the guy to swerve into incoming traffic is a legal one (alcohol). It's pretty stupid to make marijuana (a relatively harmless drug) illicit while legalizing one of the most dangerous drugs known to man. You can argue all you want but the fact is alcohol brings out the worst in people, being responsible for the majority of murders and rapes and drunk-driving related deaths. Its really never about health anyway...its always about money. Note: Marijuana is not a good drug. However, I'm quite sure that it is a lot better than Prozac.

Well I never said that I was for legalized alcohol.

[loser]

So between 75% and 80% of Americans claim to be Christian but you know better? Don't you think that it might be just a wee bit presumptuous and more than tad arrogant to tell a few hundred million people that they are not Christians because they don't meet your particular standards?

It's not about meeting 'our' standards, it's about meeting God's standards. It's not my place to judge ANYONE. What I would tell you is that it is God's word that says "many are called, but few are CHOSEN" and "narrow is the way that leads to salvation and FEW there are that find it" and "I never KNEW you, depart from me you workers of lawlessness".

[loser]

Ok, so instead we just let them kill away and leave them alone? There is no way to use diplomacy when all the other side wants is to see your head rolling on the ground. You cannot negotiate with Al Quada, you cannot negotiate with HAMAS. Next time you have somebody pull a gun on you and tell you to give your last words, I bet they won't be, "Now let's think this through now." They maybe. However, what you have to offer he would get if he killed you. So your point is null and void.

Do you think that terrorism and revolt and revolution didn't exist in Jesus' day? You know they did. Do you think that murder and theft and rape were unheard of and that the streets were safer in His time? You know they weren't.

Still, the times were very much akin to our times now. There was a semblance of peace and order and it was because of the Roman rule: their law and their law enforcement.

Did Jesus need to invoke a call to arms? No, He didn't. In fact, when Peter raised his sword, he was rebuked. None of the governments of the world need their religious leaders to call for retaliation (except possibly Muslim nations). They all have military forces ready to strike at a moment's notice.

Let the armies preach death to the enemy and let's keep our religious leaders proclaiming peace on earth and good will towards men.

[loser]

Well I never said that I was for legalized alcohol.

Well, you should be. As a Baptist (southern?), you probably have been taught that Jesus didn't really drink wine and that drinking is bad. Or you may have been adversely affected in some way that was alcohol related.

The truth is ALL drugs should be legal: tobacco, pot, cocaine, opiates, even DDT. What's needed is responsible people. Drunk driving shouldn't be against the law. Losing control of your vehicle and harming other people or their property is what should bring the wrath of the law down upon you severely. If you make it home and are able to sleep it off without hurting anyone, no foul. Speeding should be acceptable, causing an accident should not.

The law should mirror these words: "No harm, no foul".

[RickSp]

Quote by: loser It's not about meeting 'our' standards, it's about meeting God's standards. It's not my place to judge ANYONE. What I would tell you is that it is God's word that says "many are called, but few are CHOSEN" and "narrow is the way that leads to salvation and FEW there are that find it" and "I never KNEW you, depart from me you workers of lawlessness".

I love the circularity of this argument. If over 200 million Americans call themselves Christians, they must believe that they meet the minimum standards. Then some evangelical pops up and claims that they are not Christians because they don't meet "God's standard" which apparently only the evangelical or his leaders or whomever are capable of divining. For some reason the hundreds of millions of folks who think of themselves as Christians apparently can't figure out "God's standard" which must be why the Christian God put the annoying evangelicals on the earth in the first place.

Sounds like a bad con game to me.

[phoenix_fire]

There are a lot of things wrong with your argument. First, we know from vast and varying experiences that people can and do claim that they are something that they really are not. I can claim to speak Japanese, even though I can barely count to kyuu (9). A lot of people on American Idol think they can sing, but the entirety of America is of a far different opinion. So why do you have trouble wrapping your mind around the idea that some people that call themselves Christian probably aren't?

Second, you buy into this idea of a "minimum standard". You seem to think (along with many Christians, I might add) that there is just some minimum that you have to accomplish to get a passing grade in life and then you can sit and do sudoku until you die. Being a Christian isn't supposed to be like that. It is about a lifestyle that you get up every day and try your hardest to live out to the best of your ability. In this, many fail spectacularly because they don't even try. The Bible says that "you will know them by their fruits", meaning that you can determine what's going on in someone's heart and mind by what they do and what comes of their life. And the aforementioned people have no fruit...or sometimes, bad fruit.

[RickSp]

Give me a break. American is overwhelmingly Christian, even if some Christians choose to deny the obvious.

You seem more interested in excluding those who consider themselves to be Christians but do not meet your exalted vision of the faith. As I have noted before, I guess you missed the "accept one another" part of Romans l5:7.

I guess this explains, at least in part, why Christians throughout history have been so willing to slaughter each other in the name of the "Prince of Peace". If you lack even a basic tolerence of your co-religionists, no wonder so many churches are hostile to gays and other minorities.

[phoenix_fire]

I again refer you to my comments concerning what people may call themselves and what they are as I do not like repeating myself.

You seem to think that I have a checklist that I use as I go around, point at people, and say "in. in. in. ooh...definitely out.". Uuhh...no. That's not my place. I suppose as well that you missed the many verses quoted earlier in this thread by loser that state that not everyone who calls themselves by the name of the Lord is known by Him. Please don't try to use things out of context. This is not a matter of acceptance. You are missing the point, I think, intentionally.

This last is a ridiculous, ignorant, and hate-motivated dig for which I consider the previous designation to be more than sufficient response.

[RickSp]

Cutting through the flaming rhetoric, do you deny that 75% to 80% of Americans identify themselves as Christians?

Why do you claim the right to call them liars? Or are they merely ignorant and deluded and you obviously know better?

[rez]

Quote by: loser It's not about meeting 'our' standards, it's about meeting God's standards.

Here is where the idiocy starts. Theists have fooled themselves into thinking that the bible was written by a supernatural being, therefore, they use the bible to cite their "unique" take on reality. What they don't seem to catch on to is that they pick and choose the bible verses they want to apply to reality.

Obviously if Christians can not agree amongst themseleves, then there can be no claim as to who is a Christian and who is not. There is so many unevidenced claims about your god, that no real understanding can take place. Because the claims are unevidenced and lack any real rationale explanation people have the ability to apply a lower standard to certain bible verses then other verses.

For instance, dhtmr may value a certain bible verse on gay marriage less then loser because the verse conflicts with dhtmr's sect of Christianity. Loser then makes the claim that dhtmr is not following god's will and will go to hell for it.

Quote by: phoenix_fire So why do you have trouble wrapping your mind around the idea that some people that call themselves Christian probably aren't?

People are the ones claiming certain people are not Christians - not your god.

Being a Christian is ambigous, therefore, does not justify anybody to make a claim that a certain person is not a Christian. Nobody knows if god loves radical, moderate, or conservative Christians.