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Mr.Vicchio · May 23, 2004, 09:01 am

Flavius Josephus. Josephus was born in either 37 or 38 A. D. When he was 26 years old, he took upon himself the mission of seeking to improve the relations between the Jews and the Romans. He was a historian who was highly respected by the Roman world. He was held in such high regard that he was allowed to accompany Titus when Titus led the Romans Army against Jerusalem (70 A. D.). Josephus wrote several books that have come down to us today, History of the Jewish War (seven different books) and Jewish Antiquities, to name some. Josephus was not a Christian himself. We read:

"At that time lived Jesus, a wise man, if he may be called a man; for he performed many wonderful works. He was a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure….And when Pilate, at the instigation of the chief men among us, had condemned him to the cross, they who before had conceived an affection for him did not cease to adhere to him. For on the third day he appeared to them alive again, the divine prophets having foretold these and many other wonderful things concerning him. And the sect of the Christians, so called from him, subsists at this time" (Antiquities, Book 18, Chapter 3, Section 1).

Pliny the younger, born in 61 A. D. Pliny was sent by the Emperor Trajan to Bithynia in 112 as propraetor. Having found a large number of Christians there, he wrote back to Trajan to get information on how to deal with them. Pliny says to Trajan:

"It is my rule, Sire, to refer to you in matters where I am uncertain. For who can better direct my hesitation or instruct my ignorance? I was never present at any trial of Christians; therefore I do not know what are the customary penalties or investigations, and what limits are observed…." Under specific item number five of his letter, Pliny wrote: "…All who denied that they were or had been Christians I considered should be discharged, because they called upon the gods at my dictation and did reverence, with incense and wine, to your image which I had ordered to be brought forward for this purpose, together with the statutes of the deities; and especially because they cursed Christ, a thing which, it is said, genuine Christians cannot be induced to do…."

Under item number six, he continued:

"…Others named by the informer first said that they were Christians and then denied it; declaring that they had been but were so no longer, some having recanted three years or more before and one or two as long as twenty years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods and cursed Christ…."

Concerned reader, as seen in the foregoing, there is no doubt that Christianity had its beginning in the First Century and that Jesus Christ is its founder. In addition to the secular writings quoted above, why should the twenty-six books of the New Testament be discounted as establishing the historicity of Jesus? "Jesus" or "Christ" is mentioned specifically in twenty-six of the books. Third John, "Jesus" and "Christ" absent) does imply Jesus (vs. 7). These books cover a critical time period of about 56 through 96 A. D. and involve ten different authors. The matter most valuable about these twenty-six books is that they have been subjected to more tests to determine authenticity than any other books (canonicity).

http://www.bibletruths.net/Archives/BTAR217.htm

There was more but I tried to get the pertinant parts from that site I can find more.

The point is, Jesus really was a real figure and did walk the earth.

Gorgo · May 23, 2004, 09:25 am

No contemporary non-Christian accounts. No accounts of Herod's genocide. No evidence of his writings. Even Paul does not acknowledge the life of Jesus of Nazareth.

Most bible scholars agree that the gospels are not the words of Jesus' contemporaries, so there is no evidence of even contemporary Christian accounts.

There is reason to think even Josephus' accounts are tampered with.

No. Jesus did not walk on water or heal the sick, in fact, like Hercules and Mithra he probably never existed.

**Pooeypants** · May 23, 2004, 09:49 am

His source says it all...biased? *cough*

Mr.Vicchio · May 23, 2004, 10:01 am

.....

Sigh.

Fine, more source, I will try to find some that are form the "JESUS WAS FAKE" web sites proving Jesus was real...

::Rolling eyes::

Mia · May 23, 2004, 10:13 am

Pooey, do you have a counter-argument or is calling something biased enough nowadays?

Paavo · May 23, 2004, 10:27 am

That, and the domain name does seem a tad biased.

Gorgo · May 23, 2004, 10:57 am

Yes, biased does not make it wrong.

Mr.Vicchio · May 23, 2004, 11:13 am

http://www.probe.org/docs/ancient.html

Evidence from Lucian
Lucian of Samosata was a second century Greek satirist. In one of his works, he wrote of the early Christians as follows:

The Christians . . . worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.{27}

Although Lucian is jesting here at the early Christians, he does make some significant comments about their founder. For instance, he says the Christians worshipped a man, "who introduced their novel rites." And though this man's followers clearly thought quite highly of Him, He so angered many of His contemporaries with His teaching that He "was crucified on that account."

http://www.carlislecofc.org/extrabiblical.htm

I can find more if you would like.

Fact is a man named Jesus lived in the first century and started the Christian Faith. Whether he was God in Human Form or not is not the debate in this thread.

Gorgo · May 23, 2004, 11:22 am

You go to the second century for someone stating that Jesus existed as proof that he existed? I'm not sure of your point here.

Let me say it again. No contemporary accounts. Even the most rabid fundamentalist cannot find a non-Christian contemporary account. No record of Herod's genocide. No record of Jesus' writings.

The best anyone can do is talk about Josephus, whose writings were probably tampered with.

No fact. Doesn't mean that he didn't exist, but no good evidence that he is more than a fiction and if he did exist, we don't know anything about him.

Mr.Vicchio · May 23, 2004, 12:29 pm

gorgo, you don't believe in Jesus, even as a person.

The whole Christian faith in your eyes then is a lie based on a lie that should easily have been denounced... 2k years ago.

Your premis?

**Pooeypants** · May 23, 2004, 01:33 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio,
gorgo, you don't believe in Jesus, even as a person.

The whole Christian faith in your eyes then is a lie based on a lie that should easily have been denounced... 2k years ago.

Your premis?

Btw, do you know who Mithra is and when his birthdate was?

Mr.Vicchio · May 23, 2004, 01:37 pm

Not off the top of my head why does it matter?

**Pooeypants** · May 23, 2004, 01:43 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio,
Not off the top of my head why does it matter?

He was a deity worshipped at about 1st century AD, his birthday was on 25th December. Ever wondered where we got the birthday of Jesus Christ from even though there weren't an accurate reference(s) in the scriptures?

Gorgo · May 23, 2004, 01:53 pm

I'm not sure what you mean. I've stated my premise twice. What are you looking for? What proof do you have that Jesus of Nazareth, the man, ever existed?

Then tell me what possible difference it makes at all.

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio,
gorgo, you don't believe in Jesus, even as a person.

The whole Christian faith in your eyes then is a lie based on a lie that should easily have been denounced... 2k years ago.

Your premis?

shunyadragon · May 23, 2004, 07:25 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio,
http://www.probe.org/docs/ancient.html

Evidence from Lucian
Lucian of Samosata was a second century Greek satirist. In one of his works, he wrote of the early Christians as follows:

The Christians . . . worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.{27}

Although Lucian is jesting here at the early Christians, he does make some significant comments about their founder. For instance, he says the Christians worshipped a man, "who introduced their novel rites." And though this man's followers clearly thought quite highly of Him, He so angered many of His contemporaries with His teaching that He "was crucified on that account."

http://www.carlislecofc.org/extrabiblical.htm

I can find more if you would like.

Fact is a man named Jesus lived in the first century and started the Christian Faith. Whether he was God in Human Form or not is not the debate in this thread.

Can you provode any contemporary references outside the Bible between the dates of 50BC to 60AD that make any reference to the following.

(1) The earthquake.
(2) The darkness at the cruxifiction.
(3) Life of Jesus.
(4) The slaughter of the innocents.

The oldest documentation comes after 100 AD with the discovery of fragments of scripture and evidence of churches like Antoch in Asia Minor.

The first hundred years is 'empty' except for questionable second-hand references by Josephus.

May 25, 2004, 12:26 am

The reason there is little/no non-christian evidence of Jesus is that there was a fire that destroyed the roman account of his crucifiction (sp). Romans were rather meticulous about their documents. I don't remember if the fire was in Rome or Palestine. This, of course is no proof of anything except that whatever documents would have existed were destroyed. Jesus did exist, however I believe the majority of the myth surrounding his life is exagerated. Gorgo is correct when he says the Gospels were written by people who never saw Jesus. Those books were written after the eye witnesses started dying off and there was noone left to preach what happened.
Another important point is that much of the mythology surrounding Jesus' life and "works," was designed to fulfill prophesies spelled out by numerous Eastern Mediteranean cults, including Jewish tradition. There are many writtings contemporaries of the Gospels, that have radically different accounts of the events surrounding Jesus' life and death. The Thomistic Gospels are full of even more egregious examples of miracles and wonders attributed to Jesus and Mary. Some of the Coptic writtings deny Jesus rose from the dead. There are also writtings that state Jesus did not die on the cross, but actually traveled to Rome. The books chosen for the Bible were selected because they were more conducive to having an organized church.
My readings of these texts, and the gospels, left me with the impression that Jesus would be terribly upset by the perversion of his original tachings. I believe he tried to teach that we, as individuals, could come to know the divine spark in ourselves and did not need any organized religion to intervene between us and the divine/god, whatever. Hence, his animosity towards the pharasies and sadjucees who were the priestly class in Israel at the time. This message is also what got him killed.

Gorgo · May 25, 2004, 07:19 am

Can you find out more about this fire?

Again, there are no contemporary accounts of his life. Did they all burn in one fire?

There are no mentions of any of his writings. Did his writings burn and all of the mentions of his writings burn in one fire?

May 25, 2004, 09:11 pm

Jesus didn't leave any writtings as far as I know. All I know about the fire is that any Roman documets surrounding the crucifixion would have been in the building that burned. I believe it was in Palestine, but it could have been Rome. That's all I know about the fire. I'm not going to disagree with you that there is scant evidence of Jesus' life. There is mention of a Saint Issa, believed to be Jesus, in Persina/Indian Moslem tradition. There is speculation that between age 12 and 30, when there is absolutely no verbage of his life, Jesus traveled east and studied with gurus in the east.

**Pooeypants** · May 26, 2004, 07:37 am

Very convenient to have a fire wipe out all the most important text concerning a Messiah. Hmm...

May 26, 2004, 07:54 pm

Sorry I don't have a source for the fire. I learned about it from a Roman History Professor as I took his class. This could be considered a credible source. I'm not going to spend the few hours it would take me to find a written source to cite, if you need one go to the nearest University library. There would have been scant Roman documentation of the Crux. since it was such a minor event from the Roman perspective.

May 23, 2004, 09:01 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
Mr.Vicchio Navy Veteran Location: Texas Posts: 6,335	Flavius Josephus. Josephus was born in either 37 or 38 A. D. When he was 26 years old, he took upon himself the mission of seeking to improve the relations between the Jews and the Romans. He was a historian who was highly respected by the Roman world. He was held in such high regard that he was allowed to accompany Titus when Titus led the Romans Army against Jerusalem (70 A. D.). Josephus wrote several books that have come down to us today, History of the Jewish War (seven different books) and Jewish Antiquities, to name some. Josephus was not a Christian himself. We read: "At that time lived Jesus, a wise man, if he may be called a man; for he performed many wonderful works. He was a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure….And when Pilate, at the instigation of the chief men among us, had condemned him to the cross, they who before had conceived an affection for him did not cease to adhere to him. For on the third day he appeared to them alive again, the divine prophets having foretold these and many other wonderful things concerning him. And the sect of the Christians, so called from him, subsists at this time" (Antiquities, Book 18, Chapter 3, Section 1). Pliny the younger, born in 61 A. D. Pliny was sent by the Emperor Trajan to Bithynia in 112 as propraetor. Having found a large number of Christians there, he wrote back to Trajan to get information on how to deal with them. Pliny says to Trajan: "It is my rule, Sire, to refer to you in matters where I am uncertain. For who can better direct my hesitation or instruct my ignorance? I was never present at any trial of Christians; therefore I do not know what are the customary penalties or investigations, and what limits are observed…." Under specific item number five of his letter, Pliny wrote: "…All who denied that they were or had been Christians I considered should be discharged, because they called upon the gods at my dictation and did reverence, with incense and wine, to your image which I had ordered to be brought forward for this purpose, together with the statutes of the deities; and especially because they cursed Christ, a thing which, it is said, genuine Christians cannot be induced to do…." Under item number six, he continued: "…Others named by the informer first said that they were Christians and then denied it; declaring that they had been but were so no longer, some having recanted three years or more before and one or two as long as twenty years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods and cursed Christ…." Concerned reader, as seen in the foregoing, there is no doubt that Christianity had its beginning in the First Century and that Jesus Christ is its founder. In addition to the secular writings quoted above, why should the twenty-six books of the New Testament be discounted as establishing the historicity of Jesus? "Jesus" or "Christ" is mentioned specifically in twenty-six of the books. Third John, "Jesus" and "Christ" absent) does imply Jesus (vs. 7). These books cover a critical time period of about 56 through 96 A. D. and involve ten different authors. The matter most valuable about these twenty-six books is that they have been subjected to more tests to determine authenticity than any other books (canonicity). http://www.bibletruths.net/Archives/BTAR217.htm There was more but I tried to get the pertinant parts from that site I can find more. The point is, Jesus really was a real figure and did walk the earth. Einstein's "Theory of Relativity" is still being challenged to this day, but by consensus Global Warming is a fact... that's REAL science at work, why didn't Albert just go that route?

May 23, 2004, 09:49 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,609	His source says it all...biased? cough War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

May 23, 2004, 10:01 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
Mr.Vicchio Navy Veteran Location: Texas Posts: 6,335	..... Sigh. Fine, more source, I will try to find some that are form the "JESUS WAS FAKE" web sites proving Jesus was real... ::Rolling eyes:: Einstein's "Theory of Relativity" is still being challenged to this day, but by consensus Global Warming is a fact... that's REAL science at work, why didn't Albert just go that route?

May 23, 2004, 10:13 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	Pooey, do you have a counter-argument or is calling something biased enough nowadays? "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

May 23, 2004, 11:13 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
Mr.Vicchio Navy Veteran Location: Texas Posts: 6,335	http://www.probe.org/docs/ancient.html Evidence from Lucian Lucian of Samosata was a second century Greek satirist. In one of his works, he wrote of the early Christians as follows: The Christians . . . worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.{27} Although Lucian is jesting here at the early Christians, he does make some significant comments about their founder. For instance, he says the Christians worshipped a man, "who introduced their novel rites." And though this man's followers clearly thought quite highly of Him, He so angered many of His contemporaries with His teaching that He "was crucified on that account." http://www.carlislecofc.org/extrabiblical.htm I can find more if you would like. Fact is a man named Jesus lived in the first century and started the Christian Faith. Whether he was God in Human Form or not is not the debate in this thread. Einstein's "Theory of Relativity" is still being challenged to this day, but by consensus Global Warming is a fact... that's REAL science at work, why didn't Albert just go that route?

May 23, 2004, 09:25 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	No contemporary non-Christian accounts. No accounts of Herod's genocide. No evidence of his writings. Even Paul does not acknowledge the life of Jesus of Nazareth. Most bible scholars agree that the gospels are not the words of Jesus' contemporaries, so there is no evidence of even contemporary Christian accounts. There is reason to think even Josephus' accounts are tampered with. No. Jesus did not walk on water or heal the sick, in fact, like Hercules and Mithra he probably never existed.

May 23, 2004, 10:27 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
Paavo Location: Finland Posts: 712	That, and the domain name does seem a tad biased.

May 23, 2004, 10:57 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	Yes, biased does not make it wrong.

May 23, 2004, 11:22 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	You go to the second century for someone stating that Jesus existed as proof that he existed? I'm not sure of your point here. Let me say it again. No contemporary accounts. Even the most rabid fundamentalist cannot find a non-Christian contemporary account. No record of Herod's genocide. No record of Jesus' writings. The best anyone can do is talk about Josephus, whose writings were probably tampered with. No fact. Doesn't mean that he didn't exist, but no good evidence that he is more than a fiction and if he did exist, we don't know anything about him.

May 23, 2004, 12:29 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
Mr.Vicchio Navy Veteran Location: Texas Posts: 6,335	gorgo, you don't believe in Jesus, even as a person. The whole Christian faith in your eyes then is a lie based on a lie that should easily have been denounced... 2k years ago. Your premis? Einstein's "Theory of Relativity" is still being challenged to this day, but by consensus Global Warming is a fact... that's REAL science at work, why didn't Albert just go that route?

May 23, 2004, 01:37 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
Mr.Vicchio Navy Veteran Location: Texas Posts: 6,335	Not off the top of my head why does it matter? Einstein's "Theory of Relativity" is still being challenged to this day, but by consensus Global Warming is a fact... that's REAL science at work, why didn't Albert just go that route?

May 25, 2004, 12:26 am	#16 (permalink) (top)
dave654 Guest Posts: n/a	The reason there is little/no non-christian evidence of Jesus is that there was a fire that destroyed the roman account of his crucifiction (sp). Romans were rather meticulous about their documents. I don't remember if the fire was in Rome or Palestine. This, of course is no proof of anything except that whatever documents would have existed were destroyed. Jesus did exist, however I believe the majority of the myth surrounding his life is exagerated. Gorgo is correct when he says the Gospels were written by people who never saw Jesus. Those books were written after the eye witnesses started dying off and there was noone left to preach what happened. Another important point is that much of the mythology surrounding Jesus' life and "works," was designed to fulfill prophesies spelled out by numerous Eastern Mediteranean cults, including Jewish tradition. There are many writtings contemporaries of the Gospels, that have radically different accounts of the events surrounding Jesus' life and death. The Thomistic Gospels are full of even more egregious examples of miracles and wonders attributed to Jesus and Mary. Some of the Coptic writtings deny Jesus rose from the dead. There are also writtings that state Jesus did not die on the cross, but actually traveled to Rome. The books chosen for the Bible were selected because they were more conducive to having an organized church. My readings of these texts, and the gospels, left me with the impression that Jesus would be terribly upset by the perversion of his original tachings. I believe he tried to teach that we, as individuals, could come to know the divine spark in ourselves and did not need any organized religion to intervene between us and the divine/god, whatever. Hence, his animosity towards the pharasies and sadjucees who were the priestly class in Israel at the time. This message is also what got him killed.

May 25, 2004, 07:19 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
Gorgo BANNED-Warned multiple times about instigating. User then reported topics multiple times to mess with staff. Posts: 4,412	Can you find out more about this fire? Again, there are no contemporary accounts of his life. Did they all burn in one fire? There are no mentions of any of his writings. Did his writings burn and all of the mentions of his writings burn in one fire?

May 25, 2004, 09:11 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
dave654 Guest Posts: n/a	Jesus didn't leave any writtings as far as I know. All I know about the fire is that any Roman documets surrounding the crucifixion would have been in the building that burned. I believe it was in Palestine, but it could have been Rome. That's all I know about the fire. I'm not going to disagree with you that there is scant evidence of Jesus' life. There is mention of a Saint Issa, believed to be Jesus, in Persina/Indian Moslem tradition. There is speculation that between age 12 and 30, when there is absolutely no verbage of his life, Jesus traveled east and studied with gurus in the east.

May 26, 2004, 07:37 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
Pooeypants Neo Moderator Location: England Posts: 5,609	Very convenient to have a fire wipe out all the most important text concerning a Messiah. Hmm... War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is strength Harness the power of Ingsoc, then you can capture someone killed the year before

May 26, 2004, 07:54 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
dave654 Guest Posts: n/a	Sorry I don't have a source for the fire. I learned about it from a Roman History Professor as I took his class. This could be considered a credible source. I'm not going to spend the few hours it would take me to find a written source to cite, if you need one go to the nearest University library. There would have been scant Roman documentation of the Crux. since it was such a minor event from the Roman perspective.