How do you know your god is the real one?

[sdbest]

Despite the fact that I've yet to see any evidence that to me supports the notion of the existence of gods or other supernatural beings, I am legitimately curious about one thing. How do people who do believe in gods know that the particular god they worship is the true god and that the gods of others are false? If the Christian's God is real and Allah or Narayana are not (or vice versa), how do believers know that?

Regards
S.

[Gods_Mercenary]

That would be a matter of faith, which is illogical, which is what faith is.

[Jack]

Sadly, the nature of religious faith is such that it doesn't encourage further exploration into the concept of gods once a person has selected one to believe in. I don't imagine there are many average theists (i.e. non-Biblical scholars, non-theologians) who know squat about other religions and other gods. Christian, Muslim, Jew or Buddhist, few are skeptical enough to look beyond their own limited world for further enlightenment.

That's why people like Robertson and Falwell are so successful. They depend on their followers not to look anywhere but to them for spiritual guidance and teaching. For several hundred years blasphemy and denying god were punishable by death in several religions.

What I'm trying to say is that the average religious person isn't going to be able to give an informed opinion, as they have little or no knowledge of other gods.

[Pockets]

What many of a given faith seem to forget is religion is not like Science in that it seeks to prove or disprove a given theory. Since it is based in faith, it is subject to interpretation. How can one tell someone else his interpretation of a faith-based concept derived from his own sensibilities is incorrect? It's like saying George Bush' brother looks more like George Bush than George Bush. It can't even be argued. However, anyone that watches 'South Park' knows who would win in a fight between Santa Clause and Jesus Christ!

[Jack]

Religion is faith based, yes. Yet at the same time one thing they have faith in is that their particular god is the one true god. Otherwise they couldn't be considered true believers. Religion also preaches absolutes. Absolute truth, absolute faith, absolute judgment. So interpretation might be acknowledged, but they'd still believe their interpretation is the only correct one. Their belief that they practice the one true religion and worship the one true god has to be absolute or else they'll start to realize that their faith is just fervent hope, desperate wanting something to be true but not assured it is.

[Pockets]

Quote by: Isherwood Religion is faith based, yes. Yet at the same time one thing they have faith in is that their particular god is the one true god. Otherwise they couldn't be considered true believers. Religion also preaches absolutes. Absolute truth, absolute faith, absolute judgment. So interpretation might be acknowledged, but they'd still believe their interpretation is the only correct one. Their belief that they practice the one true religion and worship the one true god has to be absolute or else they'll start to realize that their faith is just fervent hope, desperate wanting something to be true but not assured it is.

I agree. It results in polar opposites and often an inability to coexist.

[Boetie]

If you were a Superior Being and you have two strategies which are:

1. Reveal yourself (establish your existence)
2. Don't reveal yourself (don't establish your existence)

And if you were a person and you have two strategies which are:

1. Don't believe in God's existence
2. Believe in God's existence

And each player is to achieve a goal which is:

SB:

[1] Primary goal - wants P to to believe in his existence

[2] Secondary goal - prefers not to reveal yourself

P:

[1] Primary goal -wants belief (or nonbelief) in SB's existence confirmed by evidence (or lack thereof)

[2] Secondary goal - prefers to believe in SB's existence

As either player how would you play out this game?

[arielmessenger]

"Religion also preaches absolutes. Absolute truth, absolute faith, absolute judgment. So interpretation might be acknowledged, but they'd still believe their interpretation is the only correct one."

What an extreme statement! You haven't talked with that many theists or otherwise you'd have discovered most theists don't consider themselves the bastion of absolute knowledge. Also, it's a large contradiction to to have "faith" in God and yet claim absolute knowledge. Most theists I know know better.

[Jack]

most theists don't consider themselves the bastion of absolute knowledge

I didn't mention knowledge. It would be insanity to pretend to possess absolute knowledge.
But theists do lay claim to the absolute truth. They depend on their faith being absolute, both in degree and in the right god. And they all believe in the absolute judgment of their god.
I don't see where you addressed the topic, "How do you know your god is the real one?" As the first theist to post in the thread, you have the first opportunity to answer the question.

[arielmessenger]

Quote by: Isherwood I didn't mention knowledge. It would be insanity to pretend to possess absolute knowledge. But theists do lay claim to the absolute truth. They depend on their faith being absolute, both in degree and in the right god. And they all believe in the absolute judgment of their god. I don't see where you addressed the topic, "How do you know your god is the real one?" As the first theist to post in the thread, you have the first opportunity to answer the question.

Isherwood, you're still creating a strawman with your extreme statements. "Absolute truth" isn't much different from "absolute knowledge"--both are false characterizations of theists I've known.

As for this thread topic, my observation would be my God is your God is his God is her God. The names have been changed to produce the ignorant.

[sdbest]

In the practical world, I suspect that the main reason most Christians believe in God, Muslims in Allah, and Hindus in Narayana is indoctrination from birth. Few people actually make a personal, informed choice about their religious beliefs. Obviously, childhood indoctrination is not an intellectually valid reason for believing in any particular deity, or anything for that matter.

For the sake of argument then let's assume that an atheist becomes legitimately convinced of the existence of a Supreme Being. How does the former atheist go about determining which of the many official descriptions of the Supreme Being (or Beings in the case of Hinduism) is the correct one? This is not a trivial matter because each religion's view has serious, practical consequences about how a person conducts his or her life. Pick the wrong religion and the results could be dire, indeed.

Regards
S.

[rez]

Quote by: sdbest In the practical world, I suspect that the main reason most Christians believe in God, Muslims in Allah, and Hindus in Narayana is indoctrination from birth. Few people actually make a personal, informed choice about their religious beliefs. Obviously, childhood indoctrination is not an intellectually valid reason for believing in any particular deity, or anything for that matter. For the sake of argument then let's assume that an atheist becomes legitimately convinced of the existence of a Supreme Being. How does the former atheist go about determining which of the many official descriptions of the Supreme Being (or Beings in the case of Hinduism) is the correct one? This is not a trivial matter because each religion's view has serious, practical consequences about how a person conducts his or her life. Pick the wrong religion and the results could be dire, indeed. Regards S.

Well in that case I would pick the god with the coolest and best magical powers.

[RickSp]

Quote by: rez Well in that case I would pick the god with the coolest and best magical powers.

Doesn't narrow it down much. There are so many to choose from.

[Sinner]

sdbest Despite the fact that I've yet to see any evidence that to me supports the notion of the existence of gods or other supernatural beings, I am legitimately curious about one thing. How do people who do believe in gods know that the particular god they worship is the true god and that the gods of others are false? If the Christian's God is real and Allah or Narayana are not (or vice versa), how do believers know that? Regards S.

I am happy to share why I believe my religion is The Truth. Firstly I have to explain what my religion is. I am an Orthodox Christian.

Despite all stereotypes and assumptions, I am an extrymly sceptical and cynical person. So my faith is not the result of simple mindness and unwarranted trustfulnessфы many of the atheists imply. So my faith is is the result of facts accumalating untill I could no longer ignore the evidence and become (perhaps not always obidient) slave of The Christ.

I understand that the evidence that was clear to me may not carry the same weight to you, nevertheless I will explain.

1. Nothing impacted the worlds history more than Christianity.
2. The forces of evil were and are very united when it cames to opposing Christianity.
3. Every single event in the history corresponds with The Truth preserved by The Church.
4. The Dogma is the most effective tool at analysis and interpretation of worlds events.
5. Noone ever managed to put a slightest dent in The Teaching of The Church in its 2000 years of existance despite numerous enemies and full control of the media by anti-Christian forces.
6. There is noone and nothing else which has an answer to any problem one may come up with.
7. The Dogma is the only theory which gives an explanation to the meaning of ones life.

Obviously there are many more reasons, yet this are the ones that come to mind immediately. The problem is significant reseach and mental ability involved in comprehending the reasons I have listed. So it is much easier and less mentally involved to be an atheist.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: sdbest Despite the fact that I've yet to see any evidence that to me supports the notion of the existence of gods or other supernatural beings, I am legitimately curious about one thing. How do people who do believe in gods know that the particular god they worship is the true god and that the gods of others are false? If the Christian's God is real and Allah or Narayana are not (or vice versa), how do believers know that? Regards S.

Ye shall know them by their words.

[Technosoul]

No one can prove that one God is real and the rest are false because each concept is based on the same principle which is faith.

And so it then comes down to trying to prove that your faith works for you and others in everyday life. But this still does not prove which "God" is for real and which concepts of God are false..

That is because faith in influenced by the powers of suggestion which can operate only if you believe. Belief is the "key factor" in all religions and other kinds of faiths. I have tested more then one religion by allowing my self to honestly believe in it, and the ones I have tested all work due to that belief, no matter if it is in the powers of Jesus, Wiccan magic, or the "anonymous powers of the universe", or Buddha. Through beief you can call on anything that you think can provide non-human assistance and that will activate the indwelling "resource" which can make things come true. Be it Paul the deciple of Christ or Dr Phil on TV - they can all transform your life if you believe in them and have faith in their directives.

Belief is a very powerful medium and it can even generate what some people would call a miricle. Or at least the believer would think so. And the only person you must prove anything to is your self.

Voodoo (power of suggestion) works because the "victim" believes in the supernatural powers of the person who claims to do Voodoo. He could say you will get sick, and by your belief, you will get sick. He can say "you are healed" and according to your faith, your illnesses will vanish. It really works, but not on the skeptical as easly. But even they are not beyond the powers that be.

Belief is a factural abilty that can empower a person. Faith is (should be) the understanding of those abilities and empowerments, Understanding or comprehending that a potential is realistically possible is "seeing" and faith is an act of seeing - which is called fore-knowledge. (rather then hindsite).

And so the answser is no because even if I proposed a scientific theory for the exisistance of a Creator God you would still have to believe in the evidence and math that I provide and then have faith in the truth of it. Because no one has a time machine to go back to eye-witness such events in real time.

[rez]

1. Nothing impacted the worlds history more than Christianity.

sounds rather simple minded to me. What about all the other religions in the world?

2. The forces of evil were and are very united when it cames to opposing Christianity.

Ahhh yes, more supernatural hocos pocos double talk from theists. Do these "forces of evil" hide under people's bed like the boogy man?

3. Every single event in the history corresponds with The Truth preserved by The Church.

More simple mindedness. You assume only the Church contains "truth" and no other religion.

4. The Dogma is the most effective tool at analysis and interpretation of worlds events.

Could you provide examples of some of these interpretations you speak of?

5. Noone ever managed to put a slightest dent in The Teaching of The Church in its 2000 years of existance despite numerous enemies and full control of the media by anti-Christian forces.

Predictable. Even though Christians are the majority within America, you claim that they are being oppressed. Why exactly do theists do this? As an atheist, I do not need to pick holes in the religion. I simply react to the doubles displayed by Christians themselves.

6. There is noone and nothing else which has an answer to any problem one may come up with.

More simple mindedness. What problems are you referring to? To claim that there are absolute answers within this complex universe requires one to be truly dishonest and unwilling to observe anything but a book written in the Bronze Age.

7. The Dogma is the only theory which gives an explanation to the meaning of ones life.

Your first mistake is making the assumption that there is a meaning to life.
I suppose if you could not think for yourself, then life would be meaningless without someone dictating your every move -- that my friend is the power of dogma. I am sorry you think this way.

[sdbest]

Sinner, while I sincerely appreciate your thoughtful response, I find your reasons wanting. I'd be happy to deal with each of them separately if you'd find that useful, but perhaps it would suffice to quibble with just one to make my point. You argue that "1. Nothing impacted the worlds history more than Christianity." This just isn't true. Democracy, capitalism, agriculture, AC electricity, energy from petroleum, the Internet, Mao Zedong all had more impact on history than Christianity. Indeed, Christianity is a rather newcomer to the "world's history." As a self-described "extrymly sceptical and cynical person" you, no doubt, understand that each of your points is easily refuted, despite the fact you may not accept the refutation.

However, for the sake of the discussion, let me accept all your points. The question now is which sect of Christianity is the correct one? There are thousands of them, as you know,some with profoundly differing views of the nature of God and Christ.

Regards
S.

[ItsDarts]

1. Nothing impacted the worlds history more than Christianity.

You mean like the Inquisitions, Crusades, Witch Hunts, Child molestation?? You might be right. It speaks volumes for your argument.

2. The forces of evil were and are very united when it cames to opposing Christianity.

The "forces of evil" were and are very united when it comes to opposing Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, Judaism etc... So how is this evidence for YOUR god?

3. Every single event in the history corresponds with The Truth preserved by The Church.

And Mosque, and Temple.... So far you are zero for three.

4. The Dogma is the most effective tool at analysis and interpretation of worlds events.

I agree, Dogma is an effective tool to use against the sheople, but anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that there is an ax to grind by the perpetrators of the dogma and the dogma should be questioned.

5. Noone ever managed to put a slightest dent in The Teaching of The Church in its 2000 years of existance despite numerous enemies and full control of the media by anti-Christian forces.

Nonsense, it appears you worship the church more than the god, you "Sinner" Repent, I tell you, Repent. Science alone refutes the teachings of things like 6 day creations, the lack of dinosaurs in the bible, the fact there is no evidence of 3 day old dead people coming back to life.

6. There is noone and nothing else which has an answer to any problem one may come up with.

Huh? What problem? examples please.

7. The Dogma is the only theory which gives an explanation to the meaning of ones life.

Dogma is not a theory, Life meaning is different for everyone, stop trying to be a sheople. Life can mean what ever you want it to mean. To me it means live and let live according to societal laws with in reason. My meaning is much more tolerant of others than any dogma your church teaches.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Sinner 1. Nothing impacted the worlds history more than Christianity.

Appeal to tradition. This is a type of logical fallacy.

2. The forces of evil were and are very united when it cames to opposing Christianity.

Ridiculous. Support your statement or retract it. There is no evidence there is anything in existence known as "the forces of evil".

3. Every single event in the history corresponds with The Truth preserved by The Church.

Except the resurrection of Christ. There is no evidence the gospel Jesus existed and considerable evidence proving he never existed. See the "Jesus Never Existed" link in my signature for support.

4. The Dogma is the most effective tool at analysis and interpretation of worlds events.

Thank you for that glowing endorsement of church propaganda. Call me crazy, but I've always held the most effective tool at analysis and interpretation of world events is my own brain / the brain of the individual.

How can you say that you've investigated Christianity when it's clear you buy into Christian propaganda? That's like saying, "I know Pepsi is the best cola because everything Pepsi publishes says it's the best cola."

5. Noone ever managed to put a slightest dent in The Teaching of The Church in its 2000 years of existance despite numerous enemies and full control of the media by anti-Christian forces.

I guess you're ignoring the overturning of the geocentric model in astronomy, the recalculation of the age of the earth, the replacement of creationism & "intelligent" design with evolution, and the minority of scholars & thinkers who for the last 200 years have understood Jesus never existed.

Don't ignore evidence. Don't present propaganda as evidence.

6. There is noone and nothing else which has an answer to any problem one may come up with.

O_o What on earth are you talking about?

7. The Dogma is the only theory which gives an explanation to the meaning of ones life.

There are an unlimited number of grammatically valid questions beginnin with "why" and ending in a question mark which are completely nonsensical.

"Why does volconvo.com drink volkswagon?"

"Why are calculators corrupted by George Lucas' pen pal?"

The idea that was have some purpose is nonsensical. Clearly, our purpose is whatever we contrive / choose it to be.

You have failed to present a compelling argument that your god is the real god and you've failed to prove that you've investigated your religion.