Jesus Tomb

[Jack]

How do you figure there is just a single account?

There's the Bible and...?

[Dirty Name]

First of all, I'm not denying that jesus rose, that's for another thread, I'm denying that your interpretation of the passion stories is correct.

Ahh yes... the blanket denial. Effectively negating my argument, point-by-point, without even breaking a sweat.

Perhaps you'd like to provide specific evidence as to why "my" interpretation is incorrect, while yours are somehow more accurate.

[Dirty Name]

There's the Bible and...?

The Bible itself is not just a single account, it's a compilation of accounts from a number of authors. Of course, if you didn't already know this, much can be understood about your point of view. On the other hand, if you did know this but chose to be dishonest about it, well, then, your integrity is called into question.

Which is it?

[Jack]

Ten of the twelve disciples claim to have seen Jesus Christ in the flesh AFTER he was crucified, and were willing to stick to that story even unto their deaths.

How many of his followers died along with David Koresh? Dying for a cause doesn't validate the cause. It does speak to the sincerity of your own belief. If the post-Biblical accounts of the lives of the apostles is accurate, all it is evidence of is the depth of their belief. The veracity of Jesus as a god is a separate issue.

[Jack]

it's a compilation of accounts from a number of authors.

Four to be exact, and they aren't consistent in every detail. And their accounts were limited to what's been collected in a single tome that for hundreds of years was the sole property of the church. Who's to say how much was altered to agree with church doctrine?

[loser]

As an article of faith, nothing in the real world has any effect on belief. Belief is beyond logic, beyond proof and beyond credibility. It's a fond hope, and nothing can erase a fond hope from the mind of one who holds fast to it in spite of reason.

Totally untrue. If nothing in the 'real' world had any effect on belief, beliefs would never change. They do.

Belief indeed may be beyond logic but only because it is built upon logic!

It is BELIEF precisely because it is beyond proof, else it would be KNOWLEDGE!

The definition for CREDIBILITY is a capacity for belief or the quality, capability, or power to elicit belief. In other words, you're wrong again!

I really BELIEVE that you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about!

Without belief, you got nothing...

[loser]

Someone able to revitalize themselves after they have died is impossible.

That's not the argument. He didn't revitalize himself...He was revitalized by ANOTHER!

Is that possible, in your opinion?

[Jack]

If nothing in the 'real' world had any effect on belief, beliefs would never change.

Beliefs change through an internal process of analysis and consideration of data from the outside. Reality doesn't affect belief unless one allows it to do so. As we can see in religion, outside realities have no effect on belief (faith) unless the individual permits it. It's all about what goes on in your brain, not what goes on in the real world.

Belief indeed may be beyond logic but only because it is built upon logic!

In some situations that may be true. It does not apply to religion, however.

It is BELIEF precisely because it is beyond proof, else it would be KNOWLEDGE!

No argument there.

The definition for CREDIBILITY is a capacity for belief or the quality, capability, or power to elicit belief.

I don't know the source of your definition, but here's one that relates to the context in which I used the term;

Credibility is the believability of a statement, action, or source, and the propensity of the observer to believe that statement. In public speaking, Aristotle considered the credibility of the speaker, his character, to be one of the forms of proof. Contemporary social science research has generally found that there are several dimensions of credibility. Berlo and Lemert (1961) noted three: competence, trustworthiness and dynamism.

Credibility - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So am I wrong, or do I just not agree with your opinion on the matter?

[Dirty Name]

How many of his followers died along with David Koresh? Dying for a cause doesn't validate the cause. It does speak to the sincerity of your own belief. If the post-Biblical accounts of the lives of the apostles is accurate, all it is evidence of is the depth of their belief. The veracity of Jesus as a god is a separate issue.

Nice try... but there are some key differences between Koresh and Christ's disciples:

1) None of Koresh's followers chose to die, as far as we know. They chose to remain in the house, and likely had no idea they were going to be burned to death.

2) None of Koresh's followers claimed to have definitive proof that Koresh was God. Christ's disciples were claiming quite literally that they witnessed incontrovertible proof that Jesus Christ was, in fact, God - because they saw him die with their own eyes, and they saw him alive at a later point in time.

Any other attempted modern-day parallels?

[Dirty Name]

Four to be exact, and they aren't consistent in every detail.

So I guess it's your integrity we should question, and not your level of knowledge.

[loser]

It has to do with Christians long & well-documented history of MURDERING people who suggest their god isn't real or si slightly different than depicted in the gospels.

What a strawman! If Christians were the only murderers to exist, you might have a point. However, as even scripture can tell you, murdering by humans has existed as long as...humans (Cain, FIRST man ever born murdered his brother!)!!!

Look at all of the homosexual atheists populating the top ten serial killers list.

What are the greatest reasons why most murders are committed?

Sex, money, and racial hatred (nationalism).

Let's get rid of the sun...it's the MAIN reason for sunburn!

[loser]

1) Abraham Lincoln was president during the American civil war. 2) Abraham Lincoln was assassinated. 3) Abraham Lincoln was warned of his assassination by an angel and chose to maryr himself. The first two claims are evidenced. Think they're enough to prove the third? If you say yes, then you're mistaken. If you say no, then you've contradicted yourself.

Just because the first two statements can't prove the third, doesn't make the third statement untrue. If you think so, you're mistaken.

[loser]

It is remarkable how emotional arguments can hijack the reason & logic of intelligent individuals to the point of rejecting evidence in favor of propaganda.

You got that right...it's the proof that ALL humans are IDIOTS (They'll believe just about anything they're told)!!!

[loser]

It would be much more enticing to become a theist, if they actually did not lie and manipulate people into believing their doctrine.

You're looking for a REAL Christian, then.

[loser]

Before the whole "happy ending" thing, the Disciples ran and hid, afraid that the Jews would go after them next. In fact, instead of it being Peter, James, or John that first saw Jesus, as would have gone in legend due to the woman's inability to be a witness in a court, it was a gaggle of women, including at least both Mary's. Again, something that would have been there if it had been "made up" is not there.

Good points. Also, the Gospels would not have had so many 'obvious' contradictions (different POV's) if they had all gotten together to 'get their stories straight'. Talk to someone in law enforcement. They will tell you that when the accounts differ widely, it is a sure sign that they are telling the truth. When the accounts agree perfectly, you can bet that they are lies.

[loser]

Realistically, no jew would have asked the romans to kill another jew, unless far worse repercussions were in order if they weren't killed. Jesus was crucified for crimes against rome, probably because of his entrance into jerusalem as a king, which presented him as a danger. The romans didn't do the pharisees dirty work, roman legionaries don't work for mere provincials who only had power because rome though it convenient for them to.

This shows your lack of knowledge of the events and the times. Read a little more and the truth will become clearer to you.

[loser]

The Romans as a tool is laughable, pontius pilate was later removed because he was so brutal to all jews. Pilate was the only one with real military power, with the most dominant army the world has ever seen behind him.

Ahh, the power of dreams...what might they PORTEND?

[Dirty Name]

It does speak to the sincerity of your own belief.

One more point in this:

The disciples aren't claiming they BELIEVE Christ was God. They stated quite clearly that they witnessed, with their own two eyes, manifest PROOF that Christ rose from the dead to live again. They also claim to have witnessed numerous miracles with their own eyes.

So we aren't talking about suppositions or best guesses here. Your only choices are:

1) They were lying through their teeth and chose to die for those lies, OR
2) They were telling the truth and were willing to die for that.

[loser]

It seems most are ignoring the central premise of this thread, which is that either James Cameron is wrong, or Zhavric is wrong.

That premise would make for a boring thread, indeed.

I can offer this to you as an ABSOLUTE FACT:

They are BOTH wrong!

[loser]

Yeishu hung on a tree as per Jewish law, and then buried in a cabbage patch somewhere in Lydda.

Cabbage patch...good one, har-har.