Humans outside of the Food Chain:

[Praxius]

I remember a thread a while back about the rights of animals, and how humans are at the top of the food chain, etc.

Many humans, or at least some members here in the forums think that since we're at the top of the food chain, we shouldn't care about how many animals we hunt, kill, eat, use for entertainment, etc. Some people here feel that animals shouldn't have the rights or similar rights to life as humans have. Some here think that the animals, plants and the Earth itself are here for our personal use and gain and we can and should do whatever we feel.

I thought of an interesting concept. Are we really at the top of the food chain or are we even still a part of it?

The Food Chain is related to the concept of "Survival of the Fittest" so to speak.... but wouldn't you considder that humans are no longer in the stage of evolution where we need to worry about our survival from other animals, but ourselves.

So if we really don't need to worry about being taken out by another species on our planet, would you considder us out of the food chain? And if this is the case, don't you think we should be in a different category from other animals?

Shouldn't we be more concerned with protecting and substaining the planet and animals we live on and with, rather then treating it all as expendable for our own pleasure and holding onto the "Survival of the Fittest" mentality?

If there is a God, then we must be between God and animals, even religion states this similarly. So why should we still be considdered in the same category and using natural laws we claim for animals for ourselves as well?

Without the planet in a healthy state, and without the animals on this planet we share it with, we will not survive on our own, so why not help increase our chances of survival in the long run, by helping the other animals with their survival?

[Osborn F Enready]

I reason it due to these things:

Humans eat meat for a rich protein source, and amino acids.
Humans depend on the enviroment for survival.
Humans use force to obtain animal meat.
Humans require land for survival, crops, livestock, living.

Animals eat meat for a rich protein source, and amino acids.
Animals depend on the enviroment for survival.
Animals use force to obtain animal meat.
Animals require land for survival and prey, as well as living.


We are very much part of the same food chain, and animals prove it each time they kill and/or maim a human in an attack, of which the number of incidents grow as populations expand.

We all depend on each other, and should recognize such through individual recognition of this by conscientious land management to the extent we can individually manage.

Every living thing on this earth has the power to permanently change the enviroment, thereby extinguishig all other life dependent on a possible change.

Under nature, we are all part of the same food chain, and nature is all that is above it unless we terraform another planet to provide us more resources.

[Praxius]

Well granted, I know we still have to hunt and eat animals for food.... I was more geared to the mentality where we feel we can do whatever we want and not worry about it, because we're on the top of the Food Chain.

[Osborn F Enready]

I agree, that is a problem.

I think the best means to effecting change in that area, is to re-instill the importance of small business as opposed to national or multi-national exploiters.

[Autolykos]

In a way, we sort of have our own ecosystem. We raise certain animals purely for our own benefit. We also grow plants for both our benefit and for the benefit of those animals. Basically, we have our own food chain, and we're at the top.

Do you see anything wrong with this? I don't.

- Rob

[xyzer]

The dominant species at the time is considered at the top of the food chain..is it not? This can be applied in a world or local sense depending on how one defines it!
Humans are pretty much the dominant species in the world..with some local exceptions where there are not many. We have the power of rationalization and creative thought! Logic rarther than instinct and brute strength.

[Osborn F Enready]

Auto said: Do you see anything wrong with this? I don't.

I don't see a problem unless profit takes precedent over viability of the system, through preservation. That is not natural in capitalism, until exploitation is allowed to spread beyond the community directly affected, which is the role of monopoly, and corporation.

[ZNFYRH]

For the reason that Autolykos said, humans aren't part of a food chain. There is a certain natural process "Circle of Life" with the food chain and we humans break that.

[Praxius]

Being at the top of the food chain kinda means that you're still vulnerable to some aspects of nature..... humans as a collective are kinda beyond this definition. There isn't one species on the planet, currently, that can cause the human species to be worried about being taken off the top, or becoming extinct.

We create and we destroy.... we have imagination, we have personality. We have goals, likes and dislikes. We are now beyond trying to find some territory of land, shelter, and food for survival to procreate.... we're more pressed for what we want to do with our lives instead. We have our own enviroments we created ourselfs, we have animals that we use for our own purposes, we are now out in space for that matter.

So with all of this, why should we still be considdered at the top of the food chain? We no longer even relate to the food chain imo.

[ZNFYRH]

I agree, Praxius. The Food Chain concept has always represented a natural process of predator and prey. Humans should not be considered predators when (1) there are animals that are capable of killing us, sans technology and (2) we artificially manipulate nature to fee ourselves.

[Osborn F Enready]

The Food Chain concept has always represented a natural process of predator and prey. Humans should not be considered predators when (1) there are animals that are capable of killing us, sans technology and (2) we artificially manipulate nature to fee ourselves.

So, am I to postulate the idea that man is not a predator toward animals or plants?

Technology is not food, and we are a functional part of the food chain as we have shaped nature around us, to our ability.

Nature still kicks our ass from time to time, which reveals in truth we are second in the natural food chain, which NATURE dictates.

[ZNFYRH]

I understand what you mean. I'm not sure how to express this idea correctly.

What I'm trying to say is that because we can, as you imply, manipulate and shape nature for our benefit, we are outside the natural system. Something that can manipulate a thing is not a part of that thing, but outside of it.

In that sense, I'm postulating that humans no longer hold the status of "predator" because that term carries a naturally implied superiority. We "cheated the system", so to speak, by stepping outside of it.

[Osborn F Enready]

Would you say we take the form of "prey" to nature?

If not, how would you enumerate the idea?

[ZNFYRH]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Would you say we take the form of "prey" to nature? If not, how would you enumerate the idea?

No. Nature doesn't consume us to survive, so to speak. I know one could argue that global warming is nature's way of getting rid of us so it can live, but you know what I mean, right?

I don't understand what you mean by "enumerate".

[Osborn F Enready]

Z said: I don't understand what you mean by "enumerate".

I was asking you to explain the logic of your idea of our relationship with nature, in a way that is different from other natural life-forms.

I am not saying that, as one organism, the universe kills of off for food.

I am saying by natural observable law, nature will ravage man to the extent that man allows. Its a fact.

According to my understanding, all living beings in the natural world succumb to natural forces, if it is beyond their means to defend from it. Nature is not "killing us for survival", but in comparison to nature, we pale to natures forces that dominate our existence.

So, in my logic, nature and the universe as we know it, dictate our "realities" limitations, and does so by species through limitation of ability, and does so by "force" which science has observed, measured and documented.

Nature uses force to dominate man.
Man uses force to dominate nature, to the extent that he can control.

We are animals, but the highest animals in the animal kingdom that nature has provided.

We dominate all living species using force, while the natural reality we can't overcome, uses force to dominate us, at its whim.

The observation of this rank as nature has placed us, put us into the position to draw a truce with our fellow man, based on natural rights, which is effectively a truce between all equals within a species who accept it of free-will. An agreement not to use force for offense, only defense, among our own species, regardless of beliefs, ideals, values or morals.

The key issue here, is force, applied in law, natural and mans.

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: ZNFYRH I understand what you mean. I'm not sure how to express this idea correctly. What I'm trying to say is that because we can, as you imply, manipulate and shape nature for our benefit, we are outside the natural system. Something that can manipulate a thing is not a part of that thing, but outside of it. In that sense, I'm postulating that humans no longer hold the status of "predator" because that term carries a naturally implied superiority. We "cheated the system", so to speak, by stepping outside of it.

Absent humans, in most ecosystems, wolves have nothing to fear from any other animal. Absent humans, wolves are at the top of the food chain. (And, humans don't kill wolves for food, but merely to eliminate competition.) A wolf will not be killed by a rabbit. A wolf might, accidentally be killed by a mature elk or some such, but, generally has nothing to fear in the animal kingdom.

Does that put a wolf outside of the food chain?

A clear understanding of the food chain shows that, even the creature at the top is recycled into the "chain". After that animal dies, microbes and such consume the decaying corpse to return the biological material to further use.

Are you trying to say that the human animal is immune from such "recycling"?

Sure, we try to delay it as much as possible, but even the most well made coffin will eventually return your biological matter into the cycle.

Keith

[ZNFYRH]

A wolf kills to eat, or kills to eliminate competition.

Humans, being omnivorous and possessing of technology, can move throughout the chain at will as well as ignore it altogether.

And to answer Osborn, I agree that humans and nature are constantly in contention. That is precisely why we are outside the chain.

I think that because we can move from any chain to any other chain, and any position in each, the only thing that can "consume" us is nature. We don't struggle to maintain our place in the food chain like other animals. We struggle against nature to shape the chain to match our wants.

[Osborn F Enready]

I can't agree with that.

I see what you're saying, but I don't agree.

I see no reason why man should be removed from the chain he is forced into, and can't leave.

He may make small changes here and there, but nature overwhelms us as we overwhelm the natural life below us, as it does the natural life below it.

It wouldn't take much for our lives to be erased from the globe.....by natural events.

Even today, man would have trouble doing that collectively, let alone as nation states.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Praxius I remember a thread a while back about the rights of animals, and how humans are at the top of the food chain, etc. Many humans, or at least some members here in the forums think that since we're at the top of the food chain, we shouldn't care about how many animals we hunt, kill, eat, use for entertainment, etc. Some people here feel that animals shouldn't have the rights or similar rights to life as humans have. Some here think that the animals, plants and the Earth itself are here for our personal use and gain and we can and should do whatever we feel. I thought of an interesting concept. Are we really at the top of the food chain or are we even still a part of it? The Food Chain is related to the concept of "Survival of the Fittest" so to speak.... but wouldn't you considder that humans are no longer in the stage of evolution where we need to worry about our survival from other animals, but ourselves. So if we really don't need to worry about being taken out by another species on our planet, would you considder us out of the food chain? And if this is the case, don't you think we should be in a different category from other animals? Shouldn't we be more concerned with protecting and substaining the planet and animals we live on and with, rather then treating it all as expendable for our own pleasure and holding onto the "Survival of the Fittest" mentality? If there is a God, then we must be between God and animals, even religion states this similarly. So why should we still be considdered in the same category and using natural laws we claim for animals for ourselves as well? Without the planet in a healthy state, and without the animals on this planet we share it with, we will not survive on our own, so why not help increase our chances of survival in the long run, by helping the other animals with their survival?

Animals are not the only creatures within the food chain, micro organizems also are part of it and humans are being consumed by a number of those tiny beings. Sometimes they kill us.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I can't agree with that. I see what you're saying, but I don't agree. I see no reason why man should be removed from the chain he is forced into, and can't leave. He may make small changes here and there, but nature overwhelms us as we overwhelm the natural life below us, as it does the natural life below it. It wouldn't take much for our lives to be erased from the globe.....by natural events. Even today, man would have trouble doing that collectively, let alone as nation states.

Yes, but we're talking about the food chain, not natural selection..... we have no predators above us at the moment..... we don't control our lives, but we don't have to worry about any animals controlling ours or making ours as a whole dangerous.