Humans outside of the Food Chain:

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: Technosoul Also like us, most preditors do not eat other preditors. We do not fancy eating tigers or dogs for food anymore. The preditors normally attack the viggie eaters - those that graze on grass for example - mice, rabbits, deer, cows, plus fish and frogs. So the wolves and lions keep the deer from eating up to many plants, and that keeps things in balance. Nature somehow controls the populaton of the preditors so they do not over-consume the plant eaters.

Actually, that's an interesting point. It has been said that humans kill for purposes other than eating. And that is a unique feature of humans.

But, that's not true.

Many predators will kill competing predators given a chance. Not for food but to eliminate competition in the ecosystem. Very rarely will full grown predators go up against one another, because that can be very dangerous to all involved. But, if a large cat (lion, tiger, cheetah) finds the opportunity to eliminate the young of another predatory species, they will take that opportunity. In fact, many predators will kill the young of other families of their own kind if given the chance.

Some nsects farm, other predators kill for sport or to eliminate competition, many animals are territorial, some primates and birds use tools. The only thing that makes humans unique are that we don't live on instinct and can bring all of these techniques together into a single species. Of course, the synthesis has allowed us to, over millenia, take those efforts to a completely different level. But the difference is more one of quantity, rather than quality.

Keith

[ZNFYRH]

Gods Mercenary,

Notice that in answering the questions I posed you had to use multiple species. For instance, you mentioned orcas. When left alone, there is still a balance of populations based on the rate at which orcas kill whales.

But if you truly see no difference between those animals doing what they do based on natural ability and humans doing it artificially, there is nothing else I can say to convince you.

[Gods_Mercenary]

And chimps use sticks to eat bugs, which is beyond their natural ability. Creating tools is our natural ability, our intelligence is just as much an evolutionary tool as the orca's teeth or the lion's claws.

[ZNFYRH]

I think you're missing the point. Yes, the chimps use a tool. But they don't artificially recreate the supply of bugs.

Again, it is not about the tools. It's about the manipulation of populations and supply.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Which is a natural ability we are given by our intelligence. By the way, there are ants that do farm algae, and others that control and feed populations of other bugs to feed themselves. If that's not a manioulation of populaions and supply, I don't know what is.

[ZNFYRH]

Then maybe it's just me, but I see a fundamental difference between what humans do and what ants do. No matter.

[Kamehameha34]

Quote by: ZNFYRH Are humans naturally consumed as a form of sustenance for another animal? No. Do humans naturally consume other species in a way that functions in an ecological balance? No. We don't need to "naturally" catch and eat chickens. We breed them in isolated environments. We consume plants that we grow ourselves. The food chain is natural; in the wild, so to speak. Humans are no longer a part of that.

The problem is, you're taking what you define as "natural" and claiming that only things that are natural can be considered in the food chain.

Sure, we maintain our own food supply, but what does that have to do with anything? The food chain is dictated by certain animals' abilities to eat other animals, nothing more. To my knowledge, we can eat any non-poisonous animal on Earth. That means we're at the top.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Keith Hamburger Actually, that's an interesting point. It has been said that humans kill for purposes other than eating. And that is a unique feature of humans. But, that's not true. Many predators will kill competing predators given a chance. Not for food but to eliminate competition in the ecosystem. Very rarely will full grown predators go up against one another, because that can be very dangerous to all involved. But, if a large cat (lion, tiger, cheetah) finds the opportunity to eliminate the young of another predatory species, they will take that opportunity. In fact, many predators will kill the young of other families of their own kind if given the chance. Some nsects farm, other predators kill for sport or to eliminate competition, many animals are territorial, some primates and birds use tools. The only thing that makes humans unique are that we don't live on instinct and can bring all of these techniques together into a single species. Of course, the synthesis has allowed us to, over millenia, take those efforts to a completely different level. But the difference is more one of quantity, rather than quality. Keith

Those points are true now that you have reminded me about them. I can recall when our female cat had kittens and a male tom cat came in and killed all the male babies but not the female babies. However I have never seen a full grown tom cat kill another full grown tom cat during thier mating truf fights. (although it sure sounds like it in the middle of the night).

I have seen my well fed cat attack mice and just play with them because they have that compulsion to attack mice. Sometimes they will kill a mouse and then get bored with it and walk away, without interest in it for food. Just like when humans enjoy the excitement of hunting even if they do not need the food.

But this only suggests that killing is not always related to food chain drama.
Some animals eat each other, in this dog eat dog world even a humans have done so. But as a general rule we do have a food chain but it is not always based on the factors of intelligence. The idea that the higher spicies feed upon the lower spicies might not always be the case. Feeding can be conducted by preditor hunting or by gathering food (such as grapes and nuts). Most of us do not have to hunt or gather food we just go to the supermarket and buy it, which can give us the impression we are outside of the food chain. We get to buy more food if we make a killing in the stock market, or if we gather clients through advertising traps. We hunt and gather money instead. You can compare some of the activities of business with being a preditor or a gatherer.

Nature is still balanced by the consume and being consumed system of things, And it is true that humans in developed countries are somewhat removed from the nitty gritty of that system on a personal level. Although still potentially subject to it. A major tragic incident could put us right back in the mix of things again - forcing us to act like the rest of the animals in nature. But such is not likely to happen. And also, being a preditor is not always about killing for food, as was pointed out already. Being a gatherer is not always about collecting enough apples for today's meal. Some creatures gather lots of nuts and bury them in the gound for winter useage, and that is how trees get planted and in spring they grow if the creature forgets where they hid the nuts. Humans like to collect things like money and it can become addictive and they end up with more then they need for day to day survivial.

Now I know that the food factories must kill the cows and chickens and they must gather all the viggies and fruits from the farmers for us to buy, but the supermarket is none the less a factor that seperates us from doing the killing and gathering ( or farming), getting our food at a drive thur fast food stand is hardly the same thing as attacking an animal in the woods for food. Opening a can of green beans is hardly the same thing as hunting around in the bushes for something to eat. And if we live in a populated area it is very unlikely that some wild animal would be walking around seeking a human for food. They might eat our pet cat or rummage in our garbage for food, but we have little to fear nowadays from non-human preditors. In more remote areas we merly need to avoid close encounters with bears and other animals that are agressive - like rattlesnakes. Which is pretty easy to do most of the time. And so we have removed our self from most of the food chain compeition for those reasons, but it is still out there in the real world where everything is still natural and where we do not dominate things with our population majority and technological advancements.

[ZNFYRH]

Technosoul,

Your last paragraph exemplifies the point I've been trying to make. Whether or not that was your intention, I respect your ability to put it into different words.

[Praxius]

Another aspect you could look at, is there arn't too many other animals on the planet who are involved in the reproduction of other species.... they normally just hunt and kill them, and allowing them to reproduce on their own natural abilities.... we as humans we have our hands right into it..... we mass produce tha animals as we deem they should be for our own uses.

You don't normally see a pack of wolves chasing down a female and a male deer, into a corner, and howeling at them until they get it on, and then come back in a few months to eat the baby.

People here have mentioned monkeys using sticks to get their food..... well otters use rocks to smash open shell fish for food..... it's one thing to use the enviroment around you to sustain your life (Toosl for food, shelter, etc.) and it's another thing to take tools from nature and manipulate their structure to make more advance tools to how we want them.

[sevendogs]

Yes, we are not alone in "domestication". This is sometimes called "co-evolution", then, our domestication is a part of it. We domesticated, unintentionally, parasitic worms comfortably living inside of our intestines. At first, parasites are very drastic in their effects on the host, but gradually, they adjust to the host so not to damage it too much and then, both the host and the parasite can coexist and reproduce successfully enough. Our domesticated animals undergone changes similar to parasites: decrease of mobility and increase of fertility. Dogs and cats come in heat more often, mature faster and give birth to more young per litter, etc. Insect world provides a lot of examples of depredation, milder depredation, parasitism and commensalism, etc. Some parasitic wasps have larvae specialized to parasitic way of life, but when adults, they became sophisticated and highly specialized predators and there is plenty of cruelty in their world, for example, eating still alive, but doomed larva of the big host insect.

[ZNFYRH]

I think the biggest problem I'm having with this topic is that I can't articulate something that I see so clearly.

Praxius also expressed it quite well.

Humans are significantly different in how we do things.

[Osborn F Enready]

No matter how different we are, we are still governed by nature, eaten by nature, killed by nature, and therefore within the food chain of natural species.

Animals kill people all the time, especially helpless ones.

We are still part of the food chain, especially when our collective ignorance facillitates it.

[sevendogs]

Exactly! We are a part of biosphere.

[pikatore]

Quote by: Kamehameha34 To my knowledge, we can eat any non-poisonous animal on Earth.

So can a rat. And some animals can eat poisionous ones without ill effects Does that make them at the top of the food chain as well?