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ItsDarts · Feb 20, 2007, 12:10 pm

Below is a dialog I had with a Pentacostal, unfortunately I had to cut it short but it was probably for the best, as you will see. Here is a little primer on how it got started in the first place.... I was in a chat room on AOL (yeah I know, hush

) She noticed my profile and blurted out in the room, "So Darts, you're an atheist? I replied politely with a Yes. I don't hide my atheism. She proceded to do an "LOL" in the room and I asked why she thought that funny. Her response was, "I'll spare the room the drama of answering that." I said fair enough since religious debates never go over very well in this chat room. I proceded to IM her and asked the same question. What's so funny? I also wanted to clarify her faith so I had something, anything to work with. Afterall, we should always know what god(s) we're discussing. The real screen names have been changed to protect the innocent....

ItsDarts [8:57 A.M.]: Are you an Evangelical Christian?
ItsDarts [8:57 A.M.]: Born Again?
Nessa [8:57 A.M.]: Im penticostal
ItsDarts [8:59 A.M.]: So you believe that god still reveals himself to man
Nessa [8:59 A.M.]: absolutley...
ItsDarts [8:59 A.M.]: I use to be christian (thats how I was raised and so were my parents and so on and so on)
ItsDarts [9:00 A.M.]: So I do know about christianity
Nessa [9:00 A.M.]: so u turned ur back on God eh?
ItsDarts [9:00 A.M.]: however, what makes your belief any more correct than say a Lutheran or catholic
ItsDarts [9:00 A.M.]: I did no such thing.
ItsDarts [9:00 A.M.]: Can't turn your back on something that isn't there
ItsDarts [9:01 A.M.]: I lack belief in god(s)
ItsDarts [9:01 A.M.]: nothing more
ItsDarts [9:01 A.M.]: I make no positive claims
ItsDarts [9:01 A.M.]: I don't say god doesn't exist, I say I lack belief in god(s)
Nessa [9:02 A.M.]: u deny that Jesus is the Son of God and the u need to have a Peronal Relationship with him.. and that he sacrificed his life so u could live life and life more abondantly.... and so that u could have everlasting life... u deny that.. So yes Im sorry but to God in his eyes U Deny Him becaus u Deny his Son
ItsDarts [9:02 A.M.]: I have not seen evidence to support the god concept.
ItsDarts [9:03 A.M.]: not one christian has ever been able to give evidence of support
Nessa [9:03 A.M.]: Open ur EYES
ItsDarts [9:03 A.M.]: trust me, I have.
Nessa [9:04 A.M.]: Darts Ive been were u are.. I walked away from God.. but u know Jesus is married to the backslider.. so Belive me there is hope for u yet :)
ItsDarts [9:04 A.M.]: you must try to understand that just because you feel you have an imaginary friend and you have a "personal relationship" with an imaginary friend, doesn't mean everyone will feel what you feel
ItsDarts [9:05 A.M.]: You are doing nothing but paroting what your bible study teacher has told you
Nessa [9:05 A.M.]: there is nothing imaginary about JESUS CHRIST/GOD/THE HOLY SPIRIT

ItsDarts [9:05 A.M.]: you offer not support for your claims and I must logically reject any claims until proven with empirical evidence
Nessa [9:05 A.M.]: Im sorry my dear I dont belive in Organized Religion so I dont go to Bible Study..lol
ItsDarts [9:06 A.M.]: OK, let me ask you this, how much of the history of the bible do you know?
Nessa [9:06 A.M.]: ok if u need evidence.. Ask God to Revile himself to u
Nessa [9:06 A.M.]: And Belive me He will
ItsDarts [9:07 A.M.]: I've asked your god and all other gods, no one has sppoken up
ItsDarts [9:07 A.M.]: can you answer my question? How much of the history of the bible do you know?
Nessa [9:07 A.M.]: maybe they have u haev rejected what u have heard becasue u didnt like what u heard
ItsDarts [9:08 A.M.]: please, I have not "heard" anything. Invisable beings can not logically talk
Nessa [9:08 A.M.]: ill pray for u Darts.. because u live in a world bound by chains only God himself can set u free from
ItsDarts [9:09 A.M.]: Do you hear yourself? I've asked you questions and all you can come back with is offers for prayers
ItsDarts [9:10 A.M.]: You can pray all you like, but please find something better to do with your time. Many christians have prayed for me over the years, if he exists, he isn't listening
ItsDarts [9:11 A.M.]: I offer you logical reasons why he can't exist and you ignore me, this is typical in fundimentalists, evangelicals and penticostals. You offer no rational thought
ItsDarts [9:12 A.M.]: When you can come back to me with some history of the bible, maybe we can talk agian. For now I do have a meeting to attend and I wish you a good day.

If I have more discussions with her, I'll post them here. Any advice for future discussions would be appreciated.

Zhavric · Feb 20, 2007, 12:26 pm

Quote:

Nessa [9:02 A.M.]: u deny that Jesus is the Son of God and the u need to have a Peronal Relationship with him.. and that he sacrificed his life so u could live life and life more abondantly.... and so that u could have everlasting life... u deny that.. So yes Im sorry but to God in his eyes U Deny Him becaus u Deny his Son

"If Superman isn't real then who saved Lois Lane all those times? Who stopped Lex Luthor from destroying the world?"

lol

But seriously, to someone like that, Jesus' historical existence is absolute fact and Jesus' historical existence helps prove / justify the rest of their claims. I recommend you challenge the existence of Jesus...

... and just accept that you're a lot like Morpheus in The Matrix before he found Neo: most people aren't ready to be unplugged.

phoenix_fire · Feb 20, 2007, 01:45 pm

Again, I find it ironic that you would use that example, Z.

Darts, I don't think you're ever going to find common ground with her, and that's the problem. Furthermore, you are both (yes both) simply repeating a memorized script for these situations and neither of you have yet to talk to the other. If you want to have a gainful conversation with her, you will have to stop seeing each other as potential converts and start talking as people. A lot of this is terminology driven. So long as one of you uses the jargon and/or phraseology of Christian or atheist apologetics, the other probably will and that is where the conversation will remain. If you want her to actually speak from outside what she thinks she's supposed to believe and say, find ways to couch your arguments in regular words. I would also suggest that you ask more questions instead of making statements. Get her to have to think through her responses more. For example, instead of saying:

Quote:

You are doing nothing but paroting what your bible study teacher has told you

try asking her how she came about her beliefs. Be interested in what she has to say, and don't assume that you're going to be the one to change her mind.

Duke1985 · Feb 20, 2007, 02:26 pm

I've tried arguing with Christians it never works.
1. You can't argue repetition, which I've seen them employ as a tactic many times. If you say, "I don't believe in Jesus" and I say, "He's real" and no matter what you say after that, I just keep saying, "He's real" maybe sometimes they'll repackage it so it doesn't sound like repetition, but they just spew the same message over and over until you cave or walk away.

2. Phoenix is right, acting like each other will magically drop their faith and convert won't get you anywhere. Going into the discussion with the mind set that you can convert them to whatever school of thought (even if that thought is accepting your an atheist) automatically buts you at a stalemate.

From my experience, these debates should be avoided at all cost.

Praxius · Feb 20, 2007, 03:04 pm

Psh.... yeah I had a good debate with an idiot such as this..... not an idiot because of what they believe, but how they explain themselves.

The conversation I had was very similar in words and sentances..... I swear they have their own training facility for these sheep..... and that is exactly what they are..... sheep..... Jesus is the sheppard..... we are the sheep, so we should follow like sheep..... er..... Sheep...... sheep sheep...... ok the word lost all meaning to me now.

They are stuck in their way of thinking and they enjoy going on the attack of those who do not believe (The internet makes this easier) and instead of actually having a conversation with you, they'll repeat their crap they read and claim it as their own opinion, when it really answers nothing (see Sheep)

They feel that so long as they spread the word of the lord around, weither anybody believes them or not, they are doing a good thing. One of the key things about Christianity is that Jesus said to not impose the religion onto others, but let them come to you. People like her who claim anybody who thinks otherwise is going to goto hell and need to be preyed for, feel it is their obligation to inform you and I about Jesus and God and talking with certainy, they will convince someone, and impose their beliefs onto others, which contradicts Jesus's teachings, which proves they really know nothing about their religion.

They live in fear..... fear that if they don't believe, they will suffer for all eternity. They see you and other athiests as challenges sent by the devil to thwart their confidence in their God. They feel it is a challenge to their faith, if someone asks them a ligitamate question that can not be answered.

By even fathoming the concept that what you say might be true, they feel they lost that 1% of unquestioned faith in God and they have sinned.....

so in other words... trying to get into a decent debate with someone like this, is just going to put you in circles and waste your time.

Fonceai · Feb 20, 2007, 03:22 pm

I think you approached it correct, ItsDarts.

Quote:

Quote by: ItsDarts

I don't say god doesn't exist, I say I lack belief in god(s)

Good way to put it.

I find it sad when any person tries to impose upon another person the idea that if they grew up and thought for themselves, they would have the "correct" conclusion.

I teach that if you can think for yourself none of your conclusions are wrong.

ItsDarts · Feb 21, 2007, 05:14 am

Some good advice from all of you so far. Phoenix, you make a good point in saying that discusions other than direct debate may at least help me get into her head a bit more. I will ask how she came about her beliefs. She's 29 years old, so she's no spring chicken, but she is 17 years my junior. I may also ask where she lives to see if her area is heavily fortified with christians or not (I know she lives in Michigan, same as me). The parroting and direct avoidance of my questions was certainly not getting us anywhere and certainly annoying.

I never really thought I could "convert" her, especially after the way she came out of the box so strong in her conviction. At best I was looking to see what she knew, hence the question of her historical knowledge of the bible. She claims that she doesn't go to bible study, but I don't believe her. I've had personal experience with study teachers that almost word for word sound just like her. Come to think of it, she may be a teacher.

I don't know if challenging Christ's existence is the way to go this early in our conversation, I think it would only make her run. You may be right Z, she certainly doesn't seem like she's ready to be "unplugged". Planting some seeds might be a way to at least get her to think and loosen the connection to the plug.

I'll try and pick it up again today.

To be continued, maybe.

Praxius · Feb 21, 2007, 11:42 am

Get her stoned and open her mind, lol

Athena · Feb 21, 2007, 12:09 pm

Quote:

Quote by: phoenix_fire

Again, I find it ironic that you would use that example, Z.

Darts, I don't think you're ever going to find common ground with her, and that's the problem. Furthermore, you are both (yes both) simply repeating a memorized script for these situations and neither of you have yet to talk to the other. If you want to have a gainful conversation with her, you will have to stop seeing each other as potential converts and start talking as people. A lot of this is terminology driven. So long as one of you uses the jargon and/or phraseology of Christian or atheist apologetics, the other probably will and that is where the conversation will remain. If you want her to actually speak from outside what she thinks she's supposed to believe and say, find ways to couch your arguments in regular words. I would also suggest that you ask more questions instead of making statements. Get her to have to think through her responses more. For example, instead of saying:

try asking her how she came about her beliefs. Be interested in what she has to say, and don't assume that you're going to be the one to change her mind.

wow, I am very impressed with your wisdom. You did an excellent job of articulating the knee responses that occur in these debates.

From the beginning I was thinking the word "concept" works better than the word "imaginary".

My efforts to have discussions on where these religious concepts come from aren't going so well. Any suggestions on how to improve my threads?

ItsDarts · Feb 21, 2007, 12:28 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Athena

wow, I am very impressed with your wisdom. You did an excellent job of articulating the knee responses that occur in these debates.

From the beginning I was thinking the word "concept" works better than the word "imaginary".

My efforts to have discussions on where these religious concepts come from aren't going so well. Any suggestions on how to improve my threads?

Please respond to her in Private messages, I don't want to derail this thread. Thanks :)

ItsDarts · Feb 21, 2007, 01:28 pm

<sigh> Looks like this will be the last update....

ItsDarts [12:57 P.M.]: Hi, Remember me? :)
Nessa [12:58 P.M.]: Yes u Jesus Denyier..
ItsDarts [12:58 P.M.]: I don't deny, I lack belief, there is a difference
Nessa [12:59 P.M.]: no same differance in the eyes of god
ItsDarts [12:59 P.M.]: Think of it this way, do you deny unicorns or do you lack belief in them?

ItsDarts [1:00 P.M.]: You see no evidence for unicorns, so you lack belief in them
Nessa [1:00 P.M.]: unicorns are evil
ItsDarts [1:01 P.M.]: So you think unicorns exist or have existed?
Nessa [1:01 P.M.]: i dont belive they dont
ItsDarts [1:02 P.M.]: correct, which I assume you to mean, you lack belief in their existence... would this be correct?

[ Side note, I may have been confused by this statement, "I don't believe they dont"... it was unclear and i may have jumped the gun in my response. no matter though as you will see.]

Nessa [1:03 P.M.]: no

Nessa [1:03 P.M.]: ur a moron
ItsDarts [1:04 P.M.]: I'm only trying to have a conversation with you. May I ask how you came to your beliefs?
Nessa [1:04 P.M.]: weather or not u belive in something makes it no more ture or fauls
ItsDarts [1:05 P.M.]: that's not entirely true, I believe the sun will rise in the morning, based on evidence that it has done so every morning for millions of years, however, someday it may not if the earth is destroyed by an asteroid.
ItsDarts [1:06 P.M.]: Are you willing to at least tell me how you came to your beliefs?
Nessa [1:07 P.M.]: im not willing to taklt o u anymore..
ItsDarts [1:07 P.M.]: OK, but please just remember, Jesus wouldn't approve of you calling me a moron, assuming he exists, I believe you owe him and me an apology.
Nessa [1:10 P.M.]: ur correct.. I do owe u and apology.. please forgive me.. however I belive u owe Jesus an aplogy for denying the fact that he died on the cross for u and became ur ultimate sacrifice so that u could go to heven... and get ultimate forgivness for ur sins...
ItsDarts [1:14 P.M.]: I might if I had ANY evidence of his existence, but when you examine what evidence there is, it is not in the least bit convincing to me.

ItsDarts [1:15 P.M.]: And I forgive you for calling me a moron :)
ItsDarts [1:15 P.M.]: I know you exist :)
ItsDarts [1:17 P.M.]: is this the end of our discussion?
ItsDarts [1:17 P.M.]: should I not talk to you about this anymore?

No reply after 10 mins, so I took this as her last words. Unless she contacts me, I won't contact her.

Notice, she wouldn't tell me how she came to her beliefs. Called me a moron, and only apologized after I pulled the guilt trip on her then again, parroted the same (and seemingly) only garbage she knows how to say. Is this BLIND faith or what???

phoenix_fire · Feb 21, 2007, 03:06 pm

Is there a possibility that she is lying about her age? Because she sounds like a 12 year old to me. Certainly writes like one. I'm sorry, but I think this argument may be pretty hopeless. I gave you advice knowing that you were challenging her faith because I thought that she seemed to be someone that needed to truly examine what she believed and to make her own decisions about it. I think that people like her make the rest of Christianity look bad because they don't really understand what they're talking about. But it doesn't appear as if there is anything either of us could do. Frankly, and I don't mean this in a mean-spirited way...I'm just observing based on her responses, but I don't know that she actually has the intelligence to look into her faith. In this case, you are going way beyond her depth. I'm sorry I could not be more help, but it does not seem as if she will talk to you again anyway. Good luck.

Praxius · Feb 21, 2007, 03:41 pm

I told you..... but hey.... everybody has to walk their own path.

You can't have an educated conversation with someone like that about religion. They are so invoked with fear that any form of doubt on their part will send them to hell. She won't talk to you anymore because you're the devil trying to feed her doubt..... a challenge to her faith.

Sometimes faith outweighs logic.

She's the type of religous person who feels power when talking to a fellow christian on the same level, or teaching their belief to others who will listen, but the moment they have any kind of resistance or a free thinker come at them with questions, they close up and go on the defensive.

Feb 20, 2007, 12:10 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
ItsDarts 13.7B Light Years+ Location: 42 N, 83 W Posts: 942	How do you debate a Pentacostal Below is a dialog I had with a Pentacostal, unfortunately I had to cut it short but it was probably for the best, as you will see. Here is a little primer on how it got started in the first place.... I was in a chat room on AOL (yeah I know, hush ) She noticed my profile and blurted out in the room, "So Darts, you're an atheist? I replied politely with a Yes. I don't hide my atheism. She proceded to do an "LOL" in the room and I asked why she thought that funny. Her response was, "I'll spare the room the drama of answering that." I said fair enough since religious debates never go over very well in this chat room. I proceded to IM her and asked the same question. What's so funny? I also wanted to clarify her faith so I had something, anything to work with. Afterall, we should always know what god(s) we're discussing. The real screen names have been changed to protect the innocent.... ItsDarts [8:57 A.M.]: Are you an Evangelical Christian? ItsDarts [8:57 A.M.]: Born Again? Nessa [8:57 A.M.]: Im penticostal ItsDarts [8:59 A.M.]: So you believe that god still reveals himself to man Nessa [8:59 A.M.]: absolutley... ItsDarts [8:59 A.M.]: I use to be christian (thats how I was raised and so were my parents and so on and so on) ItsDarts [9:00 A.M.]: So I do know about christianity Nessa [9:00 A.M.]: so u turned ur back on God eh? ItsDarts [9:00 A.M.]: however, what makes your belief any more correct than say a Lutheran or catholic ItsDarts [9:00 A.M.]: I did no such thing. ItsDarts [9:00 A.M.]: Can't turn your back on something that isn't there ItsDarts [9:01 A.M.]: I lack belief in god(s) ItsDarts [9:01 A.M.]: nothing more ItsDarts [9:01 A.M.]: I make no positive claims ItsDarts [9:01 A.M.]: I don't say god doesn't exist, I say I lack belief in god(s) Nessa [9:02 A.M.]: u deny that Jesus is the Son of God and the u need to have a Peronal Relationship with him.. and that he sacrificed his life so u could live life and life more abondantly.... and so that u could have everlasting life... u deny that.. So yes Im sorry but to God in his eyes U Deny Him becaus u Deny his Son ItsDarts [9:02 A.M.]: I have not seen evidence to support the god concept. ItsDarts [9:03 A.M.]: not one christian has ever been able to give evidence of support Nessa [9:03 A.M.]: Open ur EYES ItsDarts [9:03 A.M.]: trust me, I have. Nessa [9:04 A.M.]: Darts Ive been were u are.. I walked away from God.. but u know Jesus is married to the backslider.. so Belive me there is hope for u yet :) ItsDarts [9:04 A.M.]: you must try to understand that just because you feel you have an imaginary friend and you have a "personal relationship" with an imaginary friend, doesn't mean everyone will feel what you feel ItsDarts [9:05 A.M.]: You are doing nothing but paroting what your bible study teacher has told you Nessa [9:05 A.M.]: there is nothing imaginary about JESUS CHRIST/GOD/THE HOLY SPIRIT ItsDarts [9:05 A.M.]: you offer not support for your claims and I must logically reject any claims until proven with empirical evidence Nessa [9:05 A.M.]: Im sorry my dear I dont belive in Organized Religion so I dont go to Bible Study..lol ItsDarts [9:06 A.M.]: OK, let me ask you this, how much of the history of the bible do you know? Nessa [9:06 A.M.]: ok if u need evidence.. Ask God to Revile himself to u Nessa [9:06 A.M.]: And Belive me He will ItsDarts [9:07 A.M.]: I've asked your god and all other gods, no one has sppoken up ItsDarts [9:07 A.M.]: can you answer my question? How much of the history of the bible do you know? Nessa [9:07 A.M.]: maybe they have u haev rejected what u have heard becasue u didnt like what u heard ItsDarts [9:08 A.M.]: please, I have not "heard" anything. Invisable beings can not logically talk Nessa [9:08 A.M.]: ill pray for u Darts.. because u live in a world bound by chains only God himself can set u free from ItsDarts [9:09 A.M.]: Do you hear yourself? I've asked you questions and all you can come back with is offers for prayers ItsDarts [9:10 A.M.]: You can pray all you like, but please find something better to do with your time. Many christians have prayed for me over the years, if he exists, he isn't listening ItsDarts [9:11 A.M.]: I offer you logical reasons why he can't exist and you ignore me, this is typical in fundimentalists, evangelicals and penticostals. You offer no rational thought ItsDarts [9:12 A.M.]: When you can come back to me with some history of the bible, maybe we can talk agian. For now I do have a meeting to attend and I wish you a good day. If I have more discussions with her, I'll post them here. Any advice for future discussions would be appreciated. God is superfluous, nuff said Life Made Easy, without a god Big Bang Misconceptions String Theory for the Layman

Feb 21, 2007, 05:14 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
ItsDarts 13.7B Light Years+ Location: 42 N, 83 W Posts: 942	Some good advice from all of you so far. Phoenix, you make a good point in saying that discusions other than direct debate may at least help me get into her head a bit more. I will ask how she came about her beliefs. She's 29 years old, so she's no spring chicken, but she is 17 years my junior. I may also ask where she lives to see if her area is heavily fortified with christians or not (I know she lives in Michigan, same as me). The parroting and direct avoidance of my questions was certainly not getting us anywhere and certainly annoying. I never really thought I could "convert" her, especially after the way she came out of the box so strong in her conviction. At best I was looking to see what she knew, hence the question of her historical knowledge of the bible. She claims that she doesn't go to bible study, but I don't believe her. I've had personal experience with study teachers that almost word for word sound just like her. Come to think of it, she may be a teacher. I don't know if challenging Christ's existence is the way to go this early in our conversation, I think it would only make her run. You may be right Z, she certainly doesn't seem like she's ready to be "unplugged". Planting some seeds might be a way to at least get her to think and loosen the connection to the plug. I'll try and pick it up again today. To be continued, maybe. God is superfluous, nuff said Life Made Easy, without a god Big Bang Misconceptions String Theory for the Layman

Feb 21, 2007, 01:28 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
ItsDarts 13.7B Light Years+ Location: 42 N, 83 W Posts: 942	<sigh> Looks like this will be the last update.... ItsDarts [12:57 P.M.]: Hi, Remember me? :) Nessa [12:58 P.M.]: Yes u Jesus Denyier.. ItsDarts [12:58 P.M.]: I don't deny, I lack belief, there is a difference Nessa [12:59 P.M.]: no same differance in the eyes of god ItsDarts [12:59 P.M.]: Think of it this way, do you deny unicorns or do you lack belief in them? ItsDarts [1:00 P.M.]: You see no evidence for unicorns, so you lack belief in them Nessa [1:00 P.M.]: unicorns are evil ItsDarts [1:01 P.M.]: So you think unicorns exist or have existed? Nessa [1:01 P.M.]: i dont belive they dont ItsDarts [1:02 P.M.]: correct, which I assume you to mean, you lack belief in their existence... would this be correct? [ Side note, I may have been confused by this statement, "I don't believe they dont"... it was unclear and i may have jumped the gun in my response. no matter though as you will see.] Nessa [1:03 P.M.]: no Nessa [1:03 P.M.]: ur a moron ItsDarts [1:04 P.M.]: I'm only trying to have a conversation with you. May I ask how you came to your beliefs? Nessa [1:04 P.M.]: weather or not u belive in something makes it no more ture or fauls ItsDarts [1:05 P.M.]: that's not entirely true, I believe the sun will rise in the morning, based on evidence that it has done so every morning for millions of years, however, someday it may not if the earth is destroyed by an asteroid. ItsDarts [1:06 P.M.]: Are you willing to at least tell me how you came to your beliefs? Nessa [1:07 P.M.]: im not willing to taklt o u anymore.. ItsDarts [1:07 P.M.]: OK, but please just remember, Jesus wouldn't approve of you calling me a moron, assuming he exists, I believe you owe him and me an apology. Nessa [1:10 P.M.]: ur correct.. I do owe u and apology.. please forgive me.. however I belive u owe Jesus an aplogy for denying the fact that he died on the cross for u and became ur ultimate sacrifice so that u could go to heven... and get ultimate forgivness for ur sins... ItsDarts [1:14 P.M.]: I might if I had ANY evidence of his existence, but when you examine what evidence there is, it is not in the least bit convincing to me. ItsDarts [1:15 P.M.]: And I forgive you for calling me a moron :) ItsDarts [1:15 P.M.]: I know you exist :) ItsDarts [1:17 P.M.]: is this the end of our discussion? ItsDarts [1:17 P.M.]: should I not talk to you about this anymore? No reply after 10 mins, so I took this as her last words. Unless she contacts me, I won't contact her. Notice, she wouldn't tell me how she came to her beliefs. Called me a moron, and only apologized after I pulled the guilt trip on her then again, parroted the same (and seemingly) only garbage she knows how to say. Is this BLIND faith or what??? God is superfluous, nuff said Life Made Easy, without a god Big Bang Misconceptions String Theory for the Layman

Feb 21, 2007, 03:06 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
phoenix_fire Paladin Location: Narnia Posts: 4,277	Is there a possibility that she is lying about her age? Because she sounds like a 12 year old to me. Certainly writes like one. I'm sorry, but I think this argument may be pretty hopeless. I gave you advice knowing that you were challenging her faith because I thought that she seemed to be someone that needed to truly examine what she believed and to make her own decisions about it. I think that people like her make the rest of Christianity look bad because they don't really understand what they're talking about. But it doesn't appear as if there is anything either of us could do. Frankly, and I don't mean this in a mean-spirited way...I'm just observing based on her responses, but I don't know that she actually has the intelligence to look into her faith. In this case, you are going way beyond her depth. I'm sorry I could not be more help, but it does not seem as if she will talk to you again anyway. Good luck. Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm; for love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave. It burns like blazing fire, like a mighty flame. -- Song 8:6

Feb 20, 2007, 02:26 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
Duke1985 The Duke Location: Michigan Posts: 308	I've tried arguing with Christians it never works. 1. You can't argue repetition, which I've seen them employ as a tactic many times. If you say, "I don't believe in Jesus" and I say, "He's real" and no matter what you say after that, I just keep saying, "He's real" maybe sometimes they'll repackage it so it doesn't sound like repetition, but they just spew the same message over and over until you cave or walk away. 2. Phoenix is right, acting like each other will magically drop their faith and convert won't get you anywhere. Going into the discussion with the mind set that you can convert them to whatever school of thought (even if that thought is accepting your an atheist) automatically buts you at a stalemate. From my experience, these debates should be avoided at all cost.

Feb 20, 2007, 03:04 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
Praxius Mass'Debator Posts: 4,724	Psh.... yeah I had a good debate with an idiot such as this..... not an idiot because of what they believe, but how they explain themselves. The conversation I had was very similar in words and sentances..... I swear they have their own training facility for these sheep..... and that is exactly what they are..... sheep..... Jesus is the sheppard..... we are the sheep, so we should follow like sheep..... er..... Sheep...... sheep sheep...... ok the word lost all meaning to me now. They are stuck in their way of thinking and they enjoy going on the attack of those who do not believe (The internet makes this easier) and instead of actually having a conversation with you, they'll repeat their crap they read and claim it as their own opinion, when it really answers nothing (see Sheep) They feel that so long as they spread the word of the lord around, weither anybody believes them or not, they are doing a good thing. One of the key things about Christianity is that Jesus said to not impose the religion onto others, but let them come to you. People like her who claim anybody who thinks otherwise is going to goto hell and need to be preyed for, feel it is their obligation to inform you and I about Jesus and God and talking with certainy, they will convince someone, and impose their beliefs onto others, which contradicts Jesus's teachings, which proves they really know nothing about their religion. They live in fear..... fear that if they don't believe, they will suffer for all eternity. They see you and other athiests as challenges sent by the devil to thwart their confidence in their God. They feel it is a challenge to their faith, if someone asks them a ligitamate question that can not be answered. By even fathoming the concept that what you say might be true, they feel they lost that 1% of unquestioned faith in God and they have sinned..... so in other words... trying to get into a decent debate with someone like this, is just going to put you in circles and waste your time.

Feb 21, 2007, 11:42 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
Praxius Mass'Debator Posts: 4,724	Get her stoned and open her mind, lol

Feb 21, 2007, 03:41 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
Praxius Mass'Debator Posts: 4,724	I told you..... but hey.... everybody has to walk their own path. You can't have an educated conversation with someone like that about religion. They are so invoked with fear that any form of doubt on their part will send them to hell. She won't talk to you anymore because you're the devil trying to feed her doubt..... a challenge to her faith. Sometimes faith outweighs logic. She's the type of religous person who feels power when talking to a fellow christian on the same level, or teaching their belief to others who will listen, but the moment they have any kind of resistance or a free thinker come at them with questions, they close up and go on the defensive.