Blood of the Lamb

[Athena]

To understand the consciousness when religion was developed, I will thrown in pieces of information found in my books or by googling and hope others will do the same. I plan to cover Sumer and Akhenaten and Egypt in general.
We need information for Babylonian and Persian.

To start, this was found on Sumerian clay tablet:

The lamb is the substitute for humanity; he hath given up a lamb for his life.

The book containing this quote says evidently Sumerians did commit human sacrifices but evolved away from doing so. It is rather pointless for the bible to tell a story about God wanting a father to sacrificing his son and then stopping the father just before he kills his own son, and telling him substitute a ram for his son, unless there was a reason for God to tell people to stop sacrificing humans. To stop sacrificing their first born sons, as they were ordered to sacrifice their first born animals.

[Boetie]

The first sacrifical story I heard from my religious upbringing was the Cain and Able story. God favored one over the other which led to jealousy and then finally the tale of Cain murdering his own brother. Could this have been Cain's way of saying to God, "How's that for a sacrifice? I gave you my own brother. Are you happy now?"

Although I must admit my church was never happy about my theological interpretations as you can probably tell by the Cain and Able account I just told. But then again Kierkegaard's life was completely absorbed with the Issac incident.

In a certain sense, young Soren was sacrificed on the altar of his father's religiosity, or he almost was, just as young Issac of the Biblical story was almost sacrificed on his father's altar. For some strange reason I can see where Kierkegaard is coming from based on having similar experiences.

[Technosoul]

The quote on the clay tablet is a one-liner. Was it out of context of more things written on the same tablet. As it would be more interesting to know the whole content of the tablet so that we can determine the full meaning of that one-liner, in that socieity.

Perhaps some aliens were consuming humans for food and so the humans gave up their lambs to save their own life. The one-liner seems to make no sense otherwise that I can figure out.

The one liner did not mention sacrifice or burnt offerings however. So it might have been a phylosophy. Now lambs grow up to become sheep. Sheep are herded around by a master. And so we give up being a child to conform like sheep for our life. Something along that order?

Of course it might not have been aliens, but they might have saved their own life by giving up lambs to the wolves or other kinds of wild animals.

The saying might have been totally unrelated to the later concepts proposed by Moses and others.

I have looked over most of the translations from Sumer and never saw any comments about sacraficing people to gods. The gods of Sumer were interested in gold, silver, and perhaps oil. And very interested in humans following instuctions and the knowledge provied to them. Which instructions were about building cities, governments, farming, smelting gold, ship building and transport, and having an organized system where they would work for the gods like sheep being herded about. In other words setting a kingdom of humans who would be intelligent enough to carry out the deeds as so instructed to them.

But agian, without reading the contents of the whole tablet (both sides) to know what that one line would mean relative to the rest of the information, we cannot assume to know.

What book and who wrote it?

[rez]

Persian Religion

Quote by: Religion in ancient Peria In the beginning, the god ZURVAN AKARANA (which means "infinite time") bemoaned the fact that he had no son. He offered a sacrifice to the Creator who gave him twins: the first was AHURA-MAZDA, who became the god of truth and light, the second was named AHRIMAN, which can be translated as "destructive thought". As in Vedic religion, the god of fire ATAR, (the son of Ohrmazd), was very important. He sent the sacrifices to the gods, which enabled them to combat the forces of evil and darkness. The god Rapithwin was considered to be like the warmth of the sun which is reborn each spring.

[Athena]

I totally agree with you Technosoul. I wish I could personally read the actually tablets. However, by googling Sumerian human sacrifice, I found this interesting site:

Sacrifices in the Sumerian Culture The Sumerians were one of the first cultures to arise in Mesopotamia, which is what is now known as the Middle East. More specifically, the region between where the mouths of the Tigris and Euphrates on the Persian Gulf. Leonard Woolley excavated a cemetery at Ur; dated 3500 BCE. He found tombs of local kings that were not recorded in the Sumerian king-lists. King-lists are written lists of kings who reigned for long periods of time. Woolley started in 1927 to dig in the Royal Cemetery at Ur and startled the world by bringing to light funeral practices that were strange, and which the texts of Sumer had not talked about. Because no one has mentioned these rites in Sumerian texts, some scholars would not believe that they were burials of real kings. These scholars insisted that the burials were for temporary festival monarchs; these rites are common to the myths of many lands, and reflect the worship of fertility gods who die each winter an are reborn in the spring. However, the discoveries of several tombs of the Third Dynasty of Ur, where many bodies of attendants were found close to their master, have shown that these graves were of actual rulers or "gods".

Evidently some of the kings were burdied with their servants and wives. I have heard of this practice before in other places I think? However, I don't think this practice explains sacrificing a lamb instead of a human. I was thinking the substitute might be a legal one. Say if someone killed another, the law might be satisfied with a lamb instead of taking life of the person who killed another.

Or the hand, the sacrifice could be tied to the winter death and new life in spring ritual. In fact the unnamed kings, could be temporary festival monarchs? Conditions at the time could leave people more or less motivated to sacrifice. It appears the bodies that were found, died like the willing victims of modern cults by willingly drinking poison with the expectation of a heaven reward. Here substituting a lamb would delay the heavenly reward, but really is, our Easter Lamb that removed from the Sumerians? I don't think so. I think may be details are a little different, but the general idea is the same.

[Athena]

Quote by: rez Persian Religion

Very interesting Rez. Your post is telling us thoughts of good and evil predate the religions we credit with civilizing us, and giving us morals. I think our lack of information about these early civilizations, distorts our understanding of all things.

How interesting to think sacrifices empower deities to fight evil, like throwing fuel into fire, generates more heat.

He sent the sacrifices to the gods, which enabled them to combat the forces of evil and darkness.

Can we know more about these early thoughts of forces of evil and darkness?
Obviously they did not being with modern religions.

[Athena]

Jesus as a sin offering.

Biblical significance of the title is rendered in the context of earlier lamb symbolism. The blood of the paschal lamb of the Old Testament protects and saves the Israelites in Exodus 12. This link is made explicit in 1 Corinthians 5:7. For Paul, Christians are saved by Christ as their true paschal lamb. The Old Testament also testifies to the earlier practice of sin offerings as a possible means of atonement. Lambs could be used in these offerings (e.g. Leviticus 4:32-34 and 5:6), and this link is strongly suggested by John 1:29 and 1 Peter 1:19. Like the sin of a person could be forgiven through the offering and the pouring out of the blood of an "unblemished" lamb (cf. Lev 4:32), so Christians would be freed from sin by the blood of Jesus as the unblemished Lamb of God. See Sin for further discussion about the concept of sin and the means of atonement in Judaism. Lastly, Christians believe that the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus. An extreme minority position emerged in the Jewish community in the 20th Century following the Holocaust. Some identify the servant as Israel personified arguing that the identity of the servant has already been established by Isaiah in previously stated passages (Isaiah 41 :8-9; 44:1-2, 21; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3). According to a Christian translation of the Isaiah 53, the suffering servant remains silent "like a lamb led to the slaughter" (53:7) and "gives his life as an offering for sin" (53:10). Christians add that this link is explicit in Acts 8:32 and strengthens the idea of Jesus as a sin offering.

Question, why is this sin offering necessary in the first place?

Second, how is beleiving sin offerings work different from believing in magic?

[Kuldeep]

Sacrifice, if at all has any value should be your ownself. Why it is not said one should give his own sacrifice??? This is so because you are selfish and love your ownself maximum.

Sacrificing your son, lamb or anything else, I can name as cruelity, ignorance and illogical faith etc nothing else. How funny, son became dear so name of God was brought in to get it changed to Lamb. I ask those who believe in it, why not Lion?????? Simple!!! It was not easy to put sacrifice of wild lion or wolf.:(

All that is written about sacrifice, I think is from human prejudiced mind used to please his own self. Lamb is sacrificed in the name of God and then eaten away. What a selfish reason!!!!?????:)

[Dadoo]

I have read that sacrifice of Lambs was a glorified BBQ.
The people enjoy the tasty treat after it is made a "burnt offering." What greater celebration of life than a tasty lamb-chop?

To give this feast to the people of a tribe, without monetary restitution is a sacrifice for the herdsman.

The sacrifice of humans as was performed earlier; a much greater loss for all.
At the time, the people believed that one 'foole' could take with him the troubles and difficulties of his people. Most often, thezse were not "innocent" people, nor randomly chosen. They were criminals, oddballs, scew-ups and handicapped individuals who could do more in death for the masses, than in life.
Humanity has always had a reasonable and logical reasoning behind even the most morbid rituals, according to times and places.

Athena- There is a supreme difference between magic and weighing sins-
CONTROL. As we cannot legally trade our goods without attaching monetary equivilants, we cannot escape "original sin".
Whatever is considered sin, you may be sure is an activity humans espoused at some point in time, and enjoyed.
In the effort to control expanding populations, more and more radical measures have been employed.
Only the mysterious control tactics are employable, as the overt efforts are routed out and extinguished by the people, who BTW are always in control...
until the control is offered up as sacrifice in deference to positions and concepts that cannot be avoided by the populace without help from governmental or magical entities.
An action as simple as a ritualized, proscribed sacrifice can effect control over the people, even in the absence of government and/or religious power authorities, guns, gallows etc.
The rest is.. history.
Have we really come a long way???

Today we sacrifice our sons and daughters on battlefields in every corner of this earth.
Praytell, what is this difference?

(^8 8^(
One up, one down-- bring it on!
Dadoo

[arielmessenger]

as the sin atonement vehicle. This is the standard Mystery Religion concept that was so popular in Greco-Roman empire days and Christianity and by Paul's genius of blending the pagan sin-atonement concept with the Jewish Messiah expectations Christianity took off like hotcakes when Christians made it to Rome. You got Jewish piety and pagan god-man in One. Such a deal!

But only those who do not know the connection between blood and fertilizer can accept Paul's paganization of Jesus' Jewish religion.

[Athena]

How pleasant words of reason.

In response to Dadoo, My concept of sin is in line with Kuldeeps understanding. It is unfortunate the US has lost consciousness of Eastern thought which also was part of the consciousness of early civilizations.
Christian domination has left us with a very restricted consciousness, unless we make a deliberate effort to learn for ourselves.

This is the way Cicero worded the result of cause and effect or karma:

"Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature, and by reason of this very fact he will suffer the worst penalties, even if he escapes what is commonly considered punishment."

I like that you bring out the Hebrews were nomadic herders. I think this way of living is very important to sacrificing animals. This consciousness is important to the story of Cain and Able, telling us God perfers people who sacrifice animals to those who gives gifts of their vegetable harvest. Like why would a God perfer bloody sacrifices? This is the shift from agregarian societies to more agressive male/nomad/herder rule.

When we think we can influence a God with sacrifices this is believing in magic. The earliest people gave gifts from their harvest and little statues.
Hebrews and others sacfiriced humans and animals. Catholics burning candles and giving money to the church to rescue loved ones from purgatory, caused Martin Luther to turn from the church.

Hum, it is also a shift from earth gods, to a sky God, a shift from throwing gifts into a hole and down to earth mother, to burning them so the smoke can carry the offering to a sky God.