Question for Christians

[Duke1985]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Not true, traditionally they went to limbo, but that's been recently revised. The church says something like "we leave them to the mercyu of God", but I'm pretty sure the understanding is that they'll be saved.

What happened to limbo? Why did it get kicked out? I think St. Christopher got kicked out too, what gives?

[Gods_Mercenary]

I'm pretty sure st. christopher never actually existed, and limbo was invented by some random missionaries, never really put before church council review, even though it was a popular belief, probably for its simplicity.

[Duke1985]

Well the story of St. Christopher made Mary and Joseph look like bad parents, as I remember he helped carry baby Jesus through a river. Why was baby Jesus crossing a river?
Either way thanks for clearing that up.

[Jack]

Why was baby Jesus crossing a river?

To get to the other side.

[loser]

Let's clear up some fallacies and misconceptions:

1) Hell is the grave. The dead know nothing and you can't communicate with them. No one is in heaven EXCEPT Jesus. If you pray to Mary, you might as well pray to dirt. Death is a long sleep. A resurrection of ALL people will take place in the future in multiple resurrections.

2) There is no Trinity (triune God). The Holy Spirit is God's (the Father's) Spirit, it is NOT a person. Jesus is a MAN, the SON of GOD. Had Jesus NOT been flesh, He could not have died on the cross, He could not have been tempted by sin, and He could not have prayed to God.

3) Jesus never instructed His followers to worship Him. He directed all praise and worship and obedience to EVERYONE'S Father in heaven, as He said, "OUR Father in heaven, hallowed be His name...".

4) There is NO eternal torment of sinners. There are only TWO choices: ETERNAL LIFE or DEATH. If sinners were eternally tormented, they would have eternal life, no matter how miserable. The ONLY beings which can be eternally tormented are those who already have eternal life.

5) People who have not known Jesus are not condemned. However, ignorance of the law is no excuse. Those without the law will not be judged by the law but their CONSCIENCE will either ACCUSE them or EXCUSE them. Many have believed on Jesus because they SAW Him. Others have believed on Him strictly by FAITH. In the end, before all is said and done, EVERYONE will SEE Jesus and KNOW Him. Only then will there be judgment.

I'm sure I left a lot of unanswered questions and I know that doubters abound. That's okay...it will all workout.

If you need to know more, just ask. If you need to keep it private, message me.

Many of you (probably most) have been soured on Christianity by wannabe pretend Christians or religious leaders (modern day Pharisees). Very few know the REAL Jesus of scripture and the REAL Bible. It's a testament to God's POWER that He has been able to proclaim His TRUTH even as He has allowed Satan to buffet His harvest.

Dr. Debate, I believe I have answered your question. As a Muslim, you are being deceived just as millions of Christians are being deceived. The Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah because He didn't come to conquer. Mohammed came claiming to be that conquering Messiah. He wasn't.

The body in that tomb is not the body of Jesus the Christ. Though His flesh and blood body did not ascend to heaven, it was changed...converted into some kind of powerful energy or spirit. When He ascended, His body was no more.

[Praxius]

Quote by: loser Let's clear up some fallacies and misconceptions: 1) Hell is the grave. The dead know nothing and you can't communicate with them. No one is in heaven EXCEPT Jesus. If you pray to Mary, you might as well pray to dirt. Death is a long sleep. A resurrection of ALL people will take place in the future in multiple resurrections. ]2) There is no Trinity (triune God). The Holy Spirit is God's (the Father's) Spirit, it is NOT a person. Jesus is a MAN, the SON of GOD. Had Jesus NOT been flesh, He could not have died on the cross, He could not have been tempted by sin, and He could not have prayed to God. 3) Jesus never instructed His followers to worship Him. He directed all praise and worship and obedience to EVERYONE'S Father in heaven, as He said, "OUR Father in heaven, hallowed be His name...". 4) There is NO eternal torment of sinners. There are only TWO choices: ETERNAL LIFE or DEATH. If sinners were eternally tormented, they would have eternal life, no matter how miserable. The ONLY beings which can be eternally tormented are those who already have eternal life. 5) People who have not known Jesus are not condemned. However, ignorance of the law is no excuse. Those without the law will not be judged by the law but their CONSCIENCE will either ACCUSE them or EXCUSE them. Many have believed on Jesus because they SAW Him. Others have believed on Him strictly by FAITH. In the end, before all is said and done, EVERYONE will SEE Jesus and KNOW Him. Only then will there be judgment. I'm sure I left a lot of unanswered questions and I know that doubters abound. That's okay...it will all workout. If you need to know more, just ask. If you need to keep it private, message me. Many of you (probably most) have been soured on Christianity by wannabe pretend Christians or religious leaders (modern day Pharisees). Very few know the REAL Jesus of scripture and the REAL Bible. It's a testament to God's POWER that He has been able to proclaim His TRUTH even as He has allowed Satan to buffet His harvest. Dr. Debate, I believe I have answered your question. As a Muslim, you are being deceived just as millions of Christians are being deceived. The Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah because He didn't come to conquer. Mohammed came claiming to be that conquering Messiah. He wasn't. The body in that tomb is not the body of Jesus the Christ. Though His flesh and blood body did not ascend to heaven, it was changed...converted into some kind of powerful energy or spirit. When He ascended, His body was no more.

And what makes your opinion on the whole subject to be fact? Because you said so? Or because you found another "True" Bible...... and how is that one more true then others?

Only Jesus is in Heaven? You just screwed up right there. If you said Jesus was the son of God, but only Jesus is in Heaven, then where did God go in your equation? If Jesus is God, and was a Human, and ascended into Heaven as a Spirit, but there is no Trinity?

Have another puff from the bong there buddy.

You can explain yourself with assertion and claim that what you believe is 100% fact, but that doesn't make it fact..... that only makes it your faith.

[loser]

Only Jesus is in Heaven? You just screwed up right there. If you said Jesus was the son of God, but only Jesus is in Heaven, then where did God go in your equation? If Jesus is God, and was a Human, and ascended into Heaven as a Spirit, but there is no Trinity?

Your reply reveals the very reason why the Bible is so little understood...lack of comprehension. Not able to read between the lines? Does the use of metaphors, similes, or allegories (or other figures of speech) leave you scratching your head confusedly? Are you really that slow or are you just being sarcastically contentious?

If I was a guessing man, I'd say that it was you who has been bonged silly.

The reference to Jesus being the only one in heaven applies to humans being resurrected. In clearer language, no other HUMAN has died and gone to heaven: not Mary, not Abraham, not Moses, not David, not even Elijah or Enoch. They are ALL still lying in the dust sleeping the long sleep of death.

It should have been obvious that I was NOT excluding God (the Father) and all of His spiritual beings from their eternal habitat. I'm surprised that you didn't get that. Of course, I forgot what dope can do to one's cognitive skills. I'll try not to go so fast in the future.

Concerning the trinity: Here's the best example that I can use. Please be aware that this is only an ALLEGORY. I am not talking literal here.

God (the ONE and ONLY): the SOURCE or ENERGIZER BATTERY

Holy Spirit: the ELECTRIC CURRENT

Jesus: the ENERGIZER LAMB

From this ANALOGY (though imperfect it may be), one can readily see that ALL power that Jesus had came from the Father by way of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was a PERSON, God is a SPIRIT (BEING), and the Holy Spirit is the POWER (OF or FROM GOD). This is not the (lack of) wisdom that oozed from the Council of Nicaea.

I'm giving you FACTS. What you do with them is your business.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Dr. Debate Do you guys believe that non-Christians will go to hell? If not, where will they go? Thanks.

Yes, we do. The next logical question is why we don't see us Christians out there like we do the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Mormons. Several atheists have asked that question in the past, so I bet that some today are wondering that as well. As big as our churches are today, if we all truly believed that unsaved people are going to hell, then we should ALL be out there. Thing is, visitations at churches comprise only around 5-10% of the churches. I attend Highland Park Baptist Church. The membership tally is over a thousand people. If every person truly believed that unsaved people are going to hell, then they could turn Chattanooga upside down for Christ in a very short time. Just look at what God did with 12 people. Imagine what he could do with 100, or even 50. Imagine what could happen if every Christian here on Volconvo got out there and started to follow the Great Commission and taking the word to every person they pass by. This world would be turned upside down if we did that. I don't know if this is going to land on hearing ears, but it is worth a try.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Except that most americans are already christians and are gonna blow you off like my catholic dad used to do to jehovah's witnesses. Bellows of "Go home you freaks!" come to mind. Most people are pretty set in what they're comfortable with. Perhaps if these people trying to spread the word didn't treat catholics and others like they weren't already christians, this wouldn't happen.

[Jillamanda]

I'm an atheist - how is a non existent god going to send me to a non existent place?

Quote by: dthm254 The next logical question is why we don't see us Christians out there like we do the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Mormons

.

Hey, I've never had an atheist come to my door trying to convert me either.

What are JWs and Mormons are if they aren't Christians?

[Praxius]

Quote by: loser Your reply reveals the very reason why the Bible is so little understood...lack of comprehension. Not able to read between the lines? Does the use of metaphors, similes, or allegories (or other figures of speech) leave you scratching your head confusedly? Are you really that slow or are you just being sarcastically contentious? If I was a guessing man, I'd say that it was you who has been bonged silly.

Pssh.... please.

If a religion wants someone to follow it, then make the religion at least make some sense.

Read between the lines? Well sure.... why, I could start writing about Baboons that fart on the monkey's faces when they sleep at night, and if they wake up, they'll notice a flake of poop on their nose.......

Now if you read between the lines you would have known that I wasn't talking about baboons or monkeys, I was talking about humans, pulling pranks on other humans, because deep down inside, we have a monkey in all of us, and monkeys and baboons don't normally interact like that.

If you want to argue in a debate about your opinion on something, explain it clearly, or you just sound like a crazy religious fanatic who's waiting for the space ship.

The reference to Jesus being the only one in heaven applies to humans being resurrected. In clearer language, no other HUMAN has died and gone to heaven: not Mary, not Abraham, not Moses, not David, not even Elijah or Enoch. They are ALL still lying in the dust sleeping the long sleep of death.

So if his family and friends can't goto heaven, what chances do the rest of us have? No other human has gone to heaven..... and Jesus is all alone up there in the clouds, playing solitare.

It should have been obvious that I was NOT excluding God (the Father) and all of His spiritual beings from their eternal habitat. I'm surprised that you didn't get that. Of course, I forgot what dope can do to one's cognitive skills. I'll try not to go so fast in the future.

You're memory loss should be checked out:

No one is in heaven EXCEPT Jesus.

Then where is God in your equation? Is he back home playing with his train set? If you don't have a location of where God is, then he doesn't exist. Why does he have his son isolated in the clouds? Was he bad?

There is no Trinity (triune God). The Holy Spirit is God's (the Father's) Spirit, it is NOT a person. Jesus is a MAN, the SON of GOD.

You say there is no Trinity, yet you then admit there is a God, you identify the Holy Spirit as being Gods, and you just said Jesus was the Son of God...... sounds like a Trinity to me.

Concerning the trinity: Here's the best example that I can use. Please be aware that this is only an ALLEGORY. I am not talking literal here. God (the ONE and ONLY): the SOURCE or ENERGIZER BATTERY Holy Spirit: the ELECTRIC CURRENT Jesus: the ENERGIZER LAMB From this ANALOGY (though imperfect it may be), one can readily see that ALL power that Jesus had came from the Father by way of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was a PERSON, God is a SPIRIT (BEING), and the Holy Spirit is the POWER (OF or FROM GOD). This is not the (lack of) wisdom that oozed from the Council of Nicaea. I'm giving you FACTS. What you do with them is your business.

Pssh..... you just defined what the Holy Trinity is.... and yet you claim it doesn't exist. Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are connected, which makes them one, which makes the stupid Trinity...... (I can't believe I'm actually having to explain Christianity to a so-called Christian and I'm no longer a Christian.)

[Gods_Mercenary]

I think loser is from a different part of Christianity, but he still follows christ, so he's still a christian.

[loser]

If every person truly believed that unsaved people are going to hell, then they could turn Chattanooga upside down for Christ in a very short time.

I suspect that if that happened there would be more proselytizing and if that happened then they would be driving people AWAY from God by the droves. What MOST Baptists should be worried about (the ones taught Once Saved, Always Saved) is their OWN salvation. A holier-than-thou atttitude (I'm saved but you're not) is not going to bring anyone to the Lord!

Just look at what God did with 12 people. Imagine what he could do with 100, or even 50. Imagine what could happen if every Christian here on Volconvo got out there and started to follow the Great Commission and taking the word to every person they pass by. This world would be turned upside down if we did that.

Well, I guess if the Christians got out there and began raising the dead, casting out demons, healing the sick and the lame and the maimed and the blind and the deaf, and were able to quiet the storms, walk on water, and change water to wine, they probably could bring a lot of people to God. However, if they can't even imitate the attitude and heart of Jesus Christ, offering themselves up as slave and servant to ALL, I doubt if they will have much success.

[Jillamanda]

Heaven and Hell are merely beliefs held by Christians. They have no proof of either, let alone anyone who has supposedly ended up there.

[agustine]

To Dr. Debate. With respect to your comment

So pretty much this is saying that Christians are the only ones that go to heaven?

By way of further clarification, only God’s elect are saved. God's elect, from the Greek word Eklektos meaning to select, are essentially those that are called and thus chosen by God the Father for salvation, Romans 8:29-30, according to the counsel of His will. Ephesians 1:5, 9, & 11 Essentially, only the elect shall be saved. As the Lord Jesus explained “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:44 Thus, the efficient cause of salvation is God the Father. The material cause, God the Son, accomplished it by His Torah obedient life, death and resurrection. The exclusivity of salvation through Christ alone is well established in the scriptures whereby the Lord Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father except by me." John 14:6

Augustine

[Jack]

A holier-than-thou atttitude (I'm saved but you're not) is not going to bring anyone to the Lord!

Amen!
Seriously, we've witnessed a lot of that attitude here. Superiority and smugness are not attractive no matter what point you're trying to make.

Except that most americans are already christians and are gonna blow you off like my catholic dad used to do to jehovah's witnesses.

But if I don't believe that only my faith/church/god is the only true one, then there's no reason to belong to any particular sect of Christianity. I won't feel special. I won't be able to gloat that I'm going to heaven and you're not. :rolleyes:

[Gods_Mercenary]

My dad was catholic, he didn't believe that the jehovah's witness was guarenteed to go to hell, nor anyone else, for that matter. My mom would always try to be nice, but even she'd get exasperated when they told her that even a guy in the middle of an unknown Island who never had the chance to turn to christ was going to hell. Like most people, they just liked their faith.

[loser]

If you want to argue in a debate about your opinion on something, explain it clearly, or you just sound like a crazy religious fanatic who's waiting for the space ship.

POV...I'm seeing crazy non-religious fanatics who are NOT waiting on the ship. In this day and age, I thought such neanderthal thinking was a thing of the distance past. I guess not everyone is ready for the 21st century.

Don't worry, I haven't given up on you yet. The light is bright enough to pierce the densest fog.

So if his family and friends can't goto heaven, what chances do the rest of us have? No other human has gone to heaven..... and Jesus is all alone up there in the clouds, playing solitare.

The same chance as anybody else who has ever lived.

Jesus is not alone; He is sitting beside His Father and is accompanied by over a hundred million angels.

You say there is no Trinity, yet you then admit there is a God, you identify the Holy Spirit as being Gods, and you just said Jesus was the Son of God...... sounds like a Trinity to me.

I have on my desktop a pen, a toothpick, and a paper towel. Now, you may see this as a trinity but this is NOT what the RCC (at the Council of Nicaea) determined as being THE trinity.

I thought you were an ex-Catholic which caused me to assume you knew what the Trinity stated. My bad. Here:

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Etneral and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity is Trinity, and the Trinity is Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity. Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man. God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the substance of His mother, born into the world. Perfect God and Perfect Man, of a reasonable Soul and human Flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but One Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into Flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by Unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one Man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Athanasian Creed

As I will state once again, the Trinity is a construct of the RCC and is not taught by scripture.

[loser]

Heaven and Hell are merely beliefs held by Christians. They have no proof of either, let alone anyone who has supposedly ended up there.

I can't prove that the US Space Program actually landed men on the moon. Am I foolish to believe that they have? Logic and reason allow us to sometimes draw pretty accurate conclusions even without proof. It is, after all, what makes man intelligent.

[Jillamanda]

Quote by: loser POV...I'm seeing crazy non-religious fanatics who are NOT waiting on the ship. In this day and age, I thought such neanderthal thinking was a thing of the distance past. I guess not everyone is ready for the 21st century. Don't worry, I haven't given up on you yet. The light is bright enough to pierce the densest fog.

But you're forgetting one thing. Non religious people are non religious. Speaking personally, when I'm dead, I'm dead. Never in my entire life have I believed in the hereafter, so threatening me with no hereafter is an empty threat indeed.

It's like me saying I had this great dream last night and inviting you to join me in it. You can't experience my dream - dream being the operative word. I once heard an expert on schizophrenia lecture on the subject. He said that the best way to describe it, to someone who has never experienced it, would be to use a dream as an example. A non schizophrenic may dream about lying on a beach in Jamaica, then wake up and realize it was just a nice dream. A shizophrenic will dream the same dream while awake, and ACT on it.

I'm not insinuating that religious people are schizophrenic or anything, but it does seem to have some parallels. You are acting on a belief, you have nothing tangible to support it and yet you condemn people who won't go along with it. But as I said before, your condemnations are meaningful only to you. It's like threatening me with the 'big, bad wolf', in fact I'd even give that some consideration, unless, of course, he was born of a virgin etc etc etc.:confused: