Question for Christians

[Praxius]

I am already aware of the holy trinity..... Jesus, God, the Holy Spirit are supose to be one in the same, which to me is a lame loophole to keep Christianity going while avoiding the "False Idol" sin.

[Sinner]

ItsDarts The "No True Scottsman Fallacy" Any other "christian" not subscribing to your dogma is not christian, non-sense. Your appeal to longevity (or something like that) to orthodox doesn't make their interpretation of christianity any more correct than the next guys, its an "interpretation". Your claim that your "interpretion" is the "correct" one is baseless as is any one elses claim of "correctness". You say TomAto, I say TomAHto. The basic tenets of most chrisitan religions are the same.

One can believe that there is no God or one can believe that there is. If latter is the case one can believe in Christ or stick to other religion. If former is the case, one (unless ignorant) will discover that Orthodoxy is the true Christianity and any other denomination is a heresy of various degrees.

Duke1985 Back to Sinner- Yes I tried, I've been to Unitiarian Churches, I've been to Catholic Churches, I've been to Protestant Churches, I've been to Baptist Churches, I've been to Evangelist Churches, I've been to a few churches that just claim to be Christian Churches, I've spoke at great length with Born-Again Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses. So I like to think I've tried my friend, and granted I didn't go to an Orthodox Church, I'm pretty sure your church would be filled with all the things the others were, you just put it in a package appealing to you.

As a wise man said there is only one way to be happy, yet there are millions ways to be unhappy. Simillary, your experience with numerous heresies doesn't in any way prove me wrong. You can go on and try more and more exotic "religions" of which there are many, but it will not get you closer to the truth which is only one.

pahl But you could choose not to worship the God you belive in.

How can I not worship The God I believe in. He accepted painful death for me the least I can do is worship Him even if i won't deserve salvation in the end.

Gods_Mercenary Depends on which priest you get, some sound like they haven't been through the reformation yet, but some I've seen were practically universalists. One told me that going to church didn't matter at all, it was what was in you. I've gone sporadically, mainly with family, and experienced quite a range

.

There is NO SALVATION outside The Church. Because this priest is not part of The Church he tries to assure you that there is nothing wrong with it. He is right thogh, in saying that going to any "church" will not matter.

Praxius The only way I see religions working, is if you have absolute blind faith in it.

There is no blind faith. There is only blind lack of faith.

Aino Ailill No doubt? I do protest. There is major controversy about whether homosexuality is a sin. Every passage that one can point to to say it is can be refuted either through showing misinterpretation, deliberate changing of the text, or through mistranslations.

I hate to disappoint you, but there is no controversy on the subject. Apart from The Holy Scripture which is very clear on this, there is also The Holy Tradition which makes it clear to anyone who prefers not to understand the Scripture.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: Praxius I am already aware of the holy trinity..... Jesus, God, the Holy Spirit are supose to be one in the same, which to me is a lame loophole to keep Christianity going while avoiding the "False Idol" sin.

Well, a loophole that has been doctrine for a long time, one man's loophole is another man's core belief. I would like to add, again, to no one in particular, most theists are aware they are being irratiotional, but they don't care.

[pahl]

How can I not worship The God I believe in. He accepted painful death for me the least I can do is worship Him even if i won't deserve salvation in the end.

What i am saying is that you dont have to worship a God simply because you believe in it. I would not worship your God even if i thought so. He accepted painful death? In comparison to sending millions of people to eternal torture for no other crime then to not have blindly believed and obeyed him, it does not seem like such a feat. These are the actions of a tyrant, someone i could never obey. And i would go as far as to say that it is he who does not deserve salvation, rather than me.

[Sinner]

pahl What i am saying is that you dont have to worship a God simply because you believe in it

This in nonsense. Would you suggest is ignoring reality.

I would not worship your God even if i thought so.

Your choice.

He accepted painful death? In comparison to sending millions of people to eternal torture for no other crime then to not have blindly believed and obeyed him, it does not seem like such a feat. These are the actions of a tyrant, someone i could never obey. And i would go as far as to say that it is he who does not deserve salvation, rather than me.

Probably billions of people. He didn't send then to ethernal torture, they have made the choice themselves. He on the other hand did everything to give them an opportunity to avoid this.

[Jack]

He didn't send then to ethernal torture

What's that, death by Ethernet? Spelling aside, he did indeed condemn them. Until Christianity was articulated and the "rules" announced, people had no opportunity to be saved the Jesus way. Jesus supposedly said there was no way to the father but through him. So we can conclude that before Jesus, there was no way to god. Millions of people condemned to hell because god didn't give birth to Jesus sooner, and make his birth known to the entire world. Your god failed to include much of the world in his offer of salvation, then got pissy because many failed to accept his offer. And for that we're supposed to love and adore him?

That's just part of the reason the Christian god is so unbelievable.

[Gods_Mercenary]

I think there's a thing about all those in the past, before jesus, being freed and going to heaven, or in, the inferno, they enjoy contented sleep.

[Jack]

Does Catholicism still believe in purgatory?

[Gods_Mercenary]

I think so, I'm not really a devout catholic, but the concept of limbo for unbaptized babies is gone now.

[ZNFYRH]

There is no more limbo in Catholicism. It's either Heaven or Hell.

An unbaptized baby, according to Catholicism, goes to Hell. But I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that a baby can be baptized after death.

Obviously, a baby that dies before baptism was probably due to timing or other problems.

[Gods_Mercenary]

An unbaptized baby, according to Catholicism, goes to Hell. But I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that a baby can be baptized after death.

Not true, traditionally they went to limbo, but that's been recently revised. The church says something like "we leave them to the mercyu of God", but I'm pretty sure the understanding is that they'll be saved.

[Gods_Mercenary]

By the way, heres a link, in catholicism salvation isn't as black and white as it sometimes comes off as. Catholic Update - Who Will Be Saved by Thomas Richstatter, O.F.M.

[ZNFYRH]

Thanks for the link, Gods_Mercenary.

Personally, it sounds like "we leave them in the hands of God" is a way for the church to side-step the emotional responses that go with saying a baby doesn't go to Hell, it allows them to lay the blame elsewhere, and also it isn't lying by saying the baby goes to Heaven.

I'm not trying to bash Catholicism or the Catholic Church in any way. I think that certain concepts are not popular in modern culture and the church doesn't want to turn people off to the good stuff in Catholicism by saying "babies go to Hell."

[pahl]

This in nonsense. Would you suggest is ignoring reality.

So if i would have lived in sovjet russia and refused to "worship" stalin, i would be "ignoring reality"?

Quote by: Sinner Quote by: pahlI would not worship your God even if i thought so. Your choice.

So i have that choice, but not you?

Probably billions of people. He didn't send then to ethernal torture, they have made the choice themselves. He on the other hand did everything to give them an opportunity to avoid this.

Lets say that i would rob a bank and take hostages, then make demands for a helicopter to ecape in otherwise i start killing hostages. If the police refuse to comply with my demands, does that make them responible for the killing of the hostages? I gave them every chance to avoid it. Same reasoning, God is by definition omnipotet, he can(and will do) what he wants.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: ZNFYRH Thanks for the link, Gods_Mercenary. Personally, it sounds like "we leave them in the hands of God" is a way for the church to side-step the emotional responses that go with saying a baby doesn't go to Hell, it allows them to lay the blame elsewhere, and also it isn't lying by saying the baby goes to Heaven. I'm not trying to bash Catholicism or the Catholic Church in any way. I think that certain concepts are not popular in modern culture and the church doesn't want to turn people off to the good stuff in Catholicism by saying "babies go to Hell."

Granted, this is one theologian, another might say, "what are you crazy, of course they go to heaven!" short of asking the pope, I'm probably not going to get a perfect answer, and even then it changes when the pope is replaced.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Isherwood Does Catholicism still believe in purgatory?

Yup.

Now everybody here is talking about Jesus dieing for our sins, but now what if the new news is true that he grew old with a family, etc? What will be the defense then?

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: Praxius Yup. Now everybody here is talking about Jesus dieing for our sins, but now what if the new news is true that he grew old with a family, etc? What will be the defense then?

That "new news" you are talking about is being debated at ODN, I'm not sure of the policies here concerning linking to other forums, so instead of possibly breaking any rules, I'll let the readers find ODN and the discussion there. The title is "The Fatal Blow to Christianity" in the reliugion forum, and even though I'm athiest, even I find this harder to believe than "Jesus never existed" and yet I do believe jesus never existed as stated in the bible. The claims of DNA testing?? This should be interesting. If anything it would only prove that Mary either got pregnant by Joseph or another man. There would be no way for DNA to be proven to belong to god. Garaunteed, John Cameron will make millions off of it.

[ZNFYRH]

The first "blow" will be a paternity test. If the DNA of Joseph is a match for Jesus and Mary is the maternal match, that alters the virgin birth. Though someone could argue it by saying that God "used" Joseph's DNA to create the baby.

The second "blow" will be another paternity test. If the DNA of Jesus is a match for any suspected children and Mary Magdalene is the mother.

It would make sense for Jesus to have been married, as he received every sacrament before death. But it's ironic that many Christian denominations reject that Jesus could have been so human.

[Praxius]

I've always believed that Jesus existed..... but whether or not he did all the things people say he did are another thing.

Jesus making water into wine...... could have just had a wine kit handy... or he could have had some powdered juice and sprinkled his hand over the water and there you go..... water into Kool-Aid.... drop some shrooms into it... bam..... trippy wine!

Jesus walking on water....... Could have found a sand bar at low tide..... wooooooo......

Jesus died on the cross for our sins....... could have been sent to prison for a few years and then released, afterwards, they wrote up a big story about him dieing and rising again.

etc etc

[arielmessenger]

in a long long string of them stretching back to the pieces of the True Cross that Constantin's mother found.

Jesus Christ of the Gospels is a literary creation. Good luck trying to find Mary Magdalene when this is a Gospel writer's mistaken translation of the Aramaic words for "Miriam the hairdresser", Yeishu ben Pantera's mom's appellation, Yeishu being the historical "Jesus" who lived a century before his mythical version found in the New Testament Gospels.

If people really wanted to get hold of Yeishu's dna, they should be looking in Lydda, where Yeishu and his five disciples were stoned to death, Yeishu hung on a tree as per Jewish law, and then buried in a cabbage patch somewhere in Lydda.