Question for Christians

[pahl]

@ Sinner

I dont see how anyone could bring themselfes to worship such a God. Even if there was conclusive evidence for gods existence i think i might choose hell over worshipping such a deity.

Atheists, murderers, jews, muslims, witches, pagans, buddihsts, homosexuals, etc. etc...

huh? Witches? You mean those poor women who where burned alive for no good reason at all?

[So we're told,]

In the bible it says
"To get into the gates of Heaven, you must accept Jesus Christ into your heart and accept him as your savior"
so I suppose if you don't do those; then yes you go to hell.
But in Heaven Jesus will work as your lawyer.

[Hmm]

Not according to George Bush!

YouTube - Bush is a universalist?

Another brilliant quote to add to the collection: "...I don't get to decide who goes to heaven..." :rolleyes:

[Sinner]

Duke1985 oh ho! No, I'm not a Christian because I don't subscribe to a religion that even if I follow I won't be getting into heaven.

Getting into heaven is the additional benefit. A Christian must strive to become free. Free of sin that is not free to sin as modern world tends to interpret the freedom.

I went to Church everyday it was in the back of my head, "you don't believe all this"

I would neither believe if I went to the "church" you have been to. Have you conducted research to establish what Christianity is? Have you attempted to find genuine Christianity rather than subscribe to the first available heresy that pretends to be Christianity?

I believe there is a God, but I'm not one to say what it is, and if I goto Christian hell for that, well I was probably going to go to hell even if I was a Christian, so I went with what felt right.

I would asume you were never a Christian for one cannot be a Christian unless he is a part of The Church.

Isherwood Well, let's see who is better at shirking responsibility for their own behavior... the Christian whose every action is dictated by either the will and plan of god or influenced by the devil, or the non-believer who has no one else to blame for their own actions and must take full responsibility for them?

I take full responcibility for my actions. I don't expect God to be lenient just because devil works against me. I have free will and this says it all. The difference between us is the fact that I am aswerable to The Creator when you are answerable to yourself. It is very easy to find exuses for yourself in fact it happens automatically.

Duke1985 By the way Sinner what sect of Christianity do you subscribe to out of curiosity?

I belong to The Holy Cafolic and Apostolic Church. Which means I am an Orthodox Christian ( don't confuse with catholics). The real authentic and genuine Church which never ceased to exist since the time The Christ founded it. The only Church which preserved The Dogma , the teaching and traditions of The Christ, the Holy Apostles and the Saint Fathers.

pahl @ Sinner I dont see how anyone could bring themselfes to worship such a God. Even if there was conclusive evidence for gods existence i think i might choose hell over worshipping such a deity.

I cannot choose a God to worship, nor can I choose how to worship Him. To do that would mean to ignore The Truth.

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: Sinner I would neither believe if I went to the "church" you have been to. Have you conducted research to establish what Christianity is? Have you attempted to find genuine Christianity rather than subscribe to the first available heresy that pretends to be Christianity?

The "No True Scottsman Fallacy" Any other "christian" not subscribing to your dogma is not christian, non-sense. Your appeal to longevity (or something like that) to orthodox doesn't make their interpretation of christianity any more correct than the next guys, its an "interpretation". Your claim that your "interpretion" is the "correct" one is baseless as is any one elses claim of "correctness". You say TomAto, I say TomAHto. The basic tenets of most chrisitan religions are the same.

[Praxius]

According to the Bible, the only way to attain heaven is through Jesus Christ, who suffered upon the cross to attain forgiveness of sin for all who accept him as their personal Lord and savior.

Which is what I never got about Christianity...... you have to believe and worship Jesus..... not God? So what happened to God? Did he get tired and decided to pass the buck to Jesus? Maybe he's got his hands full with the Jewish community worshiping him directly.

The thing I don't get is that God made comandments, which Christians still follow. One of these comands is to not worship any other then God himself..... worshiping any other false idol is a sin.

^ So if you're not supose to worship anybody else besides God and worshiping false idols is a sin, then how come Christians worship Jesus over God? Either Jesus is a false Idol, or God contradicted himself.

[Duke1985]

Quote by: Praxius The thing I don't get is that God made comandments, which Christians still follow. One of these comands is to not worship any other then God himself..... worshiping any other false idol is a sin. ^ So if you're not supose to worship anybody else besides God and worshiping false idols is a sin, then how come Christians worship Jesus over God? Either Jesus is a false Idol, or God contradicted himself.

They believe Jesus is God, well according to the Churches I've been to, but I suppose that isn't real Christianity. (sarcasm to the left.)

Back to Sinner-
Yes I tried, I've been to Unitiarian Churches, I've been to Catholic Churches, I've been to Protestant Churches, I've been to Baptist Churches, I've been to Evangelist Churches, I've been to a few churches that just claim to be Christian Churches, I've spoke at great length with Born-Again Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses. So I like to think I've tried my friend, and granted I didn't go to an Orthodox Church, I'm pretty sure your church would be filled with all the things the others were, you just put it in a package appealing to you.

I've also spent time with a mixed Pagan coven, I've read quite a bit about Buddhism, and spent a great deal of time speaking with atheists and satanists.
Not one of these religions or beliefs worked for me, but I believe I've tried to understand them.

[pahl]

I cannot choose a God to worship, nor can I choose how to worship Him. To do that would mean to ignore The Truth.

But you could choose not to worship the God you belive in.

[arielmessenger]

Since there is no official Gnostic Christian texts we are free of having the New Testament define our type of Christian beliefs. I myself agree with John's Gospel that without acknowledging the primary emanation from God which humans called the "Son", there is no real understanding of Christ's messages and no understanding of how we must turn to God in order to overcome our otherwise animal behavior patterns that dictate continual territorial battling. It is this perennial territorial battling that creates hell on earth.

In other words, there will be no peace on earth, goodwill towards men until men recognize the necessary role of ego submission in service to others--the "cross" we must bear in order to destroy constant male territorial battling.

You see the inherent human as animal behavior pattern clearly on these debate boards. Humans, men especially, are driven by aggressive instincts to acquire, then defend their territories, be they physical or intellectual as they are here. Somewhere along the line someone had to say, "No mas!" "I'm not playing the game anymore!" Jesus did that and set the eternal precedent for sacrifice of power for love, i.e. the basic message of spiritual or pure Christianity devoid of hierarchal organization and man's territorial agendas reinserted back into Pauline or traditional Christianity by the early Church Fathers.

As a Gnostic Christian comparing the Biblical accounts of heaven against the reports of heaven seen in near-death-experiences, I think it's obvious, the old Bible writers were using Apocalyptic formulas, e.g. the stock throne of God set in crystal palaces, choirs of angels singing praises to God 24/7, etc. like in Revelation and the Book of Enoch. These writers never had n.d.e.'s and only wrote to the genre expectations. So I put far more "faith" in the reports of n.d.e.'s about heaven or hell, the latter being found far less frequently in n.d.e' experiences contrary to the Pauline Christian propaganda..

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: Praxius Ah, so me actually having 20+ years of Roman Catholic background is irrelevent? You asked, and I gave you the answer in a nut shell from a Roman Catholic point of view. I could have made it all bubbily and pretty, but that's basically how it works. Those who do not follow or believe in Jesus or God, goto Hell as sinners.

How does that work? That's not Roman Catholic doctrine. Perhaps 20 years ago that's what you got, but it's been softened over the years.

[Asalvatori]

Quote by: Chris Jesus Said most people are going to hell and he seemed to be ok with that.

As Chris quoted these are the words that jesus said. This is viewed through out the world if you are not christian you have rejected jesus christ as Quoted in John 3:18,19. Being good enough is not good enough to go to heaven.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary How does that work? That's not Roman Catholic doctrine. Perhaps 20 years ago that's what you got, but it's been softened over the years.

Not the last couple of times I went a few years ago..... it got worse.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Depends on which priest you get, some sound like they haven't been through the reformation yet, but some I've seen were practically universalists. One told me that going to church didn't matter at all, it was what was in you. I've gone sporadically, mainly with family, and experienced quite a range.

[Praxius]

The priest I had last was a decent guy, and easy going, but once I heard the church pray for sinners, such as gays/lesbians, those who have pre-marital sex, and those who support abortions, I realized that I was on a much different path of understanding then they were and I was just fooling myself and wasting time on this earth following other humans who knew no more about what's going on, then I. I knew these beliefs were a part of the Roman Catholic religion and I figured my area of living, people were of some sound mind.... until I heard them officially confirm they believed in it. I couldn't and so I left. I have people in my family and those I deem as friends who are gay or another relation to something Catholics oppose. To pray and conform to everyone else to pray they change their ways or goto hell, went against everything I am.

It wasn't just that Christianity didn't answer all my questions. It wasn't just that I wasn't getting any answers from Jesus or God when I needed guidance in my life, and it wasn't just because the things they taught contradicted themselves, there was just too many holes not filled in, and too many things that just didn't make sense in these times of living.

The only way I see religions working, is if you have absolute blind faith in it.

[Duke1985]

Quote by: Praxius The only way I see religions working, is if you have absolute blind faith in it.

That really seems to be the ticket.

[Aino Ailill]

Exactly. There is no doubt about certain categories of people that will go to hell 100%. Such as: Atheists, murderers, jews, muslims, witches, pagans, buddihsts, homosexuals, etc. etc...

No doubt? I do protest. There is major controversy about whether homosexuality is a sin. Every passage that one can point to to say it is can be refuted either through showing misinterpretation, deliberate changing of the text, or through mistranslations.

[Praxius]

Half of the people in the bible has homosexual tendancies anyways.

You want to preach about morals and what humans should and shouldn't do, how about someone start with the incest that went on during the Adam and Eve days that started off humanity?

[Apeman81]

Quote by: Praxius Which is what I never got about Christianity...... you have to believe and worship Jesus..... not God? So what happened to God? Did he get tired and decided to pass the buck to Jesus? Maybe he's got his hands full with the Jewish community worshiping him directly. The thing I don't get is that God made comandments, which Christians still follow. One of these comands is to not worship any other then God himself..... worshiping any other false idol is a sin. ^ So if you're not supose to worship anybody else besides God and worshiping false idols is a sin, then how come Christians worship Jesus over God? Either Jesus is a false Idol, or God contradicted himself.

Please investigate the Holy Trinity and get back to me

[ZNFYRH]

I think there is a strange sense of hypocracy among some Christians. One strong example for me was the deacon who spoke to my wife and I before we were married. He was obese... not fat, but OBESE... and was telling us that we were committing a sin by living together before marriage. I called him out on what he said and I specifically said, "I don't think a Glutton should be criticizing ANYONE about sin."

There's also that story about the question, "Is Hell endothermic or exothermic" where it said that since every religion believes other religions are going to hell, then everyone goes to hell.

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: Apeman81 Please investigate the Holy Trinity and get back to me

How about YOU explain in SOME logical fashion how 1+1+1 = 1.

How about you explain Jesus's comment on the cross when he specifically asks Why have YOU forsaken ME? Is he being rhetorical? Why? Doesn't he know his own answer? Even if we assume Jesus existed, what evidence is there of a holy ghost or a god to begin with? If you point to Jesus's miracles, I'll point to magic tricks and myths. The typical answer I get from Catholics is Each is a whole in itself and one in the same. Catholics have been indoctrinated to just believe this and shut up. In other words, thats their story and they're sticking to it and you will like it or go to hell.

:rolleyes: