Another nutjob

[phoenix_fire]

For reporters, Jose Luis De Jesus could seem like a godsend, the kind of character who makes great copy, a man who literally believes he's a godsend, as in the second coming of Jesus Christ. His followers consider him the messiah. His detractors call him a cult leader and a danger. He claims millions of disciples worldwide, and some are willing to express their devotion in unorthodox ways. JOANNA DE JESUS: He's God. He's here to teach us that we should reign in life, that there is no sin. And today, we're honoring him with the symbol. ZARRELLA: Joann De Jesus is one of several dozen members of a religious sect called Crecienda en Gracia, or Growing in Grace. They were tattooed on their arms, ankles, even their necks with 666, the biblical sign of the antichrist. Why? Because their spiritual leader says he is the antichrist, not the embodiment of evil but rather the second coming. JOSE DE JESUS: Six-six-six, antichrist means do not put your eyes on Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Put it in Jesus after the cross. ZARRELLA (on camera): And that's you? JOSE DE JESUS: That's me. ZARRELLA (voice-over): And he says the word "antichrist" is a bad translation of a word that actually means the new Christ, the second coming. Puerto Rican born, Jose Luis De Jesus Miranda founded the sect 20 years ago in a warehouse outside Miami. JOSE DE JESUS: You receive it, you accept it, you confess it and it's done unto you. ZARRELLA: The charismatic 61-year-old De Jesus claims millions of followers, most in Latin America. His sect does have hundreds of churches, cable TV stations and says it brought in $1.4 million in donations last year. And he boasts of a rapidly growing presence in the United States. In an interview with us in September, he declared... JOSE DE JESUS: I do greater things than Jesus of Nazareth. Much greater. ZARRELLA: Now, sporting his new tattoos... JOSE DE JESUS: Seis-seis-seis. Triple. Huh? ZARRELLA: De Jesus says those expecting the second coming of Christ on a cloud with angels have misinterpreted what Jesus himself said. JOSE DE JESUS: He said it. You won't see me anymore, because he will come in another body, which is me. <snip> ZARRELLA: De Jesus preaches that heaven can be found here on earth simply by following him. There's no sin and there is no hell. And that's part of why he's attracting so many followers. But marking your body with 666 seems an unusual way to show you're a Christian, even unnerving the tattoo artist. (on camera) I see you wearing a cross. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Protection. CNN.com - Transcripts

This guy thinks he's Jesus AND the antichrist. How on earth do people like this get followers?

Antichrist website

Questions? Comments? Sarcastic non-sequiturs?

[Jack]

The leader's psychology is easier to understand than that of his followers. I really have a problem with people who can be that gullible. It's interesting that at that extreme, even theists are often appalled.

[Eclipse]

cbs4.com - The Man Who Claims To Be Jesus

This video speaks volumes about his psychology, philosophy, and plans. I see why it is controversial but I see why people enjoy the religion. I mean, c'mon, heaven for all that worship his religion no matter what you do on earth. It's a win-win situation, right? Right? :confused:

[Fonceai]

I agree that he is easier to understand than his followers.

[Athena]

Quote by: phoenix_fire This guy thinks he's Jesus AND the antichrist. How on earth do people like this get followers? Antichrist website Questions? Comments? Sarcastic non-sequiturs?

I assume they get followers same as Pat Robertson or Mother Teresa. They say what people want to hear, and do people think should be done. Cult leaders are most apt to be successful during times of rapid change. When humans go through periods of rapid change they experience more doubt and anxiety, so someone who is confident and assures them they will okay, is very attractive.

I should add the Delhi Lama and the folks from India lecturing on happiness and health such as Deepak Chopra, because our great leaders are not limited to Christian ones. Humans look for good leaders, and what we might examine is how they decide who is a good leader?

[rez]

Quote by: phoenix_fire This guy thinks he's Jesus AND the antichrist. How on earth do people like this get followers? Antichrist website Questions? Comments? Sarcastic non-sequiturs?

As a theist do you have evidence that he is NOT Jesus and the antichrist? Back thousands of years ago people always claimed they were receiving messages from god. Luckily, with the advancements of science people are aware of mental illnesses that were unknown thousands of years ago. To claim this person or aerial's messenger as a nut job would be dishonest. My point is, I would like for you to prove that Jesus wasn't just some other random nut job? Exactly what are the ways in distinguishing who is and who is not a nut job?

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: rez As a theist do you have evidence that he is NOT Jesus and the antichrist? Back thousands of years ago people always claimed they were receiving messages from god. Luckily, with the advancements of science people are aware of mental illnesses that were unknown thousands of years ago. To claim this person or aerial's messenger as a nut job would be dishonest. My point is, I would like for you to prove that Jesus wasn't just some other random nut job? Exactly what are the ways in distinguishing who is and who is not a nut job?

Well, we have to take some things as constant in this life. I believe the Bible to be true. That is the measure. And whether or not you believe the Bible to be true, you can determine that someone is a fake if they claim to accept it and yet contradict it. The advent of Christ was in perfect accordance with the Old Testament, all the way back to Adam and Eve.

I briefly entertained the idea that AM might be for real, but after having reviewed the contents of his website, I came to the conclusion that he had several inconsistencies and places where what he said did not jive with the Bible. Many of them are listed in the thread on him, and he has yet to respond to one. The fact that Jose de Jesus was not Jesus was apparent from my first glimpse of the TV report on him. It is not Biblically sound that the Antichrist and Jesus Christ could be the same person. Anyone who has read it can be sure of this. The fact that his followers are getting "666" tattooed on themselves is further proof. If you read the Bible, it is readily obvious without any need for interpretation or cross reference that the people receiving the Mark of the Beast are neither favored nor in accordance with God. The Beast is against God. Therefore it cannot be of Him.

Further, and this part is highly subjective so I hope you'll indulge me, neither of their personalities are consistent with what they claim. Being a prophet or an incarnation of Jesus should not make one megalomaniacal. If one was truly especially privy to the person and mind of God, one would find oneself so small and dirty that arrogance would not be a likely response. In examining the mechanism by which AM received his "inspiration", I consider it likely that it is a product of his own mind, and not the mind of God. Frankly, there is also a possibility of demonic influence (how's that for politically correct...) but I don't have enough information or experience with it to conclusively state that. My research into Jose de Jesus is still ongoing.

[Praxius]

The original Jesus H.C. never claimed he was the messiah, or the king of the jews, it was his followers who claimed this to be true.

A true decendant of Jesus wouldn't have to identify himself as what he is..... people should just know.

In other words.... he's an intelligent idiot.

If anybody's the Anti-Christ, it's me. Every 6th year of every decade I turn the sixth of my decade of age:

For example, on April 16th 1996, I turned 16 (666)
This past year, on April 16th 2006, I turned 26 (666)

and so on.......

also in the last 5 years, when I got bored, or someone asked me a question, no matter what it was, I would respond with "23!" just as a joke...... it was my own little joke.... then that preview of Jim Carry's movie about 23 came out recently.... my ex called me up and told me about it..... I found it pretty interesting.

And remember, on April 16th, 2046 I will be 66...... I think that's right.....

So if anybody is gonna claim they're the Anti-Christ..... they're gonna have to go though me first.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Praxius The original Jesus H.C. never claimed he was the messiah, or the king of the jews, it was his followers who claimed this to be true. A true decendant of Jesus wouldn't have to identify himself as what he is..... people should just know. In other words.... he's an intelligent idiot. If anybody's the Anti-Christ, it's me. Every 6th year of every decade I turn the sixth of my decade of age: For example, on April 16th 1996, I turned 16 (666) This past year, on April 16th 2006, I turned 26 (666) and so on....... also in the last 5 years, when I got bored, or someone asked me a question, no matter what it was, I would respond with "23!" just as a joke...... it was my own little joke.... then that preview of Jim Carry's movie about 23 came out recently.... my ex called me up and told me about it..... I found it pretty interesting. And remember, on April 16th, 2046 I will be 66...... I think that's right..... So if anybody is gonna claim they're the Anti-Christ..... they're gonna have to go though me first.

Well, actually He told His disciples, but asked them not to spread it around too much.

But that's funny, because as soon as you started talking about the numbers, I was thinking about saying something about "23".

[Osborn F Enready]

Phoenix said: How on earth do people like this get followers?

“When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic.”
-Dresden James

[phoenix_fire]

*raises eyebrow* so...you're saying you believe him?

[rez]

Quote by: phoenix_fire *raises eyebrow* so...you're saying you believe him?

Just like you believe in Jesus, The_Genius believes in Mohammed, and a Hindu believes in Vishnu.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: rez Just like you believe in Jesus, The_Genius believes in Mohammed, and a Hindu believes in Vishnu.

No, I don't think you get it. I was asking Ozzie if he actually believes this guy in the OP. You do not have to state the nature of belief: I'm well aware of it. I could counter by pointing out that one person can believe that I am a male and one can believe that I am a female, but only one of those people would be correct.

[Osborn F Enready]

phoenix said: *raises eyebrow* so...you're saying you believe him?

Heh-heh, uh , no. :rolleyes:

I'm saying the tale of religion(S) have been so widely spun to personal gains by exclusive churches, sects and for political abuse, is it any wonder we are seeing all of them reveal their true extremes when they start poking sticks at each other?

The lie is religion, if it is used for anything other than individual prayer and consoling of soul.

All these religions of today are false practitioners of faith, motivated by profit, power or sin.

I have no problem with individual religion, but it should be obvious that the people who are creating wars in religions name, invoking the "voice" of the creator (or claiming to), and televangelists etc, etc, etc... simply sheep herders, abusing the weak willed, for their own gain.

I don't insult individual religion, I insult sheep herders by calling them what they are.... salesman.

[rez]

Quote by: phoenix_fire No, I don't think you get it. I was asking Ozzie if he actually believes this guy in the OP. You do not have to state the nature of belief: I'm well aware of it. I could counter by pointing out that one person can believe that I am a male and one can believe that I am a female, but only one of those people would be correct.

It is more like all people would think you are male and just change around certain characteristics to conform to their own personal beliefs. Oddly, these people would fight over who has the correct interpretation just like Christians and Muslims do about their beliefs.

Theists all believe in supernatural constructs to explain reality, its just different ways of dressing up those beliefs to represent their own personal beliefs. The point is, I see no reason why you should believe in Jesus, yet deny Jose Luis De Jesus - the bible is not a good way to describe your lack of belief in Jose Duis De Jesus.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: rez It is more like all people would think you are male and just change around certain characteristics to conform to their own personal beliefs. Oddly, these people would fight over who has the correct interpretation just like Christians and Muslims do about their beliefs. Theists all believe in supernatural constructs to explain reality, its just different ways of dressing up those beliefs to represent their own personal beliefs. The point is, I see no reason why you should believe in Jesus, yet deny Jose Luis De Jesus - the bible is not a good way to describe your lack of belief in Jose Duis De Jesus.

Sure it is. Like I said: everyone holds something constant. And furthermore, I pointed out that you don't have to believe in the Bible to understand that someone who claims to follow it and claims to be inspired by its Inspiration but contradicts it in word and action can comfortably be called a fake.

*raises eyebrow* by the way...did you intentionally choose the incorrect answer?

[rez]

What was the question?


The problem is you think that Jose Luis De Jesus contradicts the Bible. God's word is not very clear, thus Christians find their own ways to manipulate and distort what the Bible says to fit their own perspective.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: rez What was the question? The problem is you think that Jose Luis De Jesus contradicts the Bible. God's word is not very clear, thus Christians find their own ways to manipulate and distort what the Bible says to fit their own perspective.

As I said before, with several examples, it is very clear that he does contradict the Bible. The most periphery reading of it could tell you that.

And the question regarded my gender.

[Zhavric]

Convert a few followers, get them to have kids and indoctrinate them from day one and Crecienda en Gracia will be a household name in a few years is spite of being complete BS. It worked for Christianity, it worked for Mormonism and it'll work for this guy, too.

[phoenix_fire]

What I'm wondering, though, is how do you get those initial followers? How in this day and age can one convince people that one is what this guy says he is? I mean, I think it would be difficult enough to convince someone that you were the Antichrist, but darn near impossible to try to convince them you were both the Antichrist and Christ Jesus. I mean...come on.