Another nutjob

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary So does the concept of family and the nation, yet you are not espousing their destruction.

O_o

'Family' isn't something that is used as a tool to cause people to murder or do other unjust things. Family isn't based on lies, either. As for 'nation'... it can be just another form of religion. In fact religion, in many ways, is just another form of government.

I can think of a host of things that inspire people to kill others, including human nature. Religion is not the cause of this abnormal and destructive behavior, it is the outlet.

Please address the argument I am making. I have not taken the stance religion is the cause of all human killing. I have taken the stance religion can be used to easily manipulate people into doing things they wouldn't normally do (like commit murder).

[Gods_Mercenary]

And I am making the argument that anything that people feel strongly about will do this. Religion is not unique nor is it often the biggest contributor, political ambition has killed at least as many as zeal. Family can be used to incite murder, blood fueds and the like, romeo and juliet, if you want an example. It is based on lies, your brother is no more likely to be a better human being than my own, but people would kill another person over their brother any day. My stance is that eliminating religion will do nothing to eliminate killing, we as a race will grasp onto something else and ride it to hell, if you like.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: GM My stance is that eliminating religion will do nothing to eliminate killing, we as a race will grasp onto something else and ride it to hell,

Are you pro-life? Then you'd agree that making clinical abortions illegal won't stop abortion and we should just keep letting it go on, right?

Religion is not harmless, GM. Getting rid of it would go a long way to building a better tomorrow. Sure we'd still have crime & problems, but it would be that much harder for a minority to abusively motivate a majority.

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Z Religion is not harmless, GM. Getting rid of it would go a long way to building a better tomorrow. Sure we'd still have crime & problems, but it would be that much harder for a minority to abusively motivate a majority.

As someone who espouses memetics, you know that the statement I quoted is nonsense.

Religion is an idea. An idea doesn't harm anything.

Harm comes from a person. Gods_Mercenary is absolutely right. Religion is a convenient scapegoat because it is so ambiguous. But in the absence of religion, those with malicious intent will find another cause.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: Zhavric Are you pro-life? Then you'd agree that making clinical abortions illegal won't stop abortion and we should just keep letting it go on, right? Religion is not harmless, GM. Getting rid of it would go a long way to building a better tomorrow. Sure we'd still have crime & problems, but it would be that much harder for a minority to abusively motivate a majority.

Pro life in that I don't think abortions are desirable nor moral, but not pro- life in that I'm a rabid supporter of legislating against them, especially at the federal level.

[Fonceai]

Don't derail this with open-ended questioning. Make the point, because otherwise that line of questioning is off-topic.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Fonceai As someone who espouses memetics, you know that the statement I quoted is nonsense. Religion is an idea. An idea doesn't harm anything.

Because I understand memes, I understand how they can be used to motivate us & play on our emotions. Religion can send men on crusades and convince them strapping a bomb to themselves and blowing up children is a 'good' thing to do.

I'm reminded of a quote from the comedian Eddy Izzard:

"The NRA says guns don't kill people. PEOPLE kill people. I think we can all agree though... that the gun helps."

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Pro life in that I don't think abortions are desirable nor moral, but not pro- life in that I'm a rabid supporter of legislating against them, especially at the federal level.

Excellent dodge. Care to address the analogy I challenged you with?

[Gods_Mercenary]

Thank you, although its an actual stance, I'm a little wary about making such things law. I agree that making abortions illegal won't stop them, same with religion, it will just force us to do our unreasonable killing in a new, back alley, sort of way, if you go along with my analogy. Or we'll just make an old way into the main way. Soon the new way will become common and we'll be fihgting to eliminate it.

[Zhavric]

There are no benefits gained from religion that cannot be gained throug secular channels. There are considerable intellectual (and sometimes physical) harms religion causes. We do not need religion.

It's ridiculous to look at modern day religions with intellectual contempt while looking to ancient religions with blind devotion.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Probably, but how do you intend to eliminate religion? People like it, a lot, and the organized ones are growing, it seems.

[Zhavric]

I'm working on that.

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Z Because I understand memes, I understand how they can be used to motivate us & play on our emotions. Religion can send men on crusades and convince them strapping a bomb to themselves and blowing up children is a 'good' thing to do.

You clearly don't understand.

Religion doesn't "convince" you. People convince you.

At some point, a person told someone that certain actions coincide with certain religious principles.

It's that simple.

Religion doesn't force a person to do anything.

They tried this sort of thing with books... saying that books were subversive and "made" people do bad things.

Jack Thompson is trying to do it with video games.

It remains that the only thing that really influences a person is another person, and even then it's still a choice.

If you're going to say religion is to blame for negative behavior, would you also say that religion is the inspiration for positive behavior?

[Gods_Mercenary]

True, charity certainly comes out of the conviction that you'll be rewarded in the afterlife, I believe evangelicals and catholics are among the biggest givers to charity, not just religious ones, by the way, which are some of the most successful charities around.

[Duke1985]

Quote by: Fonceai If you're going to say religion is to blame for negative behavior, would you also say that religion is the inspiration for positive behavior?

Religion is something that is necessary to society whether you believe its true or not.
Sure bad things happen because of religion, but good things happen too.
Its not bad when a ministry goes to disaster site and helps rebuild, its not bad a church does canned food drive, and some churches also have community outreach centers. When I was in catholic school, that church was operating a homeless shelter. These are positive things
Also most religions set some sort of moral code for their followers, thats surely a decent thing in most cases.

And on the other hand, negative things defiantly come out of religion. I've seen several sermons where the focus was denouncing gays, pagans, and anyone else who didn't fit the mold, and the whole constant everyone else is going to hell game, which makes some of their followers weary at the least around these people.
Wars have been carried out for religion, we have suicide bombers because of religion.

Its not perfect but its there, and I think it helps some people get through life thinking there is some sort god out there or whatever.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Duke1985 Religion is something that is necessary to society

I'm sorry, Duke, but none of the evidence you presented supported your assertion above.

Sure bad things happen because of religion,

Understatement.

but good things happen too. Its not bad when a ministry goes to disaster site and helps rebuild,

You claimed religion is necessary. How is religion necessary for disaster relief? In such a situation religion ISN'T an issue. Could you imagine Tom Cruise going to New Orleans with a few trucks full of food and medicine and saying over a loud speaker. "We're only giving these to people who believe in Xenu. All you non-scientologists get lost."

It is not necessary for a group to be religious to provide aid.

its not bad a church does canned food drive, and some churches also have community outreach centers. When I was in catholic school, that church was operating a homeless shelter. These are positive things

See above. You have not demonstrated religion is, specifically, necessary for these things to happen.

Why do I need to believe in something without evidence to receive a can of food? Why do I need to engage in ritualized cannibalism / vampirism to donate?

Also most religions set some sort of moral code for their followers, thats surely a decent thing in most cases.

The moral codes of many religions (Christianity and Islam especially) are easily manipulated. As was stated earlier, the only constant is blind loyalty to god and those who are his clergy. This is EXACTLY how Christian politicians hell-bent of shafting people get voted into office. This is EXACTLY how Muslims become suicide bombers.

Its not perfect but its there, and I think it helps some people get through life thinking there is some sort god out there or whatever.

That sounds suspiciously like a drug.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Religious charities, however, are the most effective and competant, as well as trustworthy charities around, Governments suck at it, and non religous ones haven't shown the same "zeal" if you will, in their efforts. How many atheists do you know who give up their entire lives and go live in a disease ridden village to help people.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Religious charities, however, are the most effective and competant, as well as trustworthy charities around, Governments suck at it, and non religous ones haven't shown the same "zeal" if you will, in their efforts.

False dilemma: There are independent secular charities.

How many atheists do you know who give up their entire lives and go live in a disease ridden village to help people.

None, but I don't personally know any religious people who've done that, either. It's a bad question because it's asking for anecdotal evidence.

A better question is why does someone need to believe a specific lie to assist others?

[Duke1985]

Okay you got me I didn't back that claim up. I'm not saying religion is necessary for charity or disaster relief, honestly I forgot I wrote that part I get lost when I write and forget I said things and I don't proof read. I was trying give examples the good and bad that can come from religion, and in this I feel I succeeded.

[Gods_Mercenary]

False dilemma: There are independent secular charities.

Never claimed there weren't, I said religous charities tend to be more effective and widespread.

None, but I don't personally know any religious people who've done that, either. It's a bad question because it's asking for anecdotal evidence.

I never said personally know, just know of. Mother Theresa, for one, thousands of nuns in her order, countless christian clerics and laypeople around the world in places where normal people wouldn't think to go. And most often there's no religous conversion at all, just plain giving stuff to others.

A better question is why does someone need to believe a specific lie to assist others?

Because humans suck, more specifically because, I don't know about you, but I'm not gonna bother helping a person when they're gonna be dead in a relatively tiny amount of time, as will I, and we both are serving as just as good fertilizer as we would have if they had suffered and I had been selfish.