the sexy animal

[Athena]

NOVA | The Last Great Ape | The Bonobo In All of Us | PBS "Bonobos help us to see ourselves more in the round," says Frans de Waal, a primatologist at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center in Atlanta. In particular, he says, we can learn as much about human evolution and behavior by studying the sensitive, peace-loving bonobo as by studying the more violent chimpanzee—both of which share more than 98 percent of our DNA. In this interview, de Waal explains what the ape he calls the "make-love-not-war" primate can teach us about who we are—and why, for this reason alone, it's vital to protect this highly endangered close relative of ours.

In the animal kingdom there are two animals that make love all the time, and are not restricted to doing it when the female is in heat (ready to get pregnant). The bonobos and humans. The mating behavoirs of different species is controlled by DNA, and that means God could have made us monogamous as some birds are monogamous for life. But God gave us the bonding DNA of bonodos, which is different from the bonding DNA of chimps who make love only when the female is in heat. The sexual behavior of bonodos and humans, plays an important role in social behavior and order.

Had the world known of bonodos when Darwin's theory of evolution became popular, we might have a very different understanding of ourselves.

Interesting is the chimps evolved where food is scarce and the bonodos evolved food is plentiful. This means female chimps separate while foraging and eating, and are easily dominated by larger and stronger males. But female bonodos forage and eat together, and their unity means they have female dominated troops, not the agressive male dominated troops of chimps.

In our past, we were forced to depend on males, but modern industrialization has freed women from such male domination and they are learning to develop female support groups. They are gaining the political power needed for better care of children, and addressing social concerns from a female perspective. Men can be as caring as females, so I don't mean to berate males, but will say, they can now proudly boost of being caring, instead of hiding their gentlier selves for fear of being considered effeminate. We are living in a changing reality.

Now if we can just get past male dominated religions, with their terrible opinion of what it means to be human, we might have a new golden age. Thank goodness for science teaching us better about ourselves.

[sevendogs]

Actually humans (Homo sapiens) are most sexually active animals among all mammals. Even pregnant females continue mating! They make a love a lot and they make wars nevertheless. All chimps and bonobos are far behind us in the sexuality. We have nothing to learn from them in sex and sexual excesses and perversions of all kinds. I do not know why God made us so strange. This probably can be answered by Pat Robertson, but I have never asked.

[Technosoul]

If love making is the dominating factor for those primates how come they are endangered and the chimps are not?

You would think that with all the female dominated free love that they would overpopulate and reproduce a lot of off spring. And not be endangered.

No doubt those who favor Darwin would point out that the "make love not war" primate was not successful and that if humans had in fact evolved that system we would also be endangered. And like the "summer of love" hippy humans we would "vanish" and then become just a Woodstock legendary group of the past. Did you know that the hippy is an endangered speices? well they only got a few of them left.

Where have all the flowers gone, gone to war every one. To be replaced by "tuff love" and Punk Rock. Whatever?

Now the bunny is a make love speicies, it works for them because they can reproduce a lot of baby bunnies and the wolves and owls cannot eat them as fast as they are produced. Humans and primates have fewer off spring and it takes longer for the children to know how to survive as mother- independant beings. And so in a natural setting the war makers would win the "battle" for dominance.

However their was such a civilazation once upon a time, that lasted for very long time, where they appeared to be female dominated ( as they found lots of stone images of a female like goddess with big boobs - famous as being the "first" such icon). Research of the digs found no weapons and no hunting tools. They depended on crops and fruit trees as a source of food.
They did not have domestic horses or other such farm animals.

But later they were attacked by other distant tribes who had horses and so they had to learn how to defend their truf, and the war-like momentum took front seat as our cultures progressed. And "here we are".

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Athena Now if we can just get past male dominated religions, with their terrible opinion of what it means to be human, we might have a new golden age.

As defined by whom?


I'll sit that one out, thanks.

[Athena]

Quote by: sevendogs Actually humans (Homo sapiens) are most sexually active animals among all mammals. Even pregnant females continue mating! They make a love a lot and they make wars nevertheless. All chimps and bonobos are far behind us in the sexuality. We have nothing to learn from them in sex and sexual excesses and perversions of all kinds. I do not know why God made us so strange. This probably can be answered by Pat Robertson, but I have never asked.

This discussion will go better if you informed yourself before making an arguement.

[Athena]

Quote by: Milton Bradley As defined by whom? I'll sit that one out, thanks.

What defined by whom? I was refering to the idea that we are born in sin. New threads have popped up, suggesting we would brutish without governments to prevent this. Time and time again I have read a very low opinion of humans, and I hope this changes. Are you one of the people who wants to speak well of humans?

[Athena]

Quote by: Technosoul If love making is the dominating factor for those primates how come they are endangered and the chimps are not? You would think that with all the female dominated free love that they would overpopulate and reproduce a lot of off spring. And not be endangered. No doubt those who favor Darwin would point out that the "make love not war" primate was not successful and that if humans had in fact evolved that system we would also be endangered. And like the "summer of love" hippy humans we would "vanish" and then become just a Woodstock legendary group of the past. Did you know that the hippy is an endangered speices? well they only got a few of them left. Where have all the flowers gone, gone to war every one. To be replaced by "tuff love" and Punk Rock. Whatever? Now the bunny is a make love speicies, it works for them because they can reproduce a lot of baby bunnies and the wolves and owls cannot eat them as fast as they are produced. Humans and primates have fewer off spring and it takes longer for the children to know how to survive as mother- independant beings. And so in a natural setting the war makers would win the "battle" for dominance. However their was such a civilazation once upon a time, that lasted for very long time, where they appeared to be female dominated ( as they found lots of stone images of a female like goddess with big boobs - famous as being the "first" such icon). Research of the digs found no weapons and no hunting tools. They depended on crops and fruit trees as a source of food. They did not have domestic horses or other such farm animals. But later they were attacked by other distant tribes who had horses and so they had to learn how to defend their truf, and the war-like momentum took front seat as our cultures progressed. And "here we are".

They are endangered because of a human war. The war went on for several years and desparate people were killing them for food and to market them for food.

I assume you are joking about the decrease in the hippie population.

A bonodos child remains with the mother for five years. The sexual activity serves to comfort eachother. This makes them distinctly different from other animals. Rabbits do not stay with their mothers for five years of learning, and their sex is not about comforting each other.

We do agree on the peaceful people who lived in the open, and developed the arts that are the foundation of civilization. When the invaders came, they left their open villages and went to more easily defended areas, where they then divided between warriors and farmers and bureaucrats. Pictures of nature became pictures of war, and simple sanctuaries in nature, became elaborate temples, with bigger than life statues of Gods and kings. A radical change in human relationships and purpose.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Technosoul However their was such a civilazation once upon a time, that lasted for very long time, where they appeared to be female dominated ( as they found lots of stone images of a female like goddess with big boobs - famous as being the "first" such icon). Research of the digs found no weapons and no hunting tools. They depended on crops and fruit trees as a source of food. They did not have domestic horses or other such farm animals.

Thanks Technosoul! You have confirmed by way of your information that ealriest humans might have been vegetarians as I continue thinking. This I have been trying to say in the thread "Vegetarianism" under "Rights and Society" forum. Have you any detail references to confirm it??

Sex does play very important role in maintaining conducive relations between partners of any species. Female pleasing (capturing) too is seen predominant reason for war and jealousy among males. But then peculiar love for one's offsprings is the main reason for prelonging the race of species. Evolution goes on along with as another specific behaviourial properties of living beings.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Athena What defined by whom? I was refering to the idea that we are born in sin. New threads have popped up, suggesting we would brutish without governments to prevent this. Time and time again I have read a very low opinion of humans, and I hope this changes. Are you one of the people who wants to speak well of humans?

I thought you were leaning towards replacing the male god/gods with female god/gods to achieve your Golden Age.

[sevendogs]

Making love is not enough for biological success. Even giving birth to young does not secure it. Survival of offspring until reproductive age does and this is not always the case with big mammales, because of mortality and shortage of living space. The most successful mammal on earth up to date is Homo sapiens. Even wars, infectious and other diseases or natural disasters do not stop us. We are growing numerically to our own destruction in the end. At this, we are not different from other animals. We make love and we breed until natural factors will take care of us and those are quite cruel. Worse, then abortions.

[Athena]

Quote by: Milton Bradley I thought you were leaning towards replacing the male god/gods with female god/gods to achieve your Golden Age.

Well, you are right. I am leaning in that direction, but let me explain. Hum, these egg shells are pretty thin and I don't know if I can walk on them without breaking them-

When men age they become more domestic. That is what is taught when a person studies gerontology. Historically, several war leaders have become peaceful men when their testosterone levels decrease. I have also heard of males saying they did not enjoy the brutality of their youth and things that go down to prove they are tough. It was actually painful to them, and this brutal behavior is perpetuated with the pain of being brutish. The number of men who do not like their own sex because of the hurtful behaviors committed by men, is unfortunate. Now I don't know where you stand. You might feel defensive or you might agree that men in general, improve with age.

I think the difference between chimps, and bonodos food supply, and female behavior is significant. Females chimps are forced to separate while foraging for food, and this makes them vulnerable to stonger males who take their food and are aggressive in other ways as well. Bonodos have strength and safety by staying together.

Now we might compare nomadic hurter societies with agregarian ones. The earlist agregarian ones appear to be peaceful, and the nomadic hunters were not. I think the diety Isis who was the bread and water, became Jesus the bread and wine, because of this shift from agregarian culture to a male dominated, hunter influenced culture and the belief a God wants bloody animal sacrifices. Concerns about vegetarianism and our culture are valid. I also think women's liberation made it taboo to be feminine and made us more prone to war.

But what goes with this subject is, intolerance of sex, aggressivesness, brutishness and the idea that we are born in sin. Yet there have been human societies that think sex is a good thing, and violence or brutishness are a bad thing. The idea we are born in sin and doomed to be like chimps instead bonodos is silly. How we are, depends on culture, not just our nature, which can go either way.

[Athena]

Quote by: sevendogs Making love is not enough for biological success. Even giving birth to young does not secure it. Survival of offspring until reproductive age does and this is not always the case with big mammales, because of mortality and shortage of living space. The most successful mammal on earth up to date is Homo sapiens. Even wars, infectious and other diseases or natural disasters do not stop us. We are growing numerically to our own destruction in the end. At this, we are not different from other animals. We make love and we breed until natural factors will take care of us and those are quite cruel. Worse, then abortions.

I want to say something more positive about our human capacity for controlling our lives with reason. Extremely few people have 14 to 16 children in the US as was once common. Ben Franklin with something like the 14 th child in his family. In general, people living in cities have fewer children and this was so even in ancient Rome.

Because of a very agressive communist Chinese effort to restrict couples to one child, these people now think it is socially irresponsible to have more children.

Humans do at times practice good reasoning when they know what good reasoning is. Now having to have babies until a son is born, because one can not get to the good after life without a son to preform the final ritual, when there is intense poverty and people have to sell their children as a cheap labor, is not our idea of good reasoning. The human cost is too high. On the other hand, there is also a cost to being afraid of having too many children, instead of feeling blessed with each child. But, we can reason through our reproduction decisions.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Athena Well, you are right. I am leaning in that direction, but let me explain. Hum, these egg shells are pretty thin and I don't know if I can walk on them without breaking them-

Yikes!

Quote by: Athena When men age they become more domestic. That is what is taught when a person studies gerontology. Historically, several war leaders have become peaceful men when their testosterone levels decrease. I have also heard of males saying they did not enjoy the brutality of their youth and things that go down to prove they are tough. It was actually painful to them, and this brutal behavior is perpetuated with the pain of being brutish. The number of men who do not like their own sex because of the hurtful behaviors committed by men, is unfortunate. Now I don't know where you stand. You might feel defensive or you might agree that men in general, improve with age.

All good, solid logic. I can't say I disagree with anything articulated so far, except...


All men are not overly agressive, and I don't think you can extrapolate your point out to make a female God look desirable to me. ( Cause I think thats where your going with this. )

Quote by: Athena I think the difference between chimps, and bonodos food supply, and female behavior is significant. Females chimps are forced to separate while foraging for food, and this makes them vulnerable to stonger males who take their food and are aggressive in other ways as well. Bonodos have strength and safety by staying together.

Ah, but what of territorial disputes? You still have to enter the tribal dynamic, because we are not all one big happy family.

Quote by: Athena But what goes with this subject is, intolerance of sex, aggressivesness, brutishness and the idea that we are born in sin. Yet there have been human societies that think sex is a good thing, and violence or brutishness are a bad thing. The idea we are born in sin and doomed to be like chimps instead bonodos is silly. How we are, depends on culture, not just our nature, which can go either way.

History conflicts with this premise.


I didn't make the rules, I'm just reporting on what I am able to abserve.

[Eclipse]

Let's not make the same mistake on the other side of the spectrum.

I've seen a lot of misconceptions about our past here. First off, our hunter societies of the past, which you should call foraging societes for the most part (90% of H and G societies were primarily gatherers with hunting or fishing to supplement and those that were hunting societies were really fishing/sealing societies they were not male-dominated) were so because males, who were physically larger and were not as important as females in the reproduction picture, went out to hunt huge animals like the mammoth in dangerous hunts due to those two factors for the most part. Not because they saw the other as less superior or more superior.

The idea of male dominance in our past likely came about because males had a dominating role in making those speculations from a male dominated society (to some extent).

Secondly, territorialy societies overcame the non-territorial societies but we were originally non-territorial with foraging societies. Foraging or gardening groups travelled to new locations seasonally and were a big happy family for the most part. They left behind excess caches of food on common foraging and hunting locations for other groups, who may pass by, to take a share of. The rule was usually around 1/2 of the cache per group. This was very common among our ancestors in foraging societies. Males and females generally did the same things but most males were physically more robust then females and thus the tasks were assorted for reasons of ease not superiority. Until people became territorial (ie settled down with extensive agriculture) there was little if any superiority.

Quote by: Athena You might feel defensive or you might agree that men in general, improve with age.

Males and females both improve with age. It's a thing called wisdom/maturity. And some people don't improve at all. This is too general a theory and has no grounds besides stereotypes.

I think the difference between chimps, and bonodos food supply, and female behavior is significant. Females chimps are forced to separate while foraging for food, and this makes them vulnerable to stonger males who take their food and are aggressive in other ways as well. Bonodos have strength and safety by staying together.

This too is far to general to be true. Female chimps are not dominated by large males and chimps are hedonistic just like the Bonobos. The only difference is the extent. The dominant male in the chimpanzee's social group is usually decided by the one who has the biggest display (which can mean a variety of things). I remember a clip about a small and younger male chimp went to the primatologist's camp, stole some pots and pans and banged them together to scare off the dominant male. Besides being amusing, it shows the dominance is not so physical as throwing chimps around and stealing their food. Dominance in the chimp group does not allocate more sexual access or necessarily greater power over the group either. Females are free to choose their mates among all the chimps and may even practice homosexuality.

All that aside, I'm fascinated by the Bonobos That was a great article, thankyou.