are we ever really ourselves?

[Rive]

Or are we the products of the world around us? Do we act of our own will, and choose are own paths or are we doomed to follow, even subconciously?

i'll give my opinion after a few posts

[Jack]

I'm not sure in the strictest sense there is an "ourselves" to be.
Perhaps for the first several days after birth we're without any kind of knowledge beyond instinct; eat, sleep, poop.
As soon as we are aware of outside input we start to become amalgamations of what we see and hear, taste and touch, etc. I think most people grow up with attitudes, opinions and beliefs that they've picked up along the way and now consider their own.
Once and a while someone will take the knowledge they posses and combine it or apply it in a way no one has considered before. Newton, Einstein, Berners-Lee. None of them invented anything out of the whole cloth, but they took what they knew and used it to develop a theory or product that hadn't existed prior to that.
So in that sense I'd say we're very much products of our world. You don't hear of a child in an African village suddenly come up with a new economic model for a nation. We can only output combinations of what we've allowed to be input, or what was available as input.

[Athena]

Isherwood said it well. The subject is a good one, because we have to think.

I am the product of WWII and one of the baby boom generation. No question about it. I am a New Ager because the concept came up when I was still easily impressionable.

In some ways I am like my father even though he wasn't around during my developing years. I am very sure some of our traits are inherited.

Since passing 50 I have enjoyed claiming who I am, more than at any other time in my life. I don't feel a need to be liked by anyone. It is really hard to establish a relationship with someone of the opposit sex, because I have no desire to adjust to please anyone and the gentlemen I meet who are not already married, seem to feel the same. Really different from when I was younger and would walk over hot coals to be pleasing to a man, or just about anyone else, as I needed to be validated as a desirable, good person. I guess being content with who I am makes me really myself, regardless of the ingredients that make me who I am.

[Boetie]

We aren't just dropped into society with all the ready-made capacities that make us human. Even our most "private" thoughts derive from linguistic resources that aren't our own.

[gallo]

Quote by: Rive Or are we the products of the world around us?

Of course we are products of the world around us. That doesn't mean that I am not myself (whatever that means). I am the product of the world around me, my parents and my brothers. My life since then has also determined who I am today. My Army service, my years as a teacher and an academic, and my years in business are also meaningful. I am the sum of my life.

Quote by: Rive Do we act of our own will, and choose are own paths or are we doomed to follow, even subconciously?

Mostly I would go with we go with our own will, even if colored by previous experience.

Quote by: Rive i'll give my opinion after a few posts

I await with baited breath.

P.S. At times I am, indeed, myself without reservation. But those times are private between my wife and myself.

[Technosoul]

Once I thought about breaking free from being one of the cookie cutter clones of everyone else in the establishment so I became a rebel, but it did not take long before I discovered that all us rebels dressed the same way, and listened to the same kind of music, and combed our hair alike, and so forth, even rebels confrom to the trends of the established "rebelhood". (new word)

And so other then our physical DNA make up, and our fingerprints, we are pretty much phychologically "not ourself" due to the cloning of consciousness by our environment, peer pressure, role models, and so on and so forth.

And yet we are our self because we are aware that we in fact are not someone else, or "them". We are aware of our indivdual seperation from the rest of the community, not as aliens, but not far from being a "loner" when it comes right down to it. Our self and ourself alone. And I think as such each person has formulated out of all he has learned and adopted a slightly "personal interpretation" relative to that perception which we might call "our self". But in most cases it would be hard to see those slight variables of consciousness in others, like not seeing a single tree because we are looking at the forest from a distance.

[Praxius]

Nobody else has interperated the world around me like I did, nor have I done similar to anybody else.

The influence of others around me and the enviroment I live in have all had a factor and made me who I am, but in the end I decided which paths I should take and what is important to me.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: Rive Or are we the products of the world around us? Do we act of our own will, and choose are own paths or are we doomed to follow, even subconciously?

I don't see why it can't be both. The world around me influences me, certainly, and I react to it, but the way in which I choose to react reflects me and only me. Even in following, I am making a choice that represents my own values and ideals, although it may only represent that I feel they are unworthy and should be sublimated. But that is ever my choice, and mine alone; nobody else follows in quite the same way that I do.

Sure, we wear masks with other people -- but those masks are molded to our faces. I think of our public personas as similar to the classic stories about the burglar who tried to make false fingerprints and stick them to the ends of his fingers -- I think it was out of latex, but it might have been wax or something else -- and then left fingerprints, willy-nilly, whenever he committed a crime. He was surprised when the police showed up at his door, until he found out that the oils of his fingers had melted and reshaped his fingerprint prostheses into perfect casts of his own fingerprints.

That is what happens to our masks. No matter how unlike us they may be at the beginning, as time goes on they take on more and more of our true features, until they are indistinguishable from the face beneath.

[Rive]

ok, my opinion

you've all made good points

Isherwood- so very true, we begin as animals, and build on a the history and actions of those around us. Without others, we would not be where we are today. This is the basis of civilization, learning from other's discoveries and mistakes and building from there.

Technosoul - Rebelling isn't anything more than conforming. Its putting yourself into a group. You won't stand out as an individual because there is nothing unique about it. The most you can do to rebel is to think for yourself. Seriously consider everything, not make any judgement until everything has been thought through, and always be open minded to any possibility. I have to disagree to the "we are our self because we are aware that we in fact are not someone else". In a society, there are those who not individuals, but instead just what they think they should be to fit in. They are not unique, they each have their own unique lives, yes, but they do not think for themselves. They let others make thier choices for them. A true individual makes their own choice. Just because you are you doesn't mean you are yourself. Many people could benefit from time in solitude and self reflection.


CofeeSaint - It is you that have come the closest to how I feel about this. There are two sides to us all. The one we show to the world, and the one we keep inside ourselves. If we get lost in our "mask" it will overcome our own true "self". We lose ourselves in life, and change. We are who we are, but then again, we are trying to be what everyone else thinks we should be.

My opinion
We are both products and raw materials. We have our own thoughts and opinions, but others (society) molds us into the forms that we become. Without the world around us we are merely animals, but we shouldn't follow others blindly. Too often we get caught up in our own lives, that we do not have time to give everything the thought and consideration it should be given. We just follow, and lose ourselves.

I think to a certain extent we choose our own path, but that path is mostly in the footsteps of those before us. We don't actively follow someone else's path, but still, mostly we don't make our own. We may do things differently, but ultimately this path is the same. Much of the road has already been paved, its hard to make our own way on it.

There is more I could say, but I'm not the best with words. I look forword to further responses. You've all given much for me to consider

[Praxius]

We as humans are individuals that create a collective. Our influence influences others and vise versa...... we educate one another, and we interact with one another. We pass our knowlege onto others and they do the same. We collectively grow and expand our knowlege to better ourselves as a collective, while at the same time, we better our desires to define our individuality.

We are ourselves, and us being ourselves influences others around us to evolve theirselves as well.

If we were like a collective such as something like Borg, then we wouldn't be ourselves, we would all be one. Our individual minds and the seperation between them is what keeps us who we are.

[Technosoul]

Here is a example from the Book by Alan Watts called "The taboo agenst knowing who you are. His philosophy is a "must read" for those interested in getting into the topic called "being your self".

Alan Watts THE BOOK Chapter I

Rebelling and conforming is not how to be yourself, which is what I attempted to relate.

Of course I have been involved in meditation, solitude theorpy, bio-feedback, guided meditations, nature walks, self reflection, and philosophy.

The self cannot seek to find the self because the self is the seeker. Sort of like the idea that the eye cannot see the eye. And a mirror is not the same thing as the real thing. And Moses already used the term "I Am that I Am" as a name representing God.

In the solitude of a think tank you can become conscious of the self but you are limiting that self to "thoughts only". From another perspective you might define the self as your body, a bag of bones wrapped in skin. Or you could put them together and get a "thinking body with individual aspects". Then you can get some make up, some personality masks, some clothing, and a car to use as one of your external "self" images. And with some creativity you could become the fantasy self of your own imagination.

But a case could be made to suggest that the self does not stop at the outer layer of the skin. They say that beauty is only skin deep and so we came up with an idea of finding that "inner person" - so as not to judge a book by it's cover". But again, the fact is that "self" also goes far beyond just our human form, as we breathe air, consume water and food, and interact with nature, human technology, and a culture ( sometimes more then one culture). In other words, we can comprehend that the self is the whole earth, or the whole universe, and that we are part of our (larger) Self.

Just like your toe nail is part of your "human body self" we as the total human are part of yet another "extended self" which is nature (aka - the whole environment).

And so you see we can have a number of different ideas about what all would consitute a "self". For we are as much a part of the surroundings as we are a part of thoughts, our personal body, and our feelings and sensitivities. And so finding yourself is finding that note that you are that is in harmony with the whole song. This would be best explained in more poetic ways. But perhaps you all get the drift anyway?

Perhaps the Book of Tao best explains this idea.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Rive Or are we the products of the world around us? Do we act of our own will, and choose are own paths or are we doomed to follow, even subconciously?

Everyone is influenced by their environment, but no two people in the same way. No two people share the same environment, and very few people share a common genotype. So, we are all ourselves in the sense that we are all different, but this self is a product mainly of our surroundings. However, being influenced by one’s environment is only denying one’s self if “self” is defined simply as one’s genes. If that is the case, why would you even want to be purely yourself?

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: Rive CofeeSaint - It is you that have come the closest to how I feel about this. There are two sides to us all. The one we show to the world, and the one we keep inside ourselves. If we get lost in our "mask" it will overcome our own true "self". We lose ourselves in life, and change. We are who we are, but then again, we are trying to be what everyone else thinks we should be.

I would put it the other way around: the longer we wear a mask, the greater the chance that the mask will be lost in our "true" self. The self is too strong to be covered by a facade for long; people just don't lie that well. I think that what bothers people who begin to question if their public persona has taken over their true self is the simple fact that their public persona may be who they really are, and they don't like it.

I've been a teacher for seven years now, and every year I get a little bit more bitter and cynical, and a little more short-tempered. I've bemoaned the loss of my patience, and the joy I used to feel when teaching -- until I realized that those feelings were the false ones. I really am cynical and bitter, and the reason I had so much trouble dealing with the stress of teaching for the last seven years is because I didn't want to be bitter and cynical, so I lied to myself and told myself that I was patient and enjoyed helping to mold young minds. While I am patient, and I do enjoy helping to mold young minds, those are not my defining characteristics: having accepted this -- just in the last few months, really -- my stress is slowly melting away. I'm still struggling with it for the reason I said above: part of me feels guilty for my true self's feelings. In some way -- mostly because of societal expectations -- I think the mask is a better person. But the bitter one is me, and accepting that means I don't have to fight myself any more -- and that does make me happier.

Quote by: Rive My opinion We are both products and raw materials. We have our own thoughts and opinions, but others (society) molds us into the forms that we become. Without the world around us we are merely animals, but we shouldn't follow others blindly. Too often we get caught up in our own lives, that we do not have time to give everything the thought and consideration it should be given. We just follow, and lose ourselves. I think to a certain extent we choose our own path, but that path is mostly in the footsteps of those before us. We don't actively follow someone else's path, but still, mostly we don't make our own. We may do things differently, but ultimately this path is the same. Much of the road has already been paved, its hard to make our own way on it. There is more I could say, but I'm not the best with words. I look forword to further responses. You've all given much for me to consider

I don't believe that society molds us against our will, or away from our true path/ true calling. If one is confused about who the true self is, or what one's proper path/calling in life is, it is because there is more than one possibility for a dominant personality, more than one life path that one could follow. I don't believe it is because society and outside influences have seduced us away from ourselves. So I disagree: I think we do form our own paths when it comes to the large and important choices in life, and can't do anything but. That's why, I believe, we try to follow others in small, superficial ways, such as pop culture and fashion, because then we can gain comfort from the relief of not having to think too much about what's right or good. But in terms of our own morality and intelligences and beliefs, our own vocations and place in life, all of that comes from within: you always make your own bed. If society puts you in a place you don't like, you work your way out of it; if you can't work your way out of it, it means you don't completely dislike it. Or simply that you haven't worked your way out of it yet, but you will in the future.

Again, using myself as an example: teaching isn't what I really want to do with my life; I want to write. It's taken me six years to write the novel I want to try to sell, and now it will take me more years to sell it and write another novel or two or three so that I can quit teaching and be a writer. But I would rather have been a teacher for those seven-plus years than work in an office. So while my path hasn't been the right one, as in the one I want to walk until the end, it has been a path that will lead to the right one -- and it's been the right side path for me to be on. It has to be, because I chose it.

[Athena]

How about Kucinich, is he his own man cutting his own path, or a clone?

[Technosoul]

How about Athena, she is not the product of your mainsteam perception concerning democarcy and so on? And hardly a great example of the norms of a "cloned consciousness". How did that happen in our modern "cookie cutter" world?

Athena - hope you do not mind if I made that comment.

[Milton Bradley]

I definately charted my own path. Not that nobody had never been there before, but I definately made concious decisions to arrive where I am currently. ( Triple negative anybody? )


It was work cutting all of that brush out the way with my machete I must confess.

[Osborn F Enready]

My opinion:

You are yourself when you are born, as a new computer with only a virgin operating system installed on its new hard-drive. Your system is driven by instinct, desire, and necessity at this time, and you are conditioned by time in the womb to expect certain things relating to the physical world.

In my opinion, our idea of "god" could be carried over from the nostalgic cues from voices we heard while we were in the womb.

[harami]

"Who am I" is an old question. You can spend much of your life satisfied with your self knowledge and philosophy, but in an unexpected new stressful situation find yourself doing things you never believed yourself capable of. You may find yourself to be a coward or a courageous person, or someone with a great deal of kindness, e.g.

Your nature (genetics) lays down certain fundamental biases you cannot escape. For example, you may tend to mild optimism or have a musical talent. But, you cannot escape your milieu either. You must react to, and learn from your surroundings. Some of the things you learn there may not be intrinsic to your soul, or, are they?

[Osborn F Enready]

harami said: Some of the things you learn there may not be intrinsic to your soul, or, are they?

Only an individual can answer that question with certainty AND honesty.

[Sarah22]

I think that because the human mind is so complex, there are different personality traits brought to the forefront depending on the situation. Each trait is still part of "you", whether "you" are someone who is fake to those surrounding you, kind, intelligent, etc.