Plato, creation & Quran difference

[Athena]

In the Quran we were told Angels physically created Adam. Adam and Eve lived in heaven. However, after they ate the forbidden fruit, they were sent to earth as a form of punishment

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How many are aware of Plato, a Greek philosopher and the idea that in heaven there is a perfect horse and no horse on earth is as perfect? That is, God created everything in heaven perfectly, but the same thing on earth is slightly less than perfect. Such thinking comes from math, which the Greeks got from Egypt. We can see it in Eygptian thinking, and on the side of the world, at Chaco Canyon, New Mexico, this concept of a godly/heavenly perfection. In Chaco Canyon the people built to represent heaven on earth, using the sun and moon cycles in the construction of their walls and buildings. Humans can imagine perfection, and notice that what we have isn't perfect, and around the world they have struggled to deal with this concept of perfection and reality. A God that can do anything and everything, and then why, since a God can do this, our reality isn't perfect.

Any way, now the Muslim idea that men can be rewarded with virgins makes sense, considering, like Eve, the virgins must be made in heaven. I guess by this belief, all the angles would be made this way, and somehow escaped the punishment of Adam and Eve who sent to earth for punishment. I don't think Christians have a better explanation for angels.

For those who do not know what the bible says, the Torah and Christian bible say God was on earth in a place called Eden, when he made Adam of mud and made Eve from Adam's rib. This story comes from the Sumerian story of many gods and goddess, who lived in the Garden of Eden, like Mount Olympus is where the Greek god lived. But when the Sumerian story was translated by Hebrews, this perfect place of the gods becomes a perfect place for Adam and Eve, and they get thrown out of it when they eat the forbidden fruit.

So the Muslim story is more like Plato's idea of perfection and heaven. The Hebrew translation of the Sumerian story, placing God and Adam and Eve on earth, instead of in heaven. My goodness, this should give us a lot to talk about!

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Athena . How many are aware of Plato, a Greek philosopher and the idea that in heaven there is a perfect horse and no horse on earth is as perfect? That is, God created everything in heaven perfectly, but the same thing on earth is slightly less than perfect. Such thinking comes from math, which the Greeks got from Egypt. We can see it in Eygptian thinking, and on the side of the world, at Chaco Canyon, New Mexico, this concept of a godly/heavenly perfection. In Chaco Canyon the people built to represent heaven on earth, using the sun and moon cycles in the construction of their walls and buildings. Humans can imagine perfection, and notice that what we have isn't perfect, and around the world they have struggled to deal with this concept of perfection and reality. A God that can do anything and everything, and then why, since a God can do this, our reality isn't perfect. Any way, now the Muslim idea that men can be rewarded with virgins makes sense, considering, like Eve, the virgins must be made in heaven. I guess by this belief, all the angles would be made this way, and somehow escaped the punishment of Adam and Eve who sent to earth for punishment. I don't think Christians have a better explanation for angels. For those who do not know what the bible says, the Torah and Christian bible say God was on earth in a place called Eden, when he made Adam of mud and made Eve from Adam's rib. This story comes from the Sumerian story of many gods and goddess, who lived in the Garden of Eden, like Mount Olympus is where the Greek god lived. But when the Sumerian story was translated by Hebrews, this perfect place of the gods becomes a perfect place for Adam and Eve, and they get thrown out of it when they eat the forbidden fruit. So the Muslim story is more like Plato's idea of perfection and heaven. The Hebrew translation of the Sumerian story, placing God and Adam and Eve on earth, instead of in heaven. My goodness, this should give us a lot to talk about!

I think it is a good topic, but it may float by most volvonvoists. The fact that the people who wrote these myths of the origins communicated within the context of the worldview they knew. I would assume they did believe in heaven and the creation stories they wrote about. I sometimes wonder about the imagery of how heaven was viewed. Was it on a seperate plan of existence, another world like ours, but perfect, or some place of perfection where god or gods reside above in the heavens of our earth.

[The_Genius]

I think I got the story a bit mixed up, my apologies. It was Allah who created Adam but a specific angel collected the mud / clay required creating him…

Creation of Man:

In the Holy Quran, it has been mentioned numerous times that Man (Adam) was created from mud / clay. The creation of Adam and Eve took place in heaven but earth existed at the time. As Allah said in the Quran before the creation of man,

Behold! Your lord said to angels: “Verily, I am going to appoint a vicegerent on earth…” (2:30)

After Adam and Eve were created, they were living in heaven. However, they were warned to not to eat the forbidden fruit. There is a difference between the Quranic and Biblical story. According to the Quranic story, both Adam and Eve shared equal blame, not just “eve the temptress” as Bible tells us. Satan told them,

…Your Lord has not forbidden you from drawing near this tree except so that you both might not become angels, or lest you both should become immortal… (7:20)

Adam and Eve failed the test and ate the forbidden fruit. Allah became angry with Adam and Eve and He said,

“Get down, some of you being enemies of one another; and for you there is in the earth an abode and a provision for s fixed time.” He said: “Therein you shall live, and therein you shall die, and from it you shall be brought out.” (7:24-25)

So it is clear that even before the creation of Man, there was an earth. Angels lived in heaven and that is where Adam and Eve were living until they failed the test. They were sent to earth as moral beings as a form of punishment.


Man being created from mud

I think critics (atheists, evolutionists) interpret ‘Man being created from mud’ too literally. However, this can also be explained with the help of little logic. Whether you look at it scientifically or literally, it is common knowledge that humans can not be created from mud since there is a huge difference between a statue of human that is made of mud and a human being.

A statue of human that is made of mud =/ (can not be equal to) A human being.

What is missing from the equation is God’s spirit or more specifically, a soul. Allah said in the Quran,

Remember when your Lord said to the angels: “Verily I shall create man of the essence of black mud fashioned into shape. So when I complete him and breathe My spirit into him, you should fall down to him prostrating.” (15:28-29)

It’s either creationism or evolution, there is no third alternative. Isherwood recently mentioned that, theists like myself oppose scientific discoveries. Given the fact I am interested in both science and theology, his opinion cannot be true. I don’t oppose scientific discoveries. Well, in my opinion, since Adam and Eve were created in heaven, they are welcome to pay a visit to heaven and carry out scientific investigations regarding creation.

The reason I prefer creationism over evolution is not because I’m a Muslim. Evolution has roots in ancient Greek / Egyptian materialist philosophies that are outdated. Because the idea that matter, more importantly lifeless matters, created life (or soul) is ludicrous. There is scientific evidence that 'matter' is a mere perception of our mind. Now if matter is a perception of our mind, there is zero possibility that it can create life or soul.

[another day]

Oh really, care to point out the scientific evidence that matter is a perception of our mind? Such a theory is impossible by definition. Science uses empirical observation to make and prove theories. By saying that everything is just a perception of our mind, you are discounting the use of Science in ANY WAY, and therefore cannot prove it with that.

[Athena]

Quote by: shunyadragon I think it is a good topic, but it may float by most volvonvoists. The fact that the people who wrote these myths of the origins communicated within the context of the worldview they knew. I would assume they did believe in heaven and the creation stories they wrote about. I sometimes wonder about the imagery of how heaven was viewed. Was it on a seperate plan of existence, another world like ours, but perfect, or some place of perfection where god or gods reside above in the heavens of our earth.

I reeeeallly like your question!:)

Can we start with the concept that earth is our mother? This clearly is not a God separate from earth, nor separate from ourselves. The Genius and others seem to assume the earth was without life, but that a God put life on a dead planet, but this is not always the way people thought, and it may not be correct. Say life come with the planet and she is our mother. I like that idea.

As humans evolved bureaucracies, it seem they also imagined the creative forces were many instead of just one mother. Although these gods were immortal, they are earth bond. Can you access pictures of Egyptian deities? If so, you will notice they are funny animal/human things. The earthly forces of nature were divided into gods with specific areas of responsibility like bureaucrats.

The nomadic Hebrews seem to have picked up ideas as they moved from place to place. One place was the land of Canaan and the had many gods as did many early people. In semitic languages El is a generic name for "god" or 'deity', and El was also name of the chiefof the pantheon in Canaan. Jacobs name is changed to Israel- this is a combination of a semitic word that means "striving" with the word for god. This is the beginning of the Israelites, the people who have a covenant with God.

The faith of Abraham was not so different from the rest of the Canaanite population but was more of a father, authoritarian figure. He was less forbidding than the storm god who headed many Mesopotamian and Anatolian pantheons, and less capricious than the fertility gods of the of the same regions, who might cause the soil to dry and the flocks to go barren. The Hebrews paternal god was directly concerned with their welfare, which the gods associated with natural forces, were not. See the shift?

The Hebrew god went through Egypt remember, and didn't give them the ten commandments until the Exodus from Egypt, AFTER, an Egyptian pharoah had attempted to force Egyptians to worship one, and only one God. Yipes, I am writing a book and better stop, although there is much to be said, as this god was a sun God, a shift from earthly natural forces to a heavenly force.

[gallo]

Quote by: Athena Any way, now the Muslim idea that men can be rewarded with virgins makes sense, considering, like Eve, the virgins must be made in heaven.

And I wonder about this. In my experience, sex with virgins is less than the best. If sexual heaven is to be desired, I wonder why the Koran doesn't give each man 72 whores who know how to please a man. Of course, the whole idea just reveals how ludacris Islam is. Which is not to say that Christianity is any less ludacris.

[Boetie]

Why are the Gnostics always left out of discussions. They were very close to Platos perfect other world and this world as an imperfect copy of the perfect world.

The Plato version goes against the Hebrew version as the Hebrew version has God saying that his created world is perfect. Note the created world of the Hebrews refers to the material world of which we live in.

Because this world is imperfect it would stand to reason that only an imperfect God could create an imperfect world. This reasoning makes sense and that is why the Apostle Paul warned his followers to stay away from those who reason. Was Paul referring to Gnostics?

The Adam and Eve story is also reversed. Unlike the Hebrew version in which the serpent was the bad guy the Gnostic version makes the serpent out to be the good guy and God as the bad guy and the reason God did not want Adam and Eve to eat was because he wanted them to stay ignorant. Eating the apple was man's way of escaping the darkness that the bad God put man in.

[Athena]

The Genius, do you wonder what God made angels out of? Why would a God need an angel to get mud to make humans? Why make humans any differently from all the angels?

Does it matter to you at all that Abraham beings in Ur. Ur had been a Sumerian city, and much of the bible seems influenced by Sumerian stories, especially a god making a man out of mud and the flood story.

Does your culture have anything like our game of telephone? It is a children's game. The children stand in a line holding hands. The first child whispers a message to the next, and the child passes it on, and so on until the last child says out loud the message. The message is usually very different when the last child says it.

I know religious people want to believe a special being cares for them personally, and we can know of this being, because he personally talked to a few human beings, like Adam and Eve, Moses and Jesus, or had angels do the talking for him. Some like to believe their religious leaders or kings have a special relationship with this God, and some like to believe God speaks directly to them. But what if, humans always did what we do today. That is talk with each other about the stories they hear and what makes sense to them. What if everything known of God is like the children's game of telephone?

Have you ever been consumed with the creative process of writing, so that time seems to stand still and you feel no hunger. Have you ever felt at such moments that you are inspired? People have honestly believed God was writing through them at such moments. I know a man who felt sure he was inspired by God when he wrote his book, and he was terribly disappointed when no one else thought his book was inspired by God. In fact I know another man who is also having this experience and he has been wrapped up in writing his book for over a year now. Human beings have such experience. They are not abnormal or extra ordinary. Back to the question, why a God want to make humans out of mud, when he can make beings without mud? Why would this god do things the way a more primitive god did them?

[Athena]

Quote by: Boetie Why are the Gnostics always left out of discussions. They were very close to Platos perfect other world and this world as an imperfect copy of the perfect world. The Plato version goes against the Hebrew version as the Hebrew version has God saying that his created world is perfect. Note the created world of the Hebrews refers to the material world of which we live in. Because this world is imperfect it would stand to reason that only an imperfect God could create an imperfect world. This reasoning makes sense and that is why the Apostle Paul warned his followers to stay away from those who reason. Was Paul referring to Gnostics? The Adam and Eve story is also reversed. Unlike the Hebrew version in which the serpent was the bad guy the Gnostic version makes the serpent out to be the good guy and God as the bad guy and the reason God did not want Adam and Eve to eat was because he wanted them to stay ignorant. Eating the apple was man's way of escaping the darkness that the bad God put man in.

Thank you so much for your contribution. I don't write of Gnostic ideas, because I don't know them. It is interesting you point out the paradox of a perfect God creating an imperfect reality. Evidently the Genius thinks this is because earth is place to punish Adam and Eve. I had forgotten our bible says God created a perfect place for us. This whole line of arguement reminds of a badly abused child, worshipping his parents and believing it is his fault they abuse him.

Since I am convinced the Sumerians wrote the first story very differently and the Hebrews changed it in the translation, I am not overly interested in any beliefs that come after the distortion of the Sumerian story as possible truth.
I think the scientific explanation of creation is truth. This doesn't mean there is no God, it just means the God of Abraham is not an accurate explanation of God and our being. I like Kuldeep's understand of God better.

[The_Genius]

Quote by: another day Oh really, care to point out the scientific evidence that matter is a perception of our mind? Such a theory is impossible by definition. Science uses empirical observation to make and prove theories. By saying that everything is just a perception of our mind, you are discounting the use of Science in ANY WAY, and therefore cannot prove it with that.

Read...

The Secret Beyond Matter

[The_Genius]

Quote by: Athena The Genius, do you wonder what God made angels out of? Why would a God need an angel to get mud to make humans? Why make humans any differently from all the angels?

Angels are made of light. Angels are different because they are Allah's obedient servants. They never make mistakes or disobey Allah. They do not have free will.

In the Quran, angels actually protested Allah's decision to create Adam since they thought they were obedient enough to serve Allah. Allah replied, "you don't know what I know."

Does it matter to you at all that Abraham beings in Ur. Ur had been a Sumerian city, and much of the bible seems influenced by Sumerian stories, especially a god making a man out of mud and the flood story.

I know. Jews and Christians are people of earlier revelations. Allah emphasized in the Quran that humans actually distorted divine texts such as Torah and Bible and as a result, those texts became myths. Because those stories were mainly spread orally for centuries, which affected their authenticity. However, Allah also said that it is His duty to make sure Quran does not get distorted. Glory to Him, Quran has remained unchanged since it's revelation. It's stories are much, much more reliable than versions that exist in the Torah. Flood, Exodus for example.

Does your culture have anything like our game of telephone? It is a children's game. The children stand in a line holding hands. The first child whispers a message to the next, and the child passes it on, and so on until the last child says out loud the message. The message is usually very different when the last child says it.

No, we prefer sports such as cricket and football over games.

I know religious people want to believe a special being cares for them personally, and we can know of this being, because he personally talked to a few human beings, like Adam and Eve, Moses and Jesus, or had angels do the talking for him. Some like to believe their religious leaders or kings have a special relationship with this God, and some like to believe God speaks directly to them. But what if, humans always did what we do today. That is talk with each other about the stories they hear and what makes sense to them. What if everything known of God is like the children's game of telephone?

Well, I don't know whether God speaks to Kings or religious leaders. What if, God did speak to Prophets?

Have you ever been consumed with the creative process of writing, so that time seems to stand still and you feel no hunger. Have you ever felt at such moments that you are inspired? People have honestly believed God was writing through them at such moments. I know a man who felt sure he was inspired by God when he wrote his book, and he was terribly disappointed when no one else thought his book was inspired by God. In fact I know another man who is also having this experience and he has been wrapped up in writing his book for over a year now. Human beings have such experience. They are not abnormal or extra ordinary. Back to the question, why a God want to make humans out of mud, when he can make beings without mud? Why would this god do things the way a more primitive god did them?

Had it ever cross your mind, that if there was no truth in Abrahamic religions, these religions would have been discarded by people of the 21st century? No matter how many times you see the Abrahamic religions in the same light as Greek / Sumerian mythology, you cannot deny that those ancient religions died long ago. Why? Because there was no truth in them and people could see through those man-made religions. The same does not apply to Abrahamic religions... Unlike Greek mythology, people will believe in Allah / God / Elohim for years to come. Truth always prevails.

[arielmessenger]

"Allah emphasized in the Quran that humans actually distorted divine texts such as Torah and Bible and as a result, those texts became myths. Because those stories were mainly spread orally for centuries, which affected their authenticity. However, Allah also said that it is His duty to make sure Quran does not get distorted. Glory to Him, Quran has remained unchanged since it's revelation. It's stories are much, much more reliable than versions that exist in the Torah. Flood, Exodus for example."

"Adam"? "Flood-Noah"? "Exodus"? These are myths Muhammad accepted as true history.

As Athena points to, there's a good chance that Hebrew monotheism and many religious concepts within Judaism are makeovers of Egyptian ideas, e.g. the Ten Commandments being found in the Egyptian Book of the Dead, e.g circumcision, e.g the idea of a separate race of priests.

And it is true that when animals and women were taken out of representation of the Godhead, these beings have suffered accordingly in human treatment where God is a Man and acts like one in all respects save human form.

[arielmessenger]

Athena, what do you think about my prophesy bearing news of a restoration of the Holy Family with God the Father and the Great Goddess once again united with Son and Daughter themselves becoming wedded in hierogamos? This is the vision God has given me and I act upon it, having surrendered to the will of EL Elyon as communicated to me through His heavenly messenger, Ari-el, Messenger of Peace, Angel of Jerusalem.

What do you know of the satanic verses that Muhammad thought Satan fooled him with? These verses now left out of the Quran are coming back to haunt Muslims because they point to the "deficiency" in Muhammad's conception of the Godhead, the same deficiency found in all the traditional Abrahamic religions save Gnostic Christianity, the only one where the Feminine face of God is still honored.

[Alive]

Athena, your ideas intrigue me, but I think a lot of them are extremely tenuous.

1. Which Sumerian story in particular do you think the Biblical Adam and Eve story comes from?
2. Do you have any evidence at all that Biblical monotheism is related to Akhenaten's "monotheism"? It's a nice idea, I've heard it proposed before, but it seems to lack any kind of direct evidence whatsoever. Moreover, there doesn't seem to be much connection between Aten as god and the biblical god as god.
3. I believe the 72 virgins thing is a myth.

[arielmessenger]

Freud held a theory that Judaic monotheism originated with Egyptian monotheism under Pharaoh Akhenaton. True, there is no direct links except timing and place.

Here's a scenario:

The desert region produces people used to fierce territorial fights over waterholes. Waterhole fights become to be recognized as religious warfare between many gods and one god, the god who controls the water at the waterhole with his man the fiercest around. City life reinforces this One God approach, one City, one God, vs. countryside, many gods. As cities become most important in human social life, the one god idea slowly but surely overcomes the polytheistic nature gods of the countryside. Monotheistic ideas gain ground as cities dominate social life more and more.

But Akhenaton's monotheistic revolt is too early and his new religion fails and after his death Egyptian priests reestablish the traditional Egyptian polytheistic religion. The monotheistic priesthood established by Ahkenaton is forced to flee. They meet up with disgruntled Israelite workers working for Egyptians who also have their eye on the Canaanite disintegration after the conquest of Egyptian Pharaoh Tutmoses III. This may be the Median desert tribal connection between the two groups: Egyptians and Israelites. The two groups hatch a plan to begin a new group of Israelites under a new Egyptianized religious hierarchy, i.e. these Israelites perhaps with exiles from Akhenaton and the earlier Hyksos dynasties.

The Canaanite top god, EL, is subsumed into the Israelite tribal god, Yahweh. Israelites are to form a "nation of priests", like the Pharaohs were a priestly aristocracy separate from common Egyptians. Circumcision, established in Egypt, would be the mark of the new Israelite priestly group. The Ten Commandments based on verses found in the Egyptian Book of the Dead (or so I've read--haven't confirmed this) Other Canaanite and Mesopotamian stories are reworked to fit Israelite tribal history and point to Israel as God's special creation.

[Athena]

Quote by: The_Genius Angels are made of light. Angels are different because they are Allah's obedient servants. They never make mistakes or disobey Allah. They do not have free will. In the Quran, angels actually protested Allah's decision to create Adam since they thought they were obedient enough to serve Allah. Allah replied, "you don't know what I know." I know. Jews and Christians are people of earlier revelations. Allah emphasized in the Quran that humans actually distorted divine texts such as Torah and Bible and as a result, those texts became myths. Because those stories were mainly spread orally for centuries, which affected their authenticity. However, Allah also said that it is His duty to make sure Quran does not get distorted. Glory to Him, Quran has remained unchanged since it's revelation. It's stories are much, much more reliable than versions that exist in the Torah. Flood, Exodus for example. No, we prefer sports such as cricket and football over games. Well, I don't know whether God speaks to Kings or religious leaders. What if, God did speak to Prophets? Had it ever cross your mind, that if there was no truth in Abrahamic religions, these religions would have been discarded by people of the 21st century? No matter how many times you see the Abrahamic religions in the same light as Greek / Sumerian mythology, you cannot deny that those ancient religions died long ago. Why? Because there was no truth in them and people could see through those man-made religions. The same does not apply to Abrahamic religions... Unlike Greek mythology, people will believe in Allah / God / Elohim for years to come. Truth always prevails.

I am sorry but I really do not believe people will continue to have faith in religions built on myths. Mohammed did not get his stories from angels. He got them from humans, and as the humans before put his own twist on the stories. We can discuss Mohammed and Islam sanely, but arguing over something that is not tangible, such as a concept of God, is not sane. It is crazy making. Like who was the news reporter in heaven taking down notes when Allah talked with the angels? This is story telling, not a human experience that actually happened and therefore can be reported. When people can not decern the difference between story telling and an account of a human experiece that is was tangle, it is crazy making. When they think these stories give them right to define God and act on this God's will, as did many believed Bush acted on God's will when he took us to war, and when there is unjust prejudice, segregation, persecution and wars, religions are no longer tolerable. The wrongs of religious people, are bring an end to religious beliefs, because the wrongs are not tolerable. The behavior of some Muslims is a very bad way to represent a God. Bush taking us to war, is also a bad way to represent a God.

[arielmessenger]

What happens when the idealism found in Jesus' teachings is actually carried out by Christians following Jesus' teachings instead of Paul's?

What happens when divine intervention points to universal mutual agreement on peace, love, and harmony as the solution to religious warfare? What happens when God provides a clear Sign and it is no myth but an event that can be seen and judged in our times as evidence of divine intervention? What happens when even atheists discover the spiritual world underpinning all material reality?

[Athena]

Quote by: arielmessenger What happens when the idealism found in Jesus' teachings is actually carried out by Christians following Jesus' teachings instead of Paul's? What happens when divine intervention points to universal mutual agreement on peace, love, and harmony as the solution to religious warfare? What happens when God provides a clear Sign and it is no myth but an event that can be seen and judged in our times as evidence of divine intervention? What happens when even atheists discover the spiritual world underpinning all material reality?

What reality are you talking about?

I am fully confident that human beings can do better than they are doing, and I believe this will happen when they turn to science, and drop a lot of the negative stuff that comes with religions. Our moral foundation comes in our DNA and is part of social animals reality. We are not as bad as the religions have made us out to be. My X son-in-law is in prison because he has done plenty of really bad things. Someone stold my truck last weekend. I am not a Polly Anna who does not know the dark side of our human nature. But I also believe in human beings ability to be noble and do wonderful things, and don't believe a God is going to safe us.

[Athena]

Hey, you all are writing some really good stuff and asking really good questions. I don't know all the answers but love googling for them, or looking through my books.

Right now I have to run, and hope later I will still have energy enough to google and answer questions. You all are making this a really fun discussion. Thanks.

[Athena]

As in other religions there are divisions in Islam. I am afraid The Genius follows the divide I can follow, while the favorable things I say of Islam are because of the influence of Hellenism on the religion and the realy Islamic receptivity to this. Within Islam is the path of reason and then the path of later theologians building on myth and mysticism. If The Genius would return to the earlier path, and question the rightness of a more self serving path of theologenians, we would more agreement. One path relies on science and indepentent judgement, while the other makes people dependent on religious leaders, and this is where the problem comes in.

Sketches in the History of Western Philosophy After the death of the Prophet Muh.ammad in 632, Arab armies rapidly overran Syria and Palestine (638), Egypt (642), the entire Persian Empire (646), and later North Africa (696) and Spain (711). When the Caliphate was established at Baghdad (763), stability, prosperity, and Persian cultural influence led to a great intellectual revival. The Caliph al-Ma'mûn (813-833) became interested in philosophy and mathematics and founded the Dâr al-H.ikmah, or "House of Wisdom," as a center for translation and study. Greek philosophy, medicine, and mathematics were translated into Arabic..... Although the Islamic philosophers in the Greek tradition did very substantial work, some of the more original ideas are found in Islamic theology, called Kalâm ("Talk"). The theologians (mutakallimûn) were not tied to Greek ideas and were concerned to achieve characteristically Islamic answers to traditional religious questions. Kalâm, to be sure, started with a Hellenizing and even Christianizing tendency in the form of the Mu'tazilite school, which defended human free will and regarded God in the Greek sense as reasonable, just, and good. Although this appealed even to the great Caliph al-Ma'mûn, it did not last long. The Caliph al-Mutawakkil (847-861) turned against such Christianizing doctrines. Islamic orthodoxy became the systematization of the omnipotence of God, which eliminated free will [11] and produced novel doctrines like what has been called Islamic "Occasionalism": the idea that every event in the world, including our own acts, and the world itself at every moment in time, is directly caused and created by the agency of God.