Plato, creation & Quran difference

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: gallo And I wonder about this. In my experience, sex with virgins is less than the best. If sexual heaven is to be desired, I wonder why the Koran doesn't give each man 72 whores who know how to please a man. Of course, the whole idea just reveals how ludacris Islam is. Which is not to say that Christianity is any less ludacris.

If ancient religions, their imagery and beliefs are put in context of the limited belief horizon of their world than they to a certain extent all appear rediculous and out of context of a modern world.

From the Moslem perspective 'whores would not make sense, because they would represent corrupted worldly knowledge and materialism.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Athena I reeeeallly like your question!:) Can we start with the concept that earth is our mother? This clearly is not a God separate from earth, nor separate from ourselves. The Genius and others seem to assume the earth was without life, but that a God put life on a dead planet, but this is not always the way people thought, and it may not be correct. Say life come with the planet and she is our mother. I like that idea.

It would not work well to start with this imagery of the 'earth as mother', when starting from the perspective of the ancient worldviews of the Middle East. The belief here was that the earth was the place of the dead, where the wead reside and the journey of the dead takes place. This is true of the Hebrews, Egyptians and most other ancient cosmologies of the ancient Middle East. Though return from the dead and birth had more water images than earth, was often depicted as through the womb of women and via the waters of the earth and springs and rivers. The anthropomorphic lineage and often pictures as the 'return' of the king and lord was via these routes, as finding Moses in the basket on the Nile. The Nile was considered the Divine source of life more so than the earth. Likewise the spring on the Mountain of God on Arayat was symbolic of the source of life, and the burning bush God's law

As humans evolved bureaucracies, it seem they also imagined the creative forces were many instead of just one mother. Although these gods were immortal, they are earth bond. Can you access pictures of Egyptian deities? If so, you will notice they are funny animal/human things. The earthly forces of nature were divided into gods with specific areas of responsibility like bureaucrats.

Early Neolithic societies apparently had both matriarchal and patricarchal roles, and as societies transformed through the bronze, iron age and the empire eras, we have these societies becoming more male dominated, ah . . . as you say bureaucratic, and male gods became dominant as well as a more war like image of God that mirrored the image and role of the ruler.

The nomadic Hebrews seem to have picked up ideas as they moved from place to place. One place was the land of Canaan and the had many gods as did many early people. In semitic languages El is a generic name for "god" or 'deity', and El was also name of the chiefof the pantheon in Canaan. Jacobs name is changed to Israel- this is a combination of a semitic word that means "striving" with the word for god. This is the beginning of the Israelites, the people who have a covenant with God.

Yes, this appears to be true. The trend is from a more diverse polytheistic image of gods that reflected the male and female attributes of their world to making a covenant with one God that would be the most powerful as various nomadic tribes fought for diminishing turf as the Middle East became progressively arid and semi arid the warrior male God became the dominant image of God that determined their fate. The best male warrior God was the one that won the turf battle. The retreat from the increasingly arid world around them was too the fertile valleys of the Tygris-Euphrates, Nile and the Jordon River valleys.

The faith of Abraham was not so different from the rest of the Canaanite population but was more of a father, authoritarian figure. He was less forbidding than the storm god who headed many Mesopotamian and Anatolian pantheons, and less capricious than the fertility gods of the of the same regions, who might cause the soil to dry and the flocks to go barren. The Hebrews paternal god was directly concerned with their welfare, which the gods associated with natural forces, were not. See the shift?

Some of the likely reasons for the shift are outlined above.

The Hebrew god went through Egypt remember, and didn't give them the ten commandments until the Exodus from Egypt, AFTER, an Egyptian pharoah had attempted to force Egyptians to worship one, and only one God. Yipes, I am writing a book and better stop, although there is much to be said, as this god was a sun God, a shift from earthly natural forces to a heavenly force.

The Hebrew God went through both the Egyptian and Baylonian/Persian world, and in some ways relects both. The Hebrew Law strongly reflects a Babylonian/Persian influence and the concepts of the their heavenly force.

The actual concept of the earth as the female God, the mother is actually a very modern concept drawing from many sources like modern interpretations of Celtic/Druid symbolism, and Oriental beliefs and symbolism which I may go into further next.

All these different worldviews of Divine attributes that evolved from the perspective of our Primal Neolithic ancestors reflect their interpretation of their relationships to theworld around them. Today we have added more layers rationalizing a worldview with a potentially greater vision. In this world we probably have teo choices. (1) All these worldviews are just interpretations of a natural world that simply exists. (2) All these worldviews reflect a human view of a 'Source', some call God, that represents some sort of reality in each human worldview.

The view that any single ancient worldview represents the 'Truth' is 'absurd' if not ludicrous as another poster aserted.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Athena I reeeeallly like your question!:) Can we start with the concept that earth is our mother? This clearly is not a God separate from earth, nor separate from ourselves. The Genius and others seem to assume the earth was without life, but that a God put life on a dead planet, but this is not always the way people thought, and it may not be correct. Say life come with the planet and she is our mother. I like that idea.

It would not work well to start with this imagery of the 'earth as mother', when starting from the perspective of the ancient worldviews of the Middle East. The belief here was that the earth was the place of the dead, where the wead reside and the journey of the dead takes place. This is true of the Hebrews, Egyptians and most other ancient cosmologies of the ancient Middle East. Though return from the dead and birth had more water images than earth, was often depicted as through the womb of women and via the waters of the earth and springs and rivers. The anthropomorphic lineage and often pictures as the 'return' of the king and lord was via these routes, as finding Moses in the basket on the Nile. The Nile was considered the Divine source of life more so than the earth. Likewise the spring on the Mountain of God on Arayat was symbolic of the source of life, and the burning bush God's law

As humans evolved bureaucracies, it seem they also imagined the creative forces were many instead of just one mother. Although these gods were immortal, they are earth bond. Can you access pictures of Egyptian deities? If so, you will notice they are funny animal/human things. The earthly forces of nature were divided into gods with specific areas of responsibility like bureaucrats.

Early Neolithic societies apparently had both matriarchal and patricarchal roles, and as societies transformed through the bronze, iron age and the empire eras, we have these societies becoming more male dominated, ah . . . as you say bureaucratic, and male gods became dominant as well as a more war like image of God that mirrored the image and role of the ruler.

The nomadic Hebrews seem to have picked up ideas as they moved from place to place. One place was the land of Canaan and the had many gods as did many early people. In semitic languages El is a generic name for "god" or 'deity', and El was also name of the chiefof the pantheon in Canaan. Jacobs name is changed to Israel- this is a combination of a semitic word that means "striving" with the word for god. This is the beginning of the Israelites, the people who have a covenant with God.

Yes, this appears to be true. The trend is from a more diverse polytheistic image of gods that reflected the male and female attributes of their world to making a covenant with one God that would be the most powerful as various nomadic tribes fought for diminishing turf as the Middle East became progressively arid and semi arid the warrior male God became the dominant image of God that determined their fate. The best male warrior God was the one that won the turf battle. The retreat from the increasingly arid world around them was too the fertile valleys of the Tygris-Euphrates, Nile and the Jordon River valleys.

The faith of Abraham was not so different from the rest of the Canaanite population but was more of a father, authoritarian figure. He was less forbidding than the storm god who headed many Mesopotamian and Anatolian pantheons, and less capricious than the fertility gods of the of the same regions, who might cause the soil to dry and the flocks to go barren. The Hebrews paternal god was directly concerned with their welfare, which the gods associated with natural forces, were not. See the shift?

Some of the likely reasons for the shift are outlined above.

The Hebrew god went through Egypt remember, and didn't give them the ten commandments until the Exodus from Egypt, AFTER, an Egyptian pharoah had attempted to force Egyptians to worship one, and only one God. Yipes, I am writing a book and better stop, although there is much to be said, as this god was a sun God, a shift from earthly natural forces to a heavenly force.

The Hebrew God went through both the Egyptian and Baylonian/Persian world, and in some ways relects both. The Hebrew Law strongly reflects a Babylonian/Persian influence and the concepts of the their heavenly force.

The actual concept of the earth as the female God, the mother is actually a very modern concept drawing from many sources like modern interpretations of Celtic/Druid symbolism, and Oriental beliefs and symbolism which I may go into further next.

Heaven or heavens seemed to be set asside as a place for God or Gods that seemed to reside or exist in various ways relating to the earthly world and underworld.

All these different worldviews of Divine attributes that evolved from the perspective of our Primal Neolithic ancestors reflect their interpretation of their relationships to theworld around them. Today we have added more layers rationalizing a worldview with a potentially greater vision. In this world we probably have teo choices. (1) All these worldviews are just interpretations of a natural world that simply exists. (2) All these worldviews reflect a human view of the attributes of a 'Source', some call God, that represents some sort of reality in each human worldview.

The view that any single ancient worldview represents the 'Truth' is 'absurd' if not ludicrous as another poster aserted.

[Alive]

Quote by: arielmessenger Freud held a theory that Judaic monotheism originated with Egyptian monotheism under Pharaoh Akhenaton.

Yes, I know. Freud held a lot of theories. The vast majority of historians studying the period think this theory is false. As do I, given the complete lack of similarity between Aten and Yahweh on anything but the monotheism thing.

Your scenario doesn't really make sense:

--Egyptians weren't fighting over waterholes, Egyptians used the Nile for water, which doesn't have the same kind of centralized resource dynamic
--One city/one god sort of makes sense, as there certaintly seems to be gods specifically associated with specific cities. But monotheism just doesn't seem to have ever developed organically by a city denying the gods of all other cities, as far as I know. Most cities recognized even gods of completely different cultures. Monotheism tended to be imposed from above on the "nation" level in both the case of Akhen and the Israelites--from the kings in one case and the priests/prophets in the other, with stiff opposition from more decentralized forces and the general populace.
--It just doesn't make sense to me that the priests of Akhen would take just one idea from Egypt--monotheism--and absolutely everything else from Cannanite/general Sumerian culture.

At best, there is virtually no evidence in favor of the Aten monotheism-->Yahweh monotheism hypothesis, at worst there is very much contrary evidence.

[arielmessenger]

Quote by: Alive Yes, I know. Freud held a lot of theories. The vast majority of historians studying the period think this theory is false. As do I, given the complete lack of similarity between Aten and Yahweh on anything but the monotheism thing. Your scenario doesn't really make sense: --Egyptians weren't fighting over waterholes, Egyptians used the Nile for water, which doesn't have the same kind of centralized resource dynamic --One city/one god sort of makes sense, as there certaintly seems to be gods specifically associated with specific cities. But monotheism just doesn't seem to have ever developed organically by a city denying the gods of all other cities, as far as I know. Most cities recognized even gods of completely different cultures. Monotheism tended to be imposed from above on the "nation" level in both the case of Akhen and the Israelites--from the kings in one case and the priests/prophets in the other, with stiff opposition from more decentralized forces and the general populace. --It just doesn't make sense to me that the priests of Akhen would take just one idea from Egypt--monotheism--and absolutely everything else from Cannanite/general Sumerian culture. At best, there is virtually no evidence in favor of the Aten monotheism-->Yahweh monotheism hypothesis, at worst there is very much contrary evidence.

Where did the priests of Akhenaton go? What happened to the Hyksos Pharaohs? Where did Israelites get the idea of monotheism? Coincidence that Egypt began it and Israelites were among the workers of Egypt? Circumcision? Where did this come from? Where did the Ten Commandments come from? Amen, where did this Egyptian god word come from in Hebrew usage? "Moses"? when there were many "Moses" Egyptian names? e.g Kamose, Tutmoses, etc.?

Hebrew Exodus story tells of plundering Egypt but maybe what was plundered were ideas. Religions do not develop in a vacuum. They borrow concepts from older religions and other religious ideas that have become mixed in with tribal or city or cultural histories.

[pikatore]

Quote by: arielmessenger What happens when the idealism found in Jesus' teachings is actually carried out by Christians following Jesus' teachings instead of Paul's? What happens when divine intervention points to universal mutual agreement on peace, love, and harmony as the solution to religious warfare? What happens when God provides a clear Sign and it is no myth but an event that can be seen and judged in our times as evidence of divine intervention? What happens when even atheists discover the spiritual world underpinning all material reality?

Then I sprout a pair of extra legs and spontaneously combust.

[Athena]

Quote by: shunyadragon It would not work well to start with this imagery of the 'earth as mother', when starting from the perspective of the ancient worldviews of the Middle East. The belief here was that the earth was the place of the dead, where the wead reside and the journey of the dead takes place. This is true of the Hebrews, Egyptians and most other ancient cosmologies of the ancient Middle East. Though return from the dead and birth had more water images than earth, was often depicted as through the womb of women and via the waters of the earth and springs and rivers. The anthropomorphic lineage and often pictures as the 'return' of the king and lord was via these routes, as finding Moses in the basket on the Nile. The Nile was considered the Divine source of life more so than the earth. Likewise the spring on the Mountain of God on Arayat was symbolic of the source of life, and the burning bush God's law Early Neolithic societies apparently had both matriarchal and patricarchal roles, and as societies transformed through the bronze, iron age and the empire eras, we have these societies becoming more male dominated, ah . . . as you say bureaucratic, and male gods became dominant as well as a more war like image of God that mirrored the image and role of the ruler. Yes, this appears to be true. The trend is from a more diverse polytheistic image of gods that reflected the male and female attributes of their world to making a covenant with one God that would be the most powerful as various nomadic tribes fought for diminishing turf as the Middle East became progressively arid and semi arid the warrior male God became the dominant image of God that determined their fate. The best male warrior God was the one that won the turf battle. The retreat from the increasingly arid world around them was too the fertile valleys of the Tygris-Euphrates, Nile and the Jordon River valleys. Some of the likely reasons for the shift are outlined above. The Hebrew God went through both the Egyptian and Baylonian/Persian world, and in some ways relects both. The Hebrew Law strongly reflects a Babylonian/Persian influence and the concepts of the their heavenly force. The actual concept of the earth as the female God, the mother is actually a very modern concept drawing from many sources like modern interpretations of Celtic/Druid symbolism, and Oriental beliefs and symbolism which I may go into further next. All these different worldviews of Divine attributes that evolved from the perspective of our Primal Neolithic ancestors reflect their interpretation of their relationships to theworld around them. Today we have added more layers rationalizing a worldview with a potentially greater vision. In this world we probably have teo choices. (1) All these worldviews are just interpretations of a natural world that simply exists. (2) All these worldviews reflect a human view of a 'Source', some call God, that represents some sort of reality in each human worldview. The view that any single ancient worldview represents the 'Truth' is 'absurd' if not ludicrous as another poster aserted.

I am so pleased to discuss something so interesting with someone who knows so much. Moments like this is calls me back to the discussions.

You throw in a totally fascinating concept, the earth is the place of the dead. Hades is a place of the dead. But the concept earth as a place of the dead insteand of life, never gripped my consciousness as your explanation has. No wonder the successful turn away from the earth mother.

I am so excited, because now I more clearly percieve a shift from earth gods and goddess who lived on earth, to a god in the sky, and The Genius's statement that God's material creation is mortal. This is also a shift away from cyclical thinking, where things return to earth and become new life. Occasionally a life giving goddess is also seen as a goddess of death, such as Kali.

I think if you do more research, you will find worship of the mother came before more complex thoughts of gods. This would be before the invaders when villages were open and people painted pictures of nature instead of war. The palaces were simple with small throwns, indicating a woman sat in them and received gifts, possibly representing the great mother. The holiest places were in a nature where a natural hole or cave occurred. To be closer to God meant to enter the earth, before it meant to climb a mountian, and then became a god in the sky even more distance from us.

[Athena]

Quote by: arielmessenger Where did the priests of Akhenaton go? What happened to the Hyksos Pharaohs? Where did Israelites get the idea of monotheism? Coincidence that Egypt began it and Israelites were among the workers of Egypt? Circumcision? Where did this come from? Where did the Ten Commandments come from? Amen, where did this Egyptian god word come from in Hebrew usage? "Moses"? when there were many "Moses" Egyptian names? e.g Kamose, Tutmoses, etc.? Hebrew Exodus story tells of plundering Egypt but maybe what was plundered were ideas. Religions do not develop in a vacuum. They borrow concepts from older religions and other religious ideas that have become mixed in with tribal or city or cultural histories.

First, I want to address your question about following Jesus instead of Paul.
Excellent question. Would you start a thread for it? It could also include changes in Judism and Islam that shifted from simple faiths to theocracies that empowered religious eletes.

Israelites followed Moses out of Egypt around 1225 B.C. Ur, the city of Abraham, was abandoned in 400 B.C. However, long before, this power had shifted from Sumerians to Babalonia. Abraham traveled with his father to the city of Harna in Mesopotamia (now Turkey). When his father died, he took his people to Cannan (this became Palistine and did contain Israel). Israel being Jacob, and meaning struggling God, and becoming the name of the place, and Israelites the name of these people, from this line. Unfortunately, my encylopedia is not giving me the important dates.

Akhenaten ruled in 1353-1335 B.C.. This would be more than a century before Moses led his people from Egypt. Not that many generations inbetween. And what happened to Akhenaten's holy city and his values, cause some scholars to believe there is an important relationship between Hebrews and the faithful followers of the one God. A lone creator, Re, the sun god, manifested by the Aten, a disk that emanated the life-giving rays of the sun. This was not a new God, but the result of Akhenaten's grandfather researching the achives to find the true God. Re was an old concept of a diety.

Akhenaten built a holy city and forced the preisthood of old gods to go underground. He also made other decisions that almost destroyed Egypt, so when he and his wife died, the people destroyed his holy city and buried it. They meant to wipe it out of memory, but by burying it, they preserved it. They also scatched Akhenaten's name off all records, so until his holy was found, there was no memory of him. Okay-

His holy city was complete and self sufficient. You can bet, when the military and old priest lead people, rose against this hated pharoah, the faithful people of this city, had to go under ground. Later, Moses leads people out of Egypt who share Akhenaten's values of family and learning and have only one God. Nomadic people who had been associated with the worpship of many gods, and carry the influence of other civiliations, are led by Moses to declare loyality to one God and to declare all other gods false. Now, go figure. How do you think this happened? How do you think these people's story of creation, just happens to be like the Sumerian story, minus all but one God and carries other cultural influences, came to their religious conclusions? Is it possible these people were just human beings like you and me, trying to make sense out of all the beliefs?

[Athena]

To get this thread back on subject, it needs to be said, the Greek gods had their own lives. Cities had their patron god or goddess. Athena was the patron goddess of Athens. Patron gods and goddess protected the people who worship them. They are not universal as the God of Abraham came to be.

However, the Greeks studied math in Egypt, and Egyptians were annal about math and order. Like the whole universe would fall apart, or at least Egypt would fall, if the pharoahs didn't keep things in this mathematical perfect order. Like Plato's perfectism. There is perfect order. Earth is not perfectly ordered, but humans can ward off evil and disaster by understanding order and maintaining it. This is a different force from a God who rules by whim, as the God of Abraham rules by whim.

Judism, Christianity and unfortunately, Islam too, are built on the concepts evolved out of the God of Abraham, a father type God who has favorite children and gets angry and can be jealous and revengeful. But added in with other concepts, and this humanized father God who is no more perfect than Zues, gets tied up with ideas of perfection. Like heaven, angels and saint are perfect, and it was believed the heavenly bodies were perfect orbs. Galio was percuted by the church, because he looked through his telescope and noticed those orbs are not perfect. This was a disasterous discovery for the church that had completely neglected math and science, and built up a false belief of reality. I am learning the Muslims did an interesting job of trying to mix reason with religion.

[Alive]

Quote by: arielmessenger Where did the priests of Akhenaton go? What happened to the Hyksos Pharaohs? Where did Israelites get the idea of monotheism? Coincidence that Egypt began it and Israelites were among the workers of Egypt? Circumcision? Where did this come from? Where did the Ten Commandments come from? Amen, where did this Egyptian god word come from in Hebrew usage? "Moses"? when there were many "Moses" Egyptian names? e.g Kamose, Tutmoses, etc.?

Who knows where the priests of Akhenaton went? Did he even have very many? It seems he wasn't very happy with the priests of Amon! By the way, where did the priests of Amon go in the time of Akenaton? Where did the Roman priests go when Constantine converted Rome to Christianity? It's not a giant problem. Maybe they got other jobs?

Of course its true that religions "borrow concepts from older religions." But there is also innovation, obviously. You just think the innovation may have come from the Egyptians only, whereas I think the Israelite innovation was independent of the Akhenaton's. I also don't think that monotheism was all that big of an innovation, and there were probably other monotheistic concepts predating both Akhenaton and Israel which have been lost to history (polytheism possibly came out of monotheism rather than the other way around). The real innovation was all the other stuff that went along with the Israelite monotheism.

As for circumcision...the Egyptians were not the only other culture to practice it, and only the priests of Egypt practiced it, while all Israelites were supposed to. In any case, even if the Israelites did get the idea of circumcision from the Egyptans, is that really evidence that they also got the idea of monotheism from Egypt? Not only priests of Aten were circumcised!

Where in Egyptian sources exactly do you see similarities to the ten commandments?

Yes, Moses is an Egyptian name; the Bible even claims he was named by an Egyptian. Don't see how that acts as supporting evidence.

And what do the Hykos pharohs have to do with this?

What I'd like is an actual connection between Yahweh as monotheistic god in Isrealite sources and Aten as monotheistic god in Egyptian sources...any kind of similarity between them whatsoever besides monotheism itself. Did Aten demand a covenent with his people? Did Aten demand a stop of idol worship, or was he basically worshipped the same way the other gods were? Did Aten proscribe any new laws whatsoever? Is Yahweh ever associated with the sun? It seems to me that the answers to all these questions is no, and that's why I doubt a connection.

[arielmessenger]

These people interacted with each other as they were close neighbors and the Hebrews (Habiru) worked for the Egyptians. I don't see how they could not have been influenced by Egypt!

And I really do think there is a "desert monotheism" precedent in the water-hole concept where one desert tribal chief rules access to the main water holes. The fight for who controls the Water of Life is based on a fierce struggle in which ONE victor emerges supreme.

I believe Jesus' wisdom about "a house divided" has always been a foundational concept for monotheism to supersede polytheism.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Athena I think if you do more research, you will find worship of the mother came before more complex thoughts of gods. This would be before the invaders when villages were open and people painted pictures of nature instead of war. The palaces were simple with small throwns, indicating a woman sat in them and received gifts, possibly representing the great mother. The holiest places were in a nature where a natural hole or cave occurred. To be closer to God meant to enter the earth, before it meant to climb a mountian, and then became a god in the sky even more distance from us.

Researching legends and mythology of ancient peoples has been along term project for me. I do find the worship of the mother and female Gods in many cultures. In the Oriental cultures it was the early versions of the female Guan Yin, which has evolved into several legendary forms todays a male prince with female attributes to a male/female God, but it is still reveared by many as a Goddess, which was her original identity. Some ancient Neolithic cultures are considered matriarchal, but my assessment of these and other cultures is that they have a more matriarchal/patriarchal nature with both feminine and masculine images and symbols in their carvings and surviving legends and myths that we have as evidence. I have visited the countryside of China many times and seen many traditions of this matriarchal/patriarchal culture still exists along with sacred stones and trees that reflect early primal religious beliefs. Symbolism of the earth, sun, moon and the planets and stars is very much alive with symbolism in these cultures.

I do not think any of these beliefs and the history of religious beliefs detract from the existence of a single 'Source', some call God, but the whole picture of the history of religious beliefs of humanity makes the belief of the culturally moribound Abrahamic male God as portrayed in the Bible is problematic at best and very unlikely, as the One and Only true God for all of humanity.

Actually taking all this evidence as a whole the nature of the relationship between a 'Source', and humanity and the existence we know is potentially a more real and dynamic portrait of God, which represents a balance of feminine and masculine nature and the attributes of all existence we see in our universe.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: arielmessenger These people interacted with each other as they were close neighbors and the Hebrews (Habiru) worked for the Egyptians. I don't see how they could not have been influenced by Egypt! And I really do think there is a "desert monotheism" precedent in the water-hole concept where one desert tribal chief rules access to the main water holes. The fight for who controls the Water of Life is based on a fierce struggle in which ONE victor emerges supreme. I believe Jesus' wisdom about "a house divided" has always been a foundational concept for monotheism to supersede polytheism.

Regardless of your stoic insistence against influence, the evidence shows that there is a distinct relationship between not only Egyptian monotheism and the development of Hebrew religion, but also a strong Babylonian/Persian influence.

What is lacking from the Judeo-Christian argument of exclusivity and superiority is Hebrew records, such as clay tablets, stone stella, and papyrii scrolls before the known records in the Dead Sea scrolls. We have abundant Egyptian and Babylonian records, but no hebrew records whatsoever other than a single silver prayer scroll dating from about 600 BC, I think.

In face of the evidence your claim becomes little more than an assertion.

[shawmutt]

Had it ever cross your mind, that if there was no truth in Abrahamic religions, these religions would have been discarded by people of the 21st century? No matter how many times you see the Abrahamic religions in the same light as Greek / Sumerian mythology, you cannot deny that those ancient religions died long ago. Why? Because there was no truth in them and people could see through those man-made religions. The same does not apply to Abrahamic religions... Unlike Greek mythology, people will believe in Allah / God / Elohim for years to come.

You are incorrectly lumping Abrahamic religions into one belief. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have monotheism and a lot of the same book in common. However, what does Judaism and Islam have to do with the eradication of Greek and Roman religions? People didn't suddenly "come to the light about the errors of their false religion". Christians utilized ruthless persecution as the method of proselytizing and killing off of the ancient Greek and Roman religions. Ruthless persecution was the method of converting Unitarians, to "convince" them that God was not one being, but three. Ruthless persecution was used when Islam became a threat, and there are those among Christians who use it today against Islam--today's Christians are what they are due to war and ruthless persecution (and Paul, who had his own ideas of what Christianity should be, but that's a different debate). Wars are fought, people die, and the conquerer imposes their ideas upon the conquered. It's been happening at least as long as the human written record, and in all probability since the second man was born. Perhaps you can use the excuse of "God's will," but I don't buy it.

Religion is never discarded, but religions are assimilated. Compare the ancient Egyptian god Horus to Jesus. Links can still be found between ancient pagan holidays and Christian celebrations such as Christmas and Easter. Many sacrifices made to Greek and Roman gods still exist today in the form of statues and other works of art. I like what His Holiness the Dalai Lama said--"There needs to be six billion religions for the six billion people of the world!".

[Athena]

Quote by: shawmutt You are incorrectly lumping Abrahamic religions into one belief. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have monotheism and a lot of the same book in common. However, what does Judaism and Islam have to do with the eradication of Greek and Roman religions? People didn't suddenly "come to the light about the errors of their false religion". Christians utilized ruthless persecution as the method of proselytizing and killing off of the ancient Greek and Roman religions. Ruthless persecution was the method of converting Unitarians, to "convince" them that God was not one being, but three. Ruthless persecution was used when Islam became a threat, and there are those among Christians who use it today against Islam--today's Christians are what they are due to war and ruthless persecution (and Paul, who had his own ideas of what Christianity should be, but that's a different debate). Wars are fought, people die, and the conquerer imposes their ideas upon the conquered. It's been happening at least as long as the human written record, and in all probability since the second man was born. Perhaps you can use the excuse of "God's will," but I don't buy it. Religion is never discarded, but religions are assimilated. Compare the ancient Egyptian god Horus to Jesus. Links can still be found between ancient pagan holidays and Christian celebrations such as Christmas and Easter. Many sacrifices made to Greek and Roman gods still exist today in the form of statues and other works of art. I like what His Holiness the Dalai Lama said--"There needs to be six billion religions for the six billion people of the world!".

May I add to this, the elemenation of information. Christians and Moslems both have used the sword to spread their religions. I don't know as much about Moslems as Christians, but Christians burned libraries in Egypt and South America where Aztec libraries were destroyed. Besides burning libraries, they also used economic warfare, refusing to trade with those who were not Christian, caused many to convert. Beyond this is, the witch hunts and other persecutions of those who dared to have other beliefs, wiping European cultures clean of any thoughts that weren't sanctioned by the church. This history is why freedom of speech and religion is so important in the US.


The crusades resulted in crusaders bring back information saved and developed Arabs, leading to the Age of Reason and Enlightenment and return to democracy based on Greek and Roman classics, and esablished in the US where education was modeled after Athens education for well rounded individuals. However, in studying old text, I am impressed with the very strong influence Christianity had over education in the US. I find even modern books often strongly prejudiced by religion.

I thought the failure to teach about Sumer was justified by lack of information, but then realized Sumer has been known for many years. Akhenaten has been known for many years. Our Christian dominated nation has remained selective in what it teaches. It is no wonder so many believe as Christians teach, because even our secular education has been controlled by Christians, except some science has crept into our education. But still the sterility of our education, and therefore, ability to compare and reason, is still a major problem.

I would also say as children want to believe in Santa Claus, adults want to believe what religion teaches. Missionaries go in a teach a religion people want, they do not teach world history and the evolution of religious thought. Only a well understood democracy would spread knowledge of all things, and actually leave people free to draw their own conclusions.

[Athena]

Religion is never discarded, but religions are assimilated. Compare the ancient Egyptian god Horus to Jesus. Links can still be found between ancient pagan holidays and Christian celebrations such as Christmas and Easter. Many sacrifices made to Greek and Roman gods still exist today in the form of statues and other works of art. I like what His Holiness the Dalai Lama said--"There needs to be six billion religions for the six billion people of the world!". __________________

A major way to convert people to Christianity was to give a Christian interpretation to pagan holidays. Suddenly people who never thought of themselves as Christians, found themselves to be Christians. For awhile it was believed everyone knew this God's truth, but for some reason had a slightly different understanding, so the old beliefs were simply corrected. Proving it is in our nature to share these morals and values. Many "pagans" saw the same thing in Christianity as they had been taught, and were easily converted.

Holloween also has a wide spread of history as a pagan celebration from Egypt to northern Europe. The church Christianized this celebration of dead by defining it as All Saints Day.

[arielmessenger]

"I like what His Holiness the Dalai Lama said--"There needs to be six billion religions for the six billion people of the world!"

As a prophesy-bearer of two new religions, one my personal Gnostic Christian religion which I call Biomystical Christianity, and one a new universal religion, God tells me to call the "Religion of Peace", I will say God doesn't stand still and periodically sends in an "up-grade" to further guide humanity towards becoming fully humane beings. This process of course takes its toll on prior revelations now found to be out of date, out of step, with current knowledge and ethical development in society. But that's because spiritual knowledge flows through human minds which aren't perfect even though some have thought so, e.g. Muhmammad.

It should interest those who study religions that a new revelation exists now which connects God Most High, EL Elyon with Wankan Tanka, the Great Mysterious One of the Lakota and the Plains Native American tribes. And the Vision of Christ Josephine connects the Lakota prophesy of the return of White Buffalo Calf Woman with the Spirit of Christ as well as connecting Ptsan Win, the Lakota name for WBCW with Quan Yin, the Goddess of Mercy mentioned above.

The Archetypes are eternal yet their specific manifestations are subject to human interpretations.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: arielmessenger "I like what His Holiness the Dalai Lama said--"There needs to be six billion religions for the six billion people of the world!" As a prophesy-bearer of two new religions, one my personal Gnostic Christian religion which I call Biomystical Christianity, and one a new universal religion, God tells me to call the "Religion of Peace", I will say God doesn't stand still and periodically sends in an "up-grade" to further guide humanity towards becoming fully humane beings. This process of course takes its toll on prior revelations now found to be out of date, out of step, with current knowledge and ethical development in society. But that's because spiritual knowledge flows through human minds which aren't perfect even though some have thought so, e.g. Muhmammad. It should interest those who study religions that a new revelation exists now which connects God Most High, EL Elyon with Wankan Tanka, the Great Mysterious One of the Lakota and the Plains Native American tribes. And the Vision of Christ Josephine connects the Lakota prophesy of the return of White Buffalo Calf Woman with the Spirit of Christ as well as connecting Ptsan Win, the Lakota name for WBCW with Quan Yin, the Goddess of Mercy mentioned above. The Archetypes are eternal yet their specific manifestations are subject to human interpretations.

Nothing new, the Baha'i Faith already did this about 170+ years ago.