effect of education

[Athena]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint Schools don't indoctrinate students, they present one view of information. They are not, and should never be, the end-all be-all of truth. Students should be capable of discovering alternative views and assessing the validity of those views on their own; if school tried to teach every possible view of every possible subject, then people would never get out of class. It amuses me that you can both complain about how schools don't teach enough, and also complain about things they teach that you don't want to learn, like geometry. Do you want the schools to teach more, or less? If you just want the schools to tailor their education specifically to you and your needs, then you need to attend private school or educate yourself; public schools have to reflect the needs of the general populace. I do agree that school should teach with a greater emphasis on thinking and analyzing rather than memorizing a specific set of "facts," but students generally don't want that. Thinking is hard, and memorizing is easy. Their choice is clear.

I sure don't want to make you feel defensive, and unfortunately I do feel like I am trying to walk on egg shells with you. Only an 18 year objected to having to learn geometry. I said learning it would increase ones over all intelligence. Other then than that, I don't think we have talked about subjects learned. I have talked about methods used, and shifting from liberal education to education for technology that is producing products for industry, rather than preparing students for life. I wish you felt curious instead of defensive. May be with another teacher involved we can progress to meaningful discussion of education. Having an international and Muslim point of view, really gives us a great opportunity for meaning discussion!

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Athena Wow, would I love to have lunch with and you and your wife and hear what you have to say about education. How did you come to know of the change in education?

My wife and I went to high school less than 3 miles from each other. I went to Clarkson University, she went to the State University of New York at Potsdam and the Crane School of music.

At her state school, she had the basic courses to fulfill minimum requirements. I proofread all her English papers and checked her Math homework, but her Music and Education work was the real deal.

At Clarkson, there were no general courses. If you had to fulfill a Math requirement, you were taking Math with the Math majors, regardless of your major. Same with every course. I literally had an hour of homework from each class.

That's when we first noticed the struggle to find the balance.

In following years, we noticed kids having to have wheels on their backpack which they pulled behind them like luggage.

Kids feeling the need to participate in EVERY extracurricular activity AND get 4.0 GPA's so they can get into a good college.

There were lots of signs... those were just a few.

Quote by: Athena How have Europeans done things differently?

We learned, when we lived in Germany, that many elementary schools give you a basic education while at the same time finding your aptitudes. Then when you're about 12-14 years old, you pick your career, and the rest of your education focuses you in that career track.

Their nurses have more schooling than many American doctors, and I personally trusted them more than I trusted the American doctors.

Quote by: Athena What do you mean by we have botched up education?

One example is No Child Left Behind.

For the first 5 or 6 years of schooling, teachers have to coddle the kids that are below grade level. The ones at grade level don't get much attention, so they start to fall behind. The smarter ones who breeze through the work aren't challenged and become bored or, even worse, the "bad" kids.

We're too busy trying to bring the struggling students up that we don't free the other kids to learn and be challenged.

Teachers being underpaid so that there are fewer and fewer teachers each year.

Placing such an emphasis on going to a "good college" and not telling kids the truth... that the better method for higher education would be to attend community college for 2 years and get an Associate's Degree, and then transfer into a "good" college if they find they want more education and the higher paying jobs.

Quote by: Athena What can we do about it, considering constitutionally the government is suppose to stay out of education and the citizens are suppose to make the education decisions for their community. Oh, oh, oh, please speak up!

The Federal government can't interfere.

The State governments have the final say in educational matters.

As far as what can be done... I don't know. In America, it's probably too late. So many changes are needed that they would have to be sudden, sweeping, and immediate.

My initial opinion would be to increase teacher pay by 20%.
Lengthen the school day.
Allow students to choose their curriculum "career track."
More magnet/specialty schools.
Less emphasis on overall perfection.

[The_Genius]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint Nah. Creating knowledge all over again is always harder than simply reciting what someone else creates. When people have already learned how to think, of course, then thinking doesn't pose such a challenge -- but our society is not well-equipped to train people how to think. One does not learn ratiocination from watching American Idol and Desperate Housewives.

Nope. Simply memorizing facts isn't really education. Anyone can memorize facts at home and not go to school. Memorization doesn't equip a person with abilities needed to think cirtically and in a creative manner.

[Athena]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint Nah. Creating knowledge all over again is always harder than simply reciting what someone else creates. When people have already learned how to think, of course, then thinking doesn't pose such a challenge -- but our society is not well-equipped to train people how to think. One does not learn ratiocination from watching American Idol and Desperate Housewives.

Quote by The Genius Nope. Simply memorizing facts isn't really education. Anyone can memorize facts at home and not go to school. Memorization doesn't equip a person with abilities needed to think cirtically and in a creative manner.

Here The Genius makes an important point. This has both moral and economic consequences.

Yes, the change meant replacing independent thinking with "group think" and reliance on authority. This is great for the rapid development of technology, but it leads to a very social, politic and economic problem! The change includes replacing lessons for logic with memorization, and what goes with this is an attitude that people are best when the depend on their leaders. That is it gets sheeple, instead of people who can think for themselves. You get authority over the people, instead of a population that will not tolerate authority over them. You get social chaos that demands a police force to keep them in order, because the people can not think though their own moral reasons for being highly moral. Virtually we have reduced the mass to the level of self centered animals who have no concept of the reasoning of civilization.

And the problem is not just moral, but also lack of creativity. If the bridge had not already been invented, it would not be invented today, because we conditioned the masses to rely on authority. The student who can figure out how to resolve a physics problem, but can not explain the theory used, will not pass physics, while all the students who know theory but couldn't resolve the practical, hands on problem, pass and go up the ladder. This is tied to concepts of merit hiring and advancement- where passing a test is more important than things like character and real aptitude. So our most successful auto industries are dying, and countries like Japan kick our butt in world markets, and I expect Indian and China to leave us in the dust soon.
We are overly concerned with imperial information and test scores.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: Athena I sure don't want to make you feel defensive, and unfortunately I do feel like I am trying to walk on egg shells with you. Only an 18 year objected to having to learn geometry. I said learning it would increase ones over all intelligence. Other then than that, I don't think we have talked about subjects learned. I have talked about methods used, and shifting from liberal education to education for technology that is producing products for industry, rather than preparing students for life. I wish you felt curious instead of defensive. May be with another teacher involved we can progress to meaningful discussion of education. Having an international and Muslim point of view, really gives us a great opportunity for meaning discussion!

I don't feel particularly defensive here, though I do admit my feathers get ruffled when people start saying that teachers need to teach better, and that if only they taught what really MATTERED to kids then everything would be fine. It is the attempt to teach only what MATTERS to kids that put us where we are now, at least in part, because what matters to kids, to the majority of kids, is getting a passing grade so they can get a good job. I had this discussion with my students today: I asked why they would want to pass my class without actually learning anything, and they looked at me like I was insane and said, "So you don't have to take it again!" The class, the school, is just a hurdle to be jumped, not something that can really help them to succeed in any way.

I don't believe that the subjects that are learned is the most important point; any academic subject can teach kids how to think if it is taught properly, and none of them will if they are not taught properly. I started a thread 6 months ago or so on what should be taught in schools -- I think you were on hiatus at the time, Athena -- but we got bogged down in whether or not gun safety and marksmanship should be taught. But I'm perfectly willing to discuss what should be taught, within the limits of my knowledge -- as long as my position is clear: in my opinion, it is a society-wide emphasis on the wrong aspects of education that is at fault for our schools' failures, not the schools' indoctrinatory agenda. Kids don't want to learn, their parents don't want them to learn, and many teachers do not want to teach, what is actually important.

Shall we talk about what is actually important? I am interested in hearing a case for certain subjects, especially if they're thinkin' subjects.:)

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: The_Genius Nope. Simply memorizing facts isn't really education. Anyone can memorize facts at home and not go to school. Memorization doesn't equip a person with abilities needed to think cirtically and in a creative manner.

I agree 100%. Now come tell that to all of my students, and explain why they should be taking essay tests instead of multiple-choice tests, and why they should be learning how to use words instead of memorizing their spelling.

[Kuldeep]

effect of education

Quote by: Athena That is, those who believe in God and even those who don't, can agree to kill educated people. Why do you think groups of humans can turn so violently on educated and successful people?

Without going through any other post of this thread, I first of all admit this thread is quite thought proking. My special thanks for opening such a meaningful thread, Athena.

As regards the question you have put, I would say it is "Human Crook Mind's Nature" which plays the whole game. Selfishness, prejudice, lust for power & money, greed, fame, ego...any other bad adjective of human mind can be put here to answer your question.

Now coming to the "effect of education", I would say without education, the very existence of life on earth would have been impossible. Take any specie of animals, every one educates its young ones to become self sufficient to independantly live their life. I wonder, if such education goes down to even micro-organisms as well!!!

Restricting myself to human only, everyone would agree with me mother is the first and father the second teacher of every human right from the day one of its birth. To be simple and short, I would say proper education to make human a human and not inhuman should be given to each and every new comer in the world. Such a proper education would have an effect on world community, Athena wants to have!!!!

Now, if I ask Athena, who educates egg to grow and mutiply after fertilization to get developed into full baby, also who teaches infant of day one to start with to suck nipple of mother's breast; I am sure the question of education and its effect would become more and more confusing!!!!!!:( :)

[Athena]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint I don't feel particularly defensive here, though I do admit my feathers get ruffled when people start saying that teachers need to teach better, and that if only they taught what really MATTERED to kids then everything would be fine. It is the attempt to teach only what MATTERS to kids that put us where we are now, at least in part, because what matters to kids, to the majority of kids, is getting a passing grade so they can get a good job. I had this discussion with my students today: I asked why they would want to pass my class without actually learning anything, and they looked at me like I was insane and said, "So you don't have to take it again!" The class, the school, is just a hurdle to be jumped, not something that can really help them to succeed in any way. I don't believe that the subjects that are learned is the most important point; any academic subject can teach kids how to think if it is taught properly, and none of them will if they are not taught properly. I started a thread 6 months ago or so on what should be taught in schools -- I think you were on hiatus at the time, Athena -- but we got bogged down in whether or not gun safety and marksmanship should be taught. But I'm perfectly willing to discuss what should be taught, within the limits of my knowledge -- as long as my position is clear: in my opinion, it is a society-wide emphasis on the wrong aspects of education that is at fault for our schools' failures, not the schools' indoctrinatory agenda. Kids don't want to learn, their parents don't want them to learn, and many teachers do not want to teach, what is actually important. Shall we talk about what is actually important? I am interested in hearing a case for certain subjects, especially if they're thinkin' subjects.:)

We are having a serious problem. My grandmother was a teacher. I very highly admire teachers. My arguement is not with teachers at all! The problem is not the teachers, but it can be with what they were taught, and it certainly is the system within which they have to work, and the text books they have to use.

Once the decision to teach for technology was made, everyone in the school system was prepared for this purpose, and people don't even know what went before. The concept of education to avoid social problems is lost. How many of your students understand the connection between their liberty and their education? That is something they should have learned when the first learned how to read. By the time students get to you, they should be model students who understand what education has to do with liberty. They sure as blazes shouldn't be looking at you like you are nuts when you ask them why they would want to pass without learning. By third grade they should know better. Are you sure I am your enemy?

Eighty olds who dropped out of school in the 8th grade, had their own successful businesses, and assumed if someone was a bad citizen, that person was ignorant.

Yes, kids think school is just a hurdle to get through, because it is now so impersonal, one size fits all, and if you don't fit you aren't worth a teachers time. This is about funding, why we fund education today, and what the teachers must achieve to get that funding. This is a completely different ball game from teachers being focus on citizenship and helping each child discover what is special about him/her and where s/he will fit in society. I spoke of this before- the village idiot was valuable and it was okay that he wasn't college material. We don't need college educations to be good citizens. We judged people on character, not IQ scores.


Bottom line- what is actually important to teach- the importance of education to our liberty. What it means to live in a democracy and be a good citizen. How many words of virtue do your students know? Do they even know what a virtue is? Can they explain why virtue is synonomous with strength? Without religion, what do they know of morals? What does Socrates and Cicero have to do with moral judgements and being citizens and having liberty? What gives a person value? Might your students be more interested in education if it meant discovering their own personal value?

What subject are you teaching?

[Athena]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint I agree 100%. Now come tell that to all of my students, and explain why they should be taking essay tests instead of multiple-choice tests, and why they should be learning how to use words instead of memorizing their spelling.

I want to cry, because what you have said is so sad. By 8th grade every child should know, in a democracy, the most skills for them to develop are speaking and writing. Why? so they can argue their point of view on all governing decisions that concern them. They should know how to communicate with everyone who represents them in government and how to write lettlers to the editor to pursade others. They should be able to testify at city, county, and state meetings when laws concerning them are considered. DEMOCRACY IS A WAY OF LIFE. Your students should know this before they get to you.

[Athena]

Quote by: Kuldeep effect of education Without going through any other post of this thread, I first of all admit this thread is quite thought proking. My special thanks for opening such a meaningful thread, Athena. As regards the question you have put, I would say it is "Human Crook Mind's Nature" which plays the whole game. Selfishness, prejudice, lust for power & money, greed, fame, ego...any other bad adjective of human mind can be put here to answer your question. Now coming to the "effect of education", I would say without education, the very existence of life on earth would have been impossible. Take any specie of animals, every one educates its young ones to become self sufficient to independantly live their life. I wonder, if such education goes down to even micro-organisms as well!!! Restricting myself to human only, everyone would agree with me mother is the first and father the second teacher of every human right from the day one of its birth. To be simple and short, I would say proper education to make human a human and not inhuman should be given to each and every new comer in the world. Such a proper education would have an effect on world community, Athena wants to have!!!! Now, if I ask Athena, who educates egg to grow and mutiply after fertilization to get developed into full baby, also who teaches infant of day one to start with to suck nipple of mother's breast; I am sure the question of education and its effect would become more and more confusing!!!!!!:( :)

I love your comment- TO TEACH HUMANS TO BE HUMAN. Exactly, that is the most important thing for us to learn. Our streets are full of people who can not bare to be around others, because they do not have good social skills, and this leads to all sorts of social problems. The most effective way of maintianing social order is culture. It is social pressures that separates humans from animals.

We are not so different from other social animals, except we can conceptualize and then treat our abstract concepts like tangleable reality. For example, any thought of a God is an abstract concept, but many religious people think of this abstract concept as a tangleable reality. The importance of mythology is to teach us to be human. Greek mythology is the concepts for civilization, religion is mythology with believers thinking the concept of God is tangleable reality.

However, I think you take an understanding of learning too far. Sucking is an instinct like breathing or peeing. We can gain control over our instinctive responses to stimuli, but we begin with these instinctive responses. Must take further discussion on what it means to be human to another thread as I learned something so exciting last night.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: Athena I want to cry, because what you have said is so sad. By 8th grade every child should know, in a democracy, the most skills for them to develop are speaking and writing. Why? so they can argue their point of view on all governing decisions that concern them. They should know how to communicate with everyone who represents them in government and how to write lettlers to the editor to pursade others. They should be able to testify at city, county, and state meetings when laws concerning them are considered. DEMOCRACY IS A WAY OF LIFE. Your students should know this before they get to you.

You expect a 13 yr old to care about what form of government he ss ruled by? were you ever 13? you can't concieve of anything more oppressive than your parents.

[Athena]

Quote by: Fonceai My wife and I went to high school less than 3 miles from each other. I went to Clarkson University, she went to the State University of New York at Potsdam and the Crane School of music. At her state school, she had the basic courses to fulfill minimum requirements. I proofread all her English papers and checked her Math homework, but her Music and Education work was the real deal. At Clarkson, there were no general courses. If you had to fulfill a Math requirement, you were taking Math with the Math majors, regardless of your major. Same with every course. I literally had an hour of homework from each class. That's when we first noticed the struggle to find the balance. In following years, we noticed kids having to have wheels on their backpack which they pulled behind them like luggage. Kids feeling the need to participate in EVERY extracurricular activity AND get 4.0 GPA's so they can get into a good college. There were lots of signs... those were just a few. We learned, when we lived in Germany, that many elementary schools give you a basic education while at the same time finding your aptitudes. Then when you're about 12-14 years old, you pick your career, and the rest of your education focuses you in that career track. Their nurses have more schooling than many American doctors, and I personally trusted them more than I trusted the American doctors. One example is No Child Left Behind. For the first 5 or 6 years of schooling, teachers have to coddle the kids that are below grade level. The ones at grade level don't get much attention, so they start to fall behind. The smarter ones who breeze through the work aren't challenged and become bored or, even worse, the "bad" kids. We're too busy trying to bring the struggling students up that we don't free the other kids to learn and be challenged. Teachers being underpaid so that there are fewer and fewer teachers each year. Placing such an emphasis on going to a "good college" and not telling kids the truth... that the better method for higher education would be to attend community college for 2 years and get an Associate's Degree, and then transfer into a "good" college if they find they want more education and the higher paying jobs. The Federal government can't interfere. The State governments have the final say in educational matters. As far as what can be done... I don't know. In America, it's probably too late. So many changes are needed that they would have to be sudden, sweeping, and immediate. My initial opinion would be to increase teacher pay by 20%. Lengthen the school day. Allow students to choose their curriculum "career track." More magnet/specialty schools. Less emphasis on overall perfection.

I am not in favor of IQ testing and schools pathing children, but find much of what you say pleasing. I think it would be great in cities where there are several high schools, to have one focused on medical careers. Students attending such a high school would be free to pick any career they want, but this school would focus more on vocabulary and knowledge needed by those who might go into the medical feild. Another high school might focus on psychology and sociology, because by high school there are students strongly drawn to such subjects. Then a school for vocational skills.

However, learning should be life long. We must provide education for everyone in all feilds of knowledge. Sometimes a child's family circumstances are so bad, the child can not learn, and will need to postpone education. But also, kind of like the question Coffee Saint asked his class, who wants to go through life without learning something? How awful to wake up 80 years old, with the mentality of a 20 year old. :) I am working on my next incarnation. I may not accomplish much with what I have left in this life time, but, I should have a running start on my next life.

Oh, and when people understood what education had to do with democracy and liberty, we knew we learned to read and write, so we could use these skills, and that learning was a life long thing. How do we know how to vote on such things like a nuclear plant for our energy needs, or conservation issues, if we are ignorant? Obama is too young to be the president of people he does not respect. If nothing else, he is not very respectful of the time, nor education, it takes to gain wisdom.

Cry, money has the final say on education and the feds have the most of it, that puts the decisions in their hands. We were sold the New World Order agenda, without knowing what we were being sold, and the consequences of devoting all our education to the military/industrial complex. For most places, it is do things to get federal money or close the schools. However, until I die, I will work to raise awareness of what we have been and what could be done.