effect of education

[Athena]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint Give it time. Schools will keep moving toward teaching what to think until they implode and people teach themselves how to think. It's already happening with home school and independent internet/distance learning. Just a little bit more accessibility, and there will be no more public school.

Whoo, terrible bad idea to end public education! Far better to understand the importance of public education and get control of it. We need to discuss the importance of liberal education, but we can't discuss something no one knows anything about, so we end up these religious discussions that really annoy me, especially when there is not a good understanding of home schooling being dominated by Christians, and what would happen if secular education ended.

Consider if there were no public education, and little cults of ignorant people filled the void. Very bad idea.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Athena I don't remember the bible quotes, but know of them because I helped by grandson work on a paper about popular medival quotes and we happened on biblical quotes warning of the dangers of too much learning. It was fun to chose these quotes for the paper, because it was a school paper. However, we could start with Genesis and the idea that there is a fruit of forbidden knowledge. Like lets make knowledge of germs and the importance of sanitiation forbidden for a couple of thousands of years, but scare the hell out of people with fear of a punishing God. Then we could go on to all the rants about being decieved, and how Satan is the great deciever. And all that stuff that really has made Christians afraid of learning, especially learning about other religions, for thousands of years. But the quotes I wish I could find again are, about learning is bad for our nerves.

It is difficult to cite the Bible as specifically anti-education, the trend in history is that ancient worldviews feel threatend by more recent worldview and justify their opposition by whatever quote they can 'muck rake up'. Religions have historically relied on education as a control mechanism, too control 'knowledge'. In this way education has always been limited or controled in history by the established religion. The threat has grown in the modern world with the rise of a seperate secular education, and a diversity 'other religions' that also provide education. This has been commonly portrayed by Christians and Moslems using Biblical references like the tree of knowledge in the Garden of Eden, or attempts to rebuild the Tower of Babble and resurrect Babylon as a source of evil knowledge, Book of Revelation 'end times', etc.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: Athena Whoo, terrible bad idea to end public education! Far better to understand the importance of public education and get control of it. We need to discuss the importance of liberal education, but we can't discuss something no one knows anything about, so we end up these religious discussions that really annoy me, especially when there is not a good understanding of home schooling being dominated by Christians, and what would happen if secular education ended. Consider if there were no public education, and little cults of ignorant people filled the void. Very bad idea.

It isn't my idea, it's just what I see happening. Every year more and more students drop out of my high school and turn to alternative schooling or home schooling because it is faster, easier, and/or more independent. My school is now instituting an online class for remediation, so kids who fail a class can make up the credit on the computer. How long before those kids tell their friends that the computer class is easier, and they begin agitating for online schooling -- another growing trend for students in rural areas or those with limited mobility? Count the fact that online schooling would be far cheaper than public schools, and I think would have just as much chance of improving test scores (since the tests are also online, and so would focus on exactly the same skills as would the class) and it becomes, as I said, simply a matter of access.

I think that the pendulum will need to swing all the way away from liberal education before it can swing back. The reason my students don't see the value of a liberal education, of a values education, is because their parents don't see the value of it. Education is meant to get you a good job so you can earn money; the only other purpose of school that most of my students see ius a chance to socialize. Now, I just spoke to a former student yesterday, and he told me that he wishes he could go back to school and pay attention, rather than spending all of his time hanging out with his friends, but he is the exception, not the rule. As long as my students get decent grades, which they think is their ticket to gainful employment, they are happy and their parents are happy and the powers that be are happy. What they actually learn is secondary. And I don't believe this trend will change until we have a full generation of miserable people who got good grades but didn't learn squat. Even then, it will probably take more than one generation for people to realize that education, a real education, could fix that problem.

We are headed for Fahrenheit 451. I wish I knew how to stop it.

[The_Genius]

I think schools are just there to indoctrinate pupils and in the process, provide the country with employees. Because pupils are needed to be encouraged to 'think independently' instead of memorizing text books. History shouldn't just be about 'what happened in the past' but 'understanding how history also tells us about the future.'

[The_Genius]

One of my most favourite song lyrics....

Artist: Dead Prez (Hip-hop group)
Album: Let's Get Free
Song: "They Schools"


Teacher: Why haven't you learned anything?

Man that school sh*t is a joke
The same people who control the school system control
The prison system, and the whole social system
Ever since slavery, nawsayin?

[verse 1]
I went to school with some redneck crackers
Right around the time 3rd bass dropped the cactus album
But i was readin malcolm
I changed my name in '89 cleaning parts of my brain
Like a baby nine
I took a history class serious
Front row, every day of the week, 3rd period
F**kin with the teachers had, callin em racist
I tried to show them crackers some light, they couldn't face it
I got my diploma from a school called rickers
Full of, teenage mothers, and drug dealin ni**as
In the hallways, the popo was always present
Searchin through ni**as possessions
Lookin for, dope and weapons, get your lessons
That's why my moms kept stressin
I tried to pay attention but they classes wasn't interestin
They seemed to only glorify the europeans
Claimin africans were only three-fifths a human being

Hook:
They schools can't teach us sh*t
My people need freedom, we tryin to get all we can get
All my high school teachers can suck my di*k
Tellin me white man lies straight bullsh*t (echoes)
They schools aint teachin us, what we need to know to survive
(say what, say what)
They schools don't educate, all they teach the people is lies

You see dog, you see how quick these motherf**kers be to like
Be tellin ni**as get a diploma so you can get a job
Knowwhatimsayin but they don't never tell you how the job
Gonna exploit you every time knowwhatimsayin that's why i be like
F**k they schools!

[verse 2]
School is like a 12 step brainwash camp
They make you think if you drop out you aint got a chance
To advance in life, they try to make you pull your pants up
Students fight the teachers and get took away in handcuffs
And if that wasn't enough, then they expel y'all
Your peoples understand it but to them, you a failure
Observation and participation, my favorite teachers
When they beat us in the head with them books, it don't reach us
Whether you breakdance or rock suede addidas
Or be in the bathroom with your clique, smokin reefer
Then you know they math class aint important 'less you addin up cash
In multiples, unemployment aint rewardin
They may as well teach us extortion
You either get paid or locked up, the pricipal is like a warden
In a four year sentence, mad ni**as never finish
But that doesn't mean i couldn't be a doctor or a dentist

Hook(first part of hook twice)

Cuz for real, a mind is a terrible thing to waste
And all y'all high class ni**as with y'all nose up
Cuz we droppin this shit on this joint, f**k y'all
We gon speak for ourselves
Knowhatimsayin? cuz see the schools aint teachin us nothin
They aint teachin us nothin but how to be slaves and hardworkers
For white people to build up they shit
Make they businesses successful while it's exploitin us
Knowhatimsayin? and they aint teachin us nothin related to
Solvin our own problems, knowhatimsayin?
Aint teachin us how to get crack out the ghetto
They aint teachin us how to stop the police from murdering us
And brutalizing us, they aint teachin us how to get our rent paid
Knowhatimsayin? they aint teachin our families how to interact
Better with each other, knowhatimsayin? they just teachin us
How to build they sh*t up, knowhatimsayin? that's why my ni**as
Got a problem with this sh*t, that's why ni**as be droppin out that
Sh*t cuz it don't relate, you go to school the f**kin police
Searchin you you walkin in your sh*t like this a military compound
Knowhatimsayin? so school don't even relate to us
Until we have some sh*t where we control the f**kin school system
Where we reflect how we gon solve our own problems
Them ni**as aint gon relate to school, sh*t that just how it is
Knowhatimsayin? and i love education, knowhatimsayin?
But if education aint elevatin me, then you knowhatimsayin it aint
Takin me where i need to go on some bullsh*t, then f**k education
Knowhatimsayin? at least they sh*t, matter of fact my ni**a
This whole school system can suck my di*k, beeyotch!!

[phoenix_fire]

Gack!

[Fonceai]

I would rather you had just mentioned the info about the song and then actually wrote why you like the lyrics.

[The_Genius]

It tells how distorted history is being taught in schools.

Who was columbus?

If you write he was a colonist who was responsible for the killing of native Indians, you would fail. Although you are saying the truth.

[Fonceai]

Christopher Columbus was devoutly religious and was a proponent of the Crusades. Instead of going east, thought, he went west.

He got it into his head that a western route to India was possible, and after years of trying he finally landed in the Americas.

With him, he brought the Plague and a collection of other harmful but non-fatal diseases.

Failing to find gold, he returned to Europe where he convinced his royal sponsors that there was gold. He had no proof, but his extreme faith and belief led to follow-up trips to the Americas.

It was on those follow-up trips that he was accompanied by those who believed the native peoples were holding out on the Europeans and enslaved and/or slaughtered them.

...

Sorry... were you asking a rhetorical question?

I don't know about Cape Town, but at least in New York State, the intention of education is to give children a framework on which they can determine their aptitudes and interests.

The education they receive isn't lies... it's truth with information omitted.

[The_Genius]

Quote by: Fonceai Christopher Columbus was devoutly religious and was a proponent of the Crusades. Instead of going east, thought, he went west. He got it into his head that a western route to India was possible, and after years of trying he finally landed in the Americas. With him, he brought the Plague and a collection of other harmful but non-fatal diseases. Failing to find gold, he returned to Europe where he convinced his royal sponsors that there was gold. He had no proof, but his extreme faith and belief led to follow-up trips to the Americas. It was on those follow-up trips that he was accompanied by those who believed the native peoples were holding out on the Europeans and enslaved and/or slaughtered them.

Fair enough.

But how reliable is your version of that piece of history? Because we both know that what you have mentioned has been written by a European historian. I'm not implying European historians are liars, but we cerainly don't know the Native Indian side of the story.

I don't know about Cape Town, but at least in New York State, the intention of education is to give children a framework on which they can determine their aptitudes and interests. The education they receive isn't lies... it's truth with information omitted.

It's the same in Cape Town but I find lots of educational subjects unnecessary. If I'm not interested in geometry, why the hell I'm forced to do it?

[Fonceai]

Quote by: TG we cerainly don't know the Native Indian side of the story.

We certainly do know the Native American side of it (Native Indians live in Asia).

The sole benefit of education is, ironically, to teach you how to learn.

A student that demonstrates a successful education system is not a straight 'A' student. It's a student that has enough basic knowledge to know how to find more information, how to understand that information, and how to use that information.

[Athena]

Quote by: The_Genius I think schools are just there to indoctrinate pupils and in the process, provide the country with employees. Because pupils are needed to be encouraged to 'think independently' instead of memorizing text books. History shouldn't just be about 'what happened in the past' but 'understanding how history also tells us about the future.'

I very much appreciate your contribution, because of your Muslim moral concern, and being the one who inspired this thread. In the US vocation training, that is preparing individuals for jobs, wasn't part of public education until mobilization for the first world war. I think our present focus on preparing people for jobs, is a terrible distortion of the education a democracy needs. We fought against this mentality in two world wars.

Adding vocational training to public education was a good thing, but dropping education for citizenship as a bad, bad thing! We didn't do that until the military technology of the second world war, and the result is an amoral society that could well destroy our civilization.

Liberal education taught of us humanity and prepared everyone to be civic and industrila leaders. It wasn't perfect, but it did transmit a culture that was essential to our liberty and when we stopped transmitting the culture, we went into decay. Only highly moral people can have liberty, and that morality does not depend on religion. It does however, depend on perparing individuals for independent, good moral judgement.

[Athena]

Quote by: Fonceai We certainly do know the Native American side of it (Native Indians live in Asia). The sole benefit of education is, ironically, to teach you how to learn. A student that demonstrates a successful education system is not a straight 'A' student. It's a student that has enough basic knowledge to know how to find more information, how to understand that information, and how to use that information.

You have to be an older person, as your explanation of what education should be, dates you. You are speaking of education before the Behaviorist Method and "group think" replaced the Conceptual Method and independent thinking. Today it is more important to be a straight A student to actually know anything, because that will get into college, and through college.

Research showed the C student was the most likely to succeed in life. It was assumed this was because the C student was the most well rounded. When we emplemented the National Defense Education Act, and introduced IQ testing to help teachers select out those best suited for college, and began teaching for a limited range of intelligence for military and industrial purpose, our values were changed. We went from wanting people to well rounded and generalist, to wanting to be specialized and superior.

We are now what we fought against. This is not the nation we defended in two world wars. It isn't homosexual marriages that are destroying families. The family was destroyed with women's liberation which enslaved women to the state and put an end family life as we once knew it. We are the New World Order, posed to militarily dominate the world. We were the New Social Order.

[Athena]

Quote by: The_Genius Fair enough. But how reliable is your version of that piece of history? Because we both know that what you have mentioned has been written by a European historian. I'm not implying European historians are liars, but we cerainly don't know the Native Indian side of the story. It's the same in Cape Town but I find lots of educational subjects unnecessary. If I'm not interested in geometry, why the hell I'm forced to do it?

I don't think it is Europeans who wrote what Fonceai said. Fonceai's understanding of what happened is rather modern. It is a huge leap in understanding of human dignity and worth. For much of Europe's history, these people have looked down on others as subhumans. The people of the US are still struggling with this outdated notion of superior and inferior humans. What people believe of other people, depends on what they learn to believe.

We can know the Native American side of things, because they have published books telling us their side, and because today some take pride in seeking out and writing the Native American side. One can only hope someday Israel will do the same, in regards to the Palestinians who have been driven from the land, so that Jews can have the land. Like Israel, we held it was our destiny to own the land and do things our way. It took a long time before we questioned the rightness of this. People only do as well they learn to do.

Why learn something that doesn't interest you, like geometry? If you grasp geometry, your intelligence in general will be greater than if you don't learn geometry. The knowledge will change how you see the world. You can not appreciate the benefit of this, until you experience it. That is why we select what students should learn and insist they do their best to learn it, regardless of their interest. Not all students will do well in all subjects, but until they make a real effort, there is no way of knowing who is capable of learning something and who is not. It is better than being determined incapable and put out of school, forced into low skilled jobs.

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Athena You have to be an older person, as your explanation of what education should be, dates you.

Actually, I'm only 28.

My wife and I both teach and are well-educated in education methods and theory.

I know exactly what you mean about the "over-achieving, lets all work together, but please I need my 4.0" mentality.

I completely agree with your assessment of the transition from well-rounded to specialized. I think that transition was one of the worst things to happen to this country.

Instead of doing it the "right way" like they do in some European countries, they botched it up.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: The_Genius I think schools are just there to indoctrinate pupils and in the process, provide the country with employees. Because pupils are needed to be encouraged to 'think independently' instead of memorizing text books. History shouldn't just be about 'what happened in the past' but 'understanding how history also tells us about the future.'

Schools don't indoctrinate students, they present one view of information. They are not, and should never be, the end-all be-all of truth. Students should be capable of discovering alternative views and assessing the validity of those views on their own; if school tried to teach every possible view of every possible subject, then people would never get out of class.

It amuses me that you can both complain about how schools don't teach enough, and also complain about things they teach that you don't want to learn, like geometry. Do you want the schools to teach more, or less? If you just want the schools to tailor their education specifically to you and your needs, then you need to attend private school or educate yourself; public schools have to reflect the needs of the general populace.

I do agree that school should teach with a greater emphasis on thinking and analyzing rather than memorizing a specific set of "facts," but students generally don't want that. Thinking is hard, and memorizing is easy. Their choice is clear.

[Fonceai]

How ironic...

I always thought it was harder to memorize... and thought that if I learned to think I wouldn't need to memorize as much because I could derive the facts on my own.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: Fonceai How ironic... I always thought it was harder to memorize... and thought that if I learned to think I wouldn't need to memorize as much because I could derive the facts on my own.

Nah. Creating knowledge all over again is always harder than simply reciting what someone else creates. When people have already learned how to think, of course, then thinking doesn't pose such a challenge -- but our society is not well-equipped to train people how to think. One does not learn ratiocination from watching American Idol and Desperate Housewives.

[Fonceai]

Ah, the benefits of an '80's education where students were not equal, we weren't all winners, and you were taught to think for yourself.

[Athena]

Quote by: Fonceai Actually, I'm only 28. My wife and I both teach and are well-educated in education methods and theory. I know exactly what you mean about the "over-achieving, lets all work together, but please I need my 4.0" mentality. I completely agree with your assessment of the transition from well-rounded to specialized. I think that transition was one of the worst things to happen to this country. Instead of doing it the "right way" like they do in some European countries, they botched it up.

Wow, would I love to have lunch with and you and your wife and hear what you have to say about education.:) How did you come to know of the change in education? It seems everyone else is denying it, except the people over 80 who are dying. How have Europeans done things differently?
What do you mean by we have botched up education? What can we do about it, considering constitutionally the government is suppose to stay out of education and the citizens are suppose to make the education decisions for their community. Oh, oh, oh, please speak up!