Thought Experiment

[Kamehameha34]

So, basically you're claiming that something had to of created our universe? Yet you are also advocating that infinite regress exists. Why not our universe be eternal too? We could also get into semantics about "universe". If the god who created our universe used pre-existing energy, then it wasn't really creation. Effectively, the energy in our universe would be eternal, so essentially our universe has been eternal. If what you proposed was the case, I wouldn't really care to debate it, because the next question of "where did the energy come from", what was the first cause? Of course, in an infinite chain of events, there is not first. We are simply left with a mystery.

The infinite regress I'm looking at is the one that caused the energy and matter in our universe to collect the way it has.

We know that our universe can't have existed eternally, because we can trace it back to just after singularity.

Also, you claimed "There were an infinite amount of possibilities for a "god" to step into the infinite regress that caused our universe to be born. Given an infinite amount of possibilities, does that mean that there is a sure chance we were created by a "god"?" I would answer no. There was hypothetical potential for gods, but there was also infinite potential for anything else. Infinite regress doesn't mean there had to have been a god. And, this does not mean it is sure that any of the proposed potentials are certain, simply because there was infinite events. We can't apply a probability to the cause of our universe. Even if we could, there would be different theories with probabilities, and using you logic of multiplying infinitely (due to infinite events), each one would be a sure thing.

Yes, there can be an infinite amount of causes precluding our universe.

Pick any possible one, and it will have assuredly happened.

If a god is anywhere on the chain, then it is directly responsible for the creation of our universe, just as you're responsible for the firing of a bullet if you pull a trigger, despite the chain of events between your pulling the trigger and the firing of the bullet.

Of course probability can be applied. It can be applied to anything where there is a possibility of something.

[Yasa]

Whoops, I meant to post on the other thread. Oh well, would you like to move back there or stay here?

Quote by: Kamehameha34 Pick any possible one, and it will have assuredly happened. ... Of course probability can be applied. It can be applied to anything where there is a possibility of something.

I'm talking about possibilities regarding the creation of our universe. IE two theories. One claims a god is responsible. Another doesn't. How can we say they both assuredly happened?

[DEEJ85]

Seeing as the physical laws plus evolutionary laws that govern our universe seem to be cumulatively building on one another in an ever growing climb.

Wouldn't a universe with infinite age provide an infinite amount of time for these physical/evolutionary laws to reach its critical peak thereby eliminating anything bad such as suffering or pain?

Seeing how if the universe is infinite in age then it has had already more then enough time to reach this critical peak far before we arrived.

Also if the Universe is infinite in age, then what is time? Isn't time meaningless in the face of an infinite universe?

Is what we know of time just a human construct?

going from my layman's understanding of physics (I could be horribly wrong)
Doesn't the first and second laws of thermodynamics state that there is a cascading loss of energy where energy cannot pass from from a lesser source of energy to a greater (from cooler to a hotter). So how does this energy replenish itself and keep a continuous cycle? I think it was called entropy.

I could be totally wrong on this last one.

[Jack]

Wouldn't a universe with infinite age provide an infinite amount of time for these physical/evolutionary laws to reach its critical peak thereby eliminating anything bad such as suffering or pain?

But suffering and pain are characteristics of life, specifically life on this planet. Life is not infinite. Whatever was happening with the universe before life appeared on Earth, it wouldn't have had an affect on issues that pertain only to living things.

[Kamehameha34]

I'm talking about possibilities regarding the creation of our universe. IE two theories. One claims a god is responsible. Another doesn't. How can we say they both assuredly happened?

If a god is anywhere on the chain, then it is responsible for the creation of the universe.

Of course there were links in the chain that didn't include a god, but the universe is a product of all of the links.

To expand upon my gun analogy:

When you fire a gun, the firing of the bullet is a product of your pulling the trigger, the vendor selling you the gun, the manufacturer making it, the mining company for mining the metal, etc.

If not for every link, the gun wouldn't be fired.

Just like if just the one link with "god" in it were to be removed, the universe wouldn't exist.

[Yasa]

Quote by: Kamehameha34 If a god is anywhere on the chain, then it is responsible for the creation of the universe. Of course there were links in the chain that didn't include a god, but the universe is a product of all of the links. To expand upon my gun analogy: When you fire a gun, the firing of the bullet is a product of your pulling the trigger, the vendor selling you the gun, the manufacturer making it, the mining company for mining the metal, etc. If not for every link, the gun wouldn't be fired. Just like if just the one link with "god" in it were to be removed, the universe wouldn't exist.

But you're assuming the universe must have been created by a god. What if there was a possibility it wasn't. In an infinite regress, would the universe be created by such an event (that wasn't a god). My point, referring to your analogy is, who are you to say a god had to of pulled the trigger?

[Kamehameha34]

Quote by: Yasa But you're assuming the universe must have been created by a god. What if there was a possibility it wasn't. In an infinite regress, would the universe be created by such an event (that wasn't a god). My point, referring to your analogy is, who are you to say a god had to of pulled the trigger?

No no, if god is any of the links on the chain, then god is directly responsible for the creation of the universe.


Point being, if you remove the mining company, the shot isn't fired.


In an infinite regress, each step is necessary.

[Yasa]

Quote by: Kamehameha34 No no, if god is any of the links on the chain, then god is directly responsible for the creation of the universe.

We'll... in a murder, I'd say that the shooter is directly responsible, not the mining company. It has to do with your beliefs regarding free will. Also, all you're doing is speculating that a god created our universe--what's your point? You used the word "if" as in... a possibility. I could say "what if he wasn't part of the links?" There's nothing saying a god had to be a part of the regress.

[Kamehameha34]

We'll... in a murder, I'd say that the shooter is directly responsible, not the mining company. It has to do with your beliefs regarding free will.

Look at the definition for "god" I've provided in the OP. The god in the chain had the intent to create our universe when he participated in the chain.

If it is possible for any of the links on the chain to be a god with the intent of continuing it, then it assuredly happened.

You used the word "if" as in... a possibility. I could say "what if he wasn't part of the links?" There's nothing saying a god had to be a part of the regress

No, you can't say that. That's the whole thesis for this thread.

If it is in any way possible for a god to be in the chain, then he assuredly was due to an infinite amount of trials.

You can say "what if he wasn't part of the links?", but the odds of him not being in the chain are 0.0r1%, or 1 divided by infinity.

[Yasa]

Quote by: Kamehameha34 If it is in any way possible for a god to be in the chain, then he assuredly was due to an infinite amount of trials.

And if it was possible he wasn't, that non-possibility is also an assuredity according to this logic.
You're claiming anything with possibility is an assuredity in an infinite regress. That would mean any contradicting theories that could be considered possible would both be correct--that doesn't work.

Quote by: Kamehameha34 You can say "what if he wasn't part of the links?", but the odds of him not being in the chain are 0.0r1%, or 1 divided by infinity.

Can you please prove this? There is absolutely no reason to say there must have been a god in such a regress. (ie limit of the chance there wasn't is 0).

[Kamehameha34]

And if it was possible he wasn't, that non-possibility is also an assuredity according to this logic. You're claiming anything with possibility is an assuredity in an infinite regress. That would mean any contradicting theories that could be considered possible would both be correct--that doesn't work.

You're looking at it wrong..

There's a chance for him to not be in a link, which means that there are links that don't contain a god. That doesn't mean that there are no links with a god.

It's nonsensical to say that there's a "chance for him not to be in the chain", then use the infinite amount of links to validate that. Your evidence contradicts your point!

Can you please prove this? There is absolutely no reason to say there must have been a god in such a regress. (ie limit of the chance there wasn't is 0).

Possibility of a god in the chain = P > 0

Number of links, or trials = i = infinity

1-((1-P)^i) = 99.9r%

Proportionally-

((1-P)^i) = 0.0r1%

The first equation shows the possibility of something happening over "i" number of trials. With 'i' set to infinity, anything possible becomes a certainty.

The second equation shows the possibility of something not happening over 'i' number of trials. With 'i' set to infinity, any possible outcome has a 0.0r1% chance of not happening.

[Yasa]

Quote by: Kamehameha34 The second equation shows the possibility of something not happening over 'i' number of trials. With 'i' set to infinity, any possible outcome has a 0.0r1% chance of not happening.

What if the something we are calculating is the nothing? Then the chance that nothing didn't happen would be 0.0r1%. Or... the possibilities that there was a different cause for the universe. Either way, you cannot claim god is a certainty.

[Kamehameha34]

Quote by: Yasa What if the something we are calculating is the nothing? Then the chance that nothing didn't happen would be 0.0r1%. Or... the possibilities that there was a different cause for the universe. Either way, you cannot claim god is a certainty.

.. What are you talking about?

All I gleaned from that was that you somehow think that there's only one cause for the universe, which I've explained to be false.