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The_Genius · Feb 7, 2007, 03:20 pm

As far as my personal belief goes, worshipping or praying to a saint, priest but God is blasphemous...

the last man · Feb 7, 2007, 03:23 pm

I think this woman lied when she said she was virgin.How it comes to have a child and you are virgin !
Anyway ,I know that it was something common 2000years ago to say : Hey guys ,I got a child from God!

PatrickHenry · Feb 7, 2007, 03:24 pm

What makes anyone think that saints or Mary are conscious and able to affect anything, regardless of our appeals? They are dead, and will be resurrected on the Last Day, like all the other Godly deceased...

The_Genius · Feb 7, 2007, 03:34 pm

Quote:

Quote by: PatrickHenry

What makes anyone think that saints or Mary are conscious and able to affect anything, regardless of our appeals? They are dead, and will be resurrected on the Last Day, like all the other Godly deceased...

Exactly.. Dead people can't hear us.

Gods_Mercenary · Feb 7, 2007, 08:07 pm

Quote:

Quote by: PatrickHenry

What makes anyone think that saints or Mary are conscious and able to affect anything, regardless of our appeals? They are dead, and will be resurrected on the Last Day, like all the other Godly deceased...

From a christian perspective, they're up in heaven looking down at us, very consious.

phoenix_fire · Feb 7, 2007, 08:11 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary

From a christian perspective, they're up in heaven looking down at us, very consious.

That depends. Heaven as most people believe it to be is hardly tenable from a biblical perspective.

Gods_Mercenary · Feb 7, 2007, 08:12 pm

Probably true, but few to no christians actually only use the bible to guide them, contrary to what many of them think.

phoenix_fire · Feb 8, 2007, 12:03 am

Well, there is a lot of folk myth that has grown up around the Bible that is sheer fiction. But many people aren't discerning enough to check or even care.

PatrickHenry · Feb 8, 2007, 12:46 am

Quote:

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary

Probably true, but few to no christians actually only use the bible to guide them, contrary to what many of them think.

You are mistaken, my friend. Many Christians are serious about Bible study and sound doctrine.

rez · Feb 8, 2007, 01:27 am

Quote:

Quote by: PatrickHenry

You are mistaken, my friend. Many Christians are serious about Bible study and sound doctrine.

but a Christian does not attempt to study and examine the basis of their own religion against the religion they are rejecting. This is what we call a double standard. Mexicans have ever right to worship the Virgin Mary whether you like it or not.

PatrickHenry · Feb 8, 2007, 03:19 am

Quote:

Quote by: rez

but a Christian does not attempt to study and examine the basis of their own religion against the religion they are rejecting. This is what we call a double standard. Mexicans have ever right to worship the Virgin Mary whether you like it or not.

Anyone can worship anything they want. Worship your Corvette if you like.

I am writing of the doctrine propounded by Jesus and augmented by the writers of the New Testament. Not syncretistic mishmash pushed by a venal Church.

And you could just hit the trail atheist, 'cause you don't know squat about the Christian faith.

phoenix_fire · Feb 8, 2007, 01:08 pm

Quote:

Quote by: rez

but a Christian does not attempt to study and examine the basis of their own religion against the religion they are rejecting. This is what we call a double standard. Mexicans have ever right to worship the Virgin Mary whether you like it or not.

They do...doesn't mean they should. We're not going in with a military behind us to force them not to, so it shouldn't bother you. For hundreds of years, Protestants have examined the claims of the Virgin Cult and rejected them (some more than others), so I don't know what you're getting at.

Gods_Mercenary · Feb 8, 2007, 08:10 pm

Quote:

Quote by: PatrickHenry

You are mistaken, my friend. Many Christians are serious about Bible study and sound doctrine.

They try, but are actually taking something from outside the bible when they claim that it is the only source of guidance they can have. The simple act of claiming that the entire bible is inspired by God is not in the bible, paul says something about it, but he couldn't have known the form the bible has taken, as he was writing far before the bible was canonized.

Epistemologist · Feb 8, 2007, 09:56 pm

Us Catholics believe that although the Holy Mary is an extremely important saint, she should not be worshiped, i.e. worshiped like God. We honor her and even pray to her at times, but our primary focus is the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.

So yeah, she's a saint, which is a very significant position, but we believe no such position is paramount or even tantamount to that of God.

phoenix_fire · Feb 8, 2007, 11:59 pm

There is a difference between an assent to a dogma and practice. Further, veneration still looks a heck of a lot like adoration to us outsiders.

Epistemologist · Feb 9, 2007, 10:11 am

Well, we do adore her. We do pray to her. We do venerate her. But we don't worship her per se.

phoenix_fire · Feb 9, 2007, 02:29 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Epistemologist

Well, we do adore her. We do pray to her. We do venerate her. But we don't worship her per se.

Adoration is the technical term for the worship reserved only to God. Veneration is the technical term for the Catholic relationship to Mary, and to a lesser degree, to the saints. What I'm saying is that the two seem interchangeable to many non-Catholics...and apparently to you too.

Epistemologist · Feb 9, 2007, 02:35 pm

Quote:

Quote by: phoenix_fire

Adoration is the technical term for the worship reserved only to God. Veneration is the technical term for the Catholic relationship to Mary, and to a lesser degree, to the saints. What I'm saying is that the two seem interchangeable to many non-Catholics...and apparently to you too.

Well sorry I didn't know you were referring to the technical definition. I just thought you were using the conventional definition of "adoration." Of course, I know we "venerate" the saints, including the Holy Mary. I'm not entirely accustomed to the English words used to describe our respect of God and the saints.

phoenix_fire · Feb 9, 2007, 02:42 pm

Sorry, I italicized them hoping you would understand that I was using the term. But I've read that these are the dogmatic words...I forget what they are in Latin.

Epistemologist · Feb 9, 2007, 02:44 pm

Quote:

Quote by: phoenix_fire

Sorry, I italicized them hoping you would understand that I was using the term. But I've read that these are the dogmatic words...I forget what they are in Latin.

I haven't really heard the term "adoration" used much though, but I suppose it's an existing dogmatic term.

In the United States, it might seem more likely that non-Catholics view our veneration of Mary as worship because Mary is the patron saint in the U.S., so there are more prayers and appeals to Mary.

Feb 7, 2007, 03:20 pm	#21 (permalink) (top)
The_Genius ~Ruthless Debater~ Location: Cape Town, South Africa. Posts: 433	As far as my personal belief goes, worshipping or praying to a saint, priest but God is blasphemous... www.islamawareness.net

Feb 7, 2007, 03:24 pm	#23 (permalink) (top)
PatrickHenry 9/11: Inside Job Location: Hawai'i, Big Island Posts: 10,455	What makes anyone think that saints or Mary are conscious and able to affect anything, regardless of our appeals? They are dead, and will be resurrected on the Last Day, like all the other Godly deceased... "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." -- John Adams

Feb 7, 2007, 08:12 pm	#27 (permalink) (top)
Gods_Mercenary Altruism Assassin Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,361	Probably true, but few to no christians actually only use the bible to guide them, contrary to what many of them think. “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.” -Albert Einstein

Feb 8, 2007, 12:03 am	#28 (permalink) (top)
phoenix_fire Paladin Location: Narnia Posts: 4,277	Well, there is a lot of folk myth that has grown up around the Bible that is sheer fiction. But many people aren't discerning enough to check or even care. Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm; for love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave. It burns like blazing fire, like a mighty flame. -- Song 8:6

Feb 8, 2007, 09:56 pm	#34 (permalink) (top)
Epistemologist God is good Location: Down by the river, stealing your water Posts: 1,518	Us Catholics believe that although the Holy Mary is an extremely important saint, she should not be worshiped, i.e. worshiped like God. We honor her and even pray to her at times, but our primary focus is the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. So yeah, she's a saint, which is a very significant position, but we believe no such position is paramount or even tantamount to that of God. But what's to stop the manic tide, The suicide of our own pride? The Complex Last edited by Epistemologist; Feb 8, 2007 at 09:57 pm. Reason: Removed bad diction

Feb 7, 2007, 03:23 pm	#22 (permalink) (top)
the last man Molten Ash Location: overseas Posts: 27	I think this woman lied when she said she was virgin.How it comes to have a child and you are virgin ! Anyway ,I know that it was something common 2000years ago to say : Hey guys ,I got a child from God!

Feb 8, 2007, 11:59 pm	#35 (permalink) (top)
phoenix_fire Paladin Location: Narnia Posts: 4,277	There is a difference between an assent to a dogma and practice. Further, veneration still looks a heck of a lot like adoration to us outsiders. Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm; for love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave. It burns like blazing fire, like a mighty flame. -- Song 8:6

Feb 9, 2007, 10:11 am	#36 (permalink) (top)
Epistemologist God is good Location: Down by the river, stealing your water Posts: 1,518	Well, we do adore her. We do pray to her. We do venerate her. But we don't worship her per se. But what's to stop the manic tide, The suicide of our own pride? The Complex

Feb 9, 2007, 02:42 pm	#39 (permalink) (top)
phoenix_fire Paladin Location: Narnia Posts: 4,277	Sorry, I italicized them hoping you would understand that I was using the term. But I've read that these are the dogmatic words...I forget what they are in Latin. Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm; for love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave. It burns like blazing fire, like a mighty flame. -- Song 8:6