Does destiny exist?

[nilan3000]

I was having an argument with a friend of mine the other day who beleives in destiny. Her main point was that though the small things in life may depend on our independent thoughts and actions, each of us already have a path set out for us which we must invariably travel. I am not sure what the exact accepted definition of destiny is, but would be grateful for anyone who sheds some light on the topic.

Personally, I doubt the concept of destiny because that means intelligence does not exist. If all of us are just walking down the path that has already been set out for us, we merely carry out a set of pre planned actions in our brain, we have no independent thoughts of our own. For example, if meeting a person was my destiny, every action that has in some way led up to that point where I meet him/her is not the result of my intelligence/independent thinking, I was merely acting out a set of instructions that have already been inputed into my brain.

The basic premise of my argument is that if destiny exists, we all invariably act in ways by which that destiny could be fulfiiled, therefore our actions and thoughts are being controlled by this superior force called 'destiny'. Independent thinking and in many ways intelligence itself, cannot thus exist in its conventional form if destiny exists too. We are in some sense, no different from actors in a play, as the script already exists. The character in the play MUST act as the script demands to propel the plot forward and he is under the total control of the creator of the play. The same goes for us.

Hope that makes sense. So what do you guys think?

[Yasa]

I don't like it because I have no real choice. It also means the future has already happened, which disturbs me immensely. I completely reject it, however deja vu creeps me out (being in a moment that it seems like you've dreamt before exactly the same). Even if such a thing exists, will we ever really know?

[nilan3000]

no we wont, which makes it even scarier...we might all be pre-programed machines and never realise it...

[Yasa]

You can see why I reject it.

[Jack]

Since there is no way we could construct a test for destiny, it becomes another belief like religion. If it helps to believe in it, go for it. If it doesn't, deny it. No one is likely to ever be able to prove you right or wrong. Belief is like a filter on our perception of reality. If you believe in destiny, you're going to perceive a lot of evidence for it in your life. Share that evidence with someone who disbelieves and they'll tell you that's nonsense.

I don't believe in destiny. I don't believe that there exists an outside force to control a destiny. Nor do I believe there's any "goal" for destiny to be working toward.

[nilan3000]

i reject it for the same reason, but i cant deny the fact that im rejecting it because i dont want it to be true rather than because i know its not true. which is what really bothers me.

[Zhavric]

I've never understood this hypothetical. It's nonsensical. You have the perception of free will / no destiny. Therefor, even if destiny exists... even if you're a character in a play... it doesn't matter.

Perception of free will IS free will.

[Lotharia]

Here is a good explanation of the deja vu experience.
déjà vu, deja vu

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: nilan The basic premise of my argument is that if destiny exists, we all invariably act in ways by which that destiny could be fulfiiled, therefore our actions and thoughts are being controlled by this superior force called 'destiny'.

Also known as physics. If you agree that humans are nothing more than flesh and bone, you cannot believe in free will. The human body is composed entirely of chemicals and chemical reactions. A chemical reaction doesn't have free will. Note that if you agree with this, you are not necessarily accepting that predetermined fate exists; just that you have no real independent control over your future.

As to the question of destiny, it all hinges on whether or not you believe in a probabilistic or a deterministic universe. Quantum or Classical; therein lies the debate.

[Praxius]

I just see it as..... if everything is already written out for us to live by, then what's the point? Why not just get to the end and be done with it?

Another thing is, due to the infinite interactions and possibilities that happen from each living creature, environment, time and everything else.... to say that all of this complexity of chance is already laid out and predetermined, that every action each of us do and the results of every one of those actions is already figured out.... is a bit far fetched for me, and just doesn't make sense for how the Universe runs.

I think where destiny derives from, is when people have a sense of something to come in their lives, and it does, they feel that it is unchangeable and there is a destiny...... when all it is, is just an obvious outcome for that particular situation in their life.

Loose Example:
I draw..... I goto college..... I graduated..... I get a job. Now was that all destiny? Or was that just something obvious that I was going to do anyways? Currently, I no longer draw, and I work in a sign company..... not quite drawing or animation.....

The thing about destiny I find, is that no matter what happens in your life, good or bad, people can easily say "Oh, well that is destiny because it was meant to happen." when there is no proof.

if Destiny does exist, it only exists in the things we done in the past imo.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Prax I just see it as..... if everything is already written out for us to live by, then what's the point? Why not just get to the end and be done with it?

To see how things work out.

To put it another way, if your future is uncertain, why not just get to the end and be done with it? You don’t know how a predetermined future will work out and you don’t know how an uncertain future will work out. What’s the difference?

Quote by: Prax Another thing is, due to the infinite interactions and possibilities that happen from each living creature, environment, time and everything else.... to say that all of this complexity of chance is already laid out and predetermined, that every action each of us do and the results of every one of those actions is already figured out.... is a bit far fetched for me, and just doesn't make sense for how the Universe runs.

But that’s precisely how Classical Physics does work. Everything is predictable provided you know the variables and the equations. You can pretty much predict exactly how a chemical reaction will occur, as long as you know things like concentration, pressure, temperature, reaction mechanisms etc. Why should if be different for the universe as a whole?

[pandaz xx]

Quote by: Lotharia Here is a good explanation of the deja vu experience. déjà vu, deja vu

nice linkage.
it makes sense.

but I refuse destiny.
its disturbing.
we would NEVER know if there was any destiny.

we'd be like robots.
our actions are not what we pick.
but what they pick.

but in this case.
who would they be.

[nilan3000]

Quote by: Zhavric Perception of free will IS free will.

I get your point, but I disagree. Perception itself does not make something exist. Just because 2000 years ago everybody on earth beleived the earth was flat, that does not mean the earth was flat at the time.

We might think we have free will (thus perception of free will) but if we are actually being controlled without our knowledge, that still means free will does not exist, no matter how strongly convinced we remain.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: nilan I get your point, but I disagree. Perception itself does not make something exist. Just because 2000 years ago everybody on earth beleived the earth was flat, that does not mean the earth was flat at the time.

Believe me, Zhavric is the last person who would be arguing subjective truth. I think his point (and if it's not then I want to make it anyway) was that the issue of whether or not we have free will doesn't impact on our lives in any way. The perception is enough to make us all act as though we have free will, so whether it actually exists is, on anything other than a philosophical level, irrelevant.

The only effect my non-belief in free will has on me as a person is to make me non-judgemental.

[Yasa]

Quote by: Lotharia Here is a good explanation of the deja vu experience. déjà vu, deja vu

pfff, everyone knows that deja vu is when something has just been changed in the matrix .

[Praxius]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy To see how things work out. To put it another way, if your future is uncertain, why not just get to the end and be done with it? You don’t know how a predetermined future will work out and you don’t know how an uncertain future will work out. What’s the difference?

An uncertain future can show that our decisions determine our outcome.... while a predetermined future apparently already has everything laid out and we're just riding the wave to the end..... which makes no sense. If the future is already laid out and predetermined, then why bother with time? Apparently in this case of a reality, time goes forward as well as backwards.

But that’s precisely how Classical Physics does work. Everything is predictable provided you know the variables and the equations. You can pretty much predict exactly how a chemical reaction will occur, as long as you know things like concentration, pressure, temperature, reaction mechanisms etc. Why should if be different for the universe as a whole?

Because when comparing physics to our everyday life and decisions, physics doesn't completely answer everything.... like the human conscious factor.

In a perfect universe, your above statement would make sense..... but we control the chemicals in our body to a degree.... I move my hand to the right, now to the left..... I speak..... now I stop.... because I chose to.

If there is going to be a destiny of a driver coming down the road and kill someone, if time is already determined in the future, then you must also be able to go into the past. If I went into the past and altered what happened, then that destiny would no longer exist and things in the past would change, which would also alter the future.

But then again.... maybe I was destined to go back in time and alter the past to alter the future...... Destiny can be easily labeled to anything that happens..... it's a broad explanation for things that you can not explain nor prove.... kinda like God.

I just feel it's another one of those excuses for humans to not take responsibility for their own lives and actions... to a degree.

Like I said in another thread.... I have tapped into the time line once or twice and I could see that there is a blurry future.... like a cone of information. The closer you are to the present, the more focused the results of what there is to come..... probabilities so to speak.

Not to repeat myself, but I knew Bush would screw this planet the moment I saw him when he won the election. I knew there was going to be an invasion in Afghanistan. I knew 100% that Bush was going to go after Iraq approx one year later. Because I predicted this, doesn't mean there is a destiny, just % of probability.

And you can't prove physics can explain everything in the universe. On our planet and in our solar system it can explain most things.... but our laws of physics might not apply somewhere else in the universe.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Prax An uncertain future can show that our decisions determine our outcome.... while a predetermined future apparently already has everything laid out and we're just riding the wave to the end..... which makes no sense. If the future is already laid out and predetermined, then why bother with time? Apparently in this case of a reality, time goes forward as well as backwards.

I don’t follow you.

Quote by: Prax Because when comparing physics to our everyday life and decisions, physics doesn't completely answer everything.... like the human conscious factor. In a perfect universe, your above statement would make sense..... but we control the chemicals in our body to a degree.... I move my hand to the right, now to the left..... I speak..... now I stop.... because I chose to.

Your movements are controlled by your brain; your brain is a chemical structure subject to the same laws of physics that anything else is. There is nothing credible to suggest that it isn't.

Quote by: Prax it's a broad explanation for things that you can not explain nor prove.... kinda like God.

Destiny doesn’t attempt to explain anything; it is simply a logical deduction from the belief that our universe runs on the laws of physics (and that it is deterministic rather than probabilistic).

Quote by: Prax Like I said in another thread.... I have tapped into the time line once or twice and I could see that there is a blurry future.... like a cone of information. The closer you are to the present, the more focused the results of what there is to come..... probabilities so to speak.

That’s only because you don’t know all the variables. If you knew all the variables of the future (the position and momentum of every particle in the universe, which incidentally is impossible), you would be able to predict the future with perfect accuracy.

Quote by: Prax And you can't prove physics can explain everything in the universe. On our planet and in our solar system it can explain most things.... but our laws of physics might not apply somewhere else in the universe.

To be clear, I’m not actually claiming that destiny exists. I’m just wondering why you are so sure it doesn’t.

[Praxius]

Ahhhh......

That’s only because you don’t know all the variables. If you knew all the variables of the future (the position and momentum of every particle in the universe, which incidentally is impossible), you would be able to predict the future with perfect accuracy.

If it is impossible to predict, then how is there a destiny? Who laid it all out then? Shall this topic become directed towards a "God" now?

Destiny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Destiny refers to a predetermined course of events. It may be conceived as a predetermined future, whether in general or of an individual. It is a concept based on the belief that there is a fixed natural order to the universe.

But if it is impossible to predict the outcome of the future, then how can one say there is a predetermined future?

There is a flow to the universe, and everything interacts with one another, much like the butterfly effect, but this doesn't mean that physics can predict the overall outcome of the future.

As you say, to calculate every single factor in the universe, you could probably figure out what will be coming.... but as you said, it is impossible to do such a thing.

And when I was talking about our consciousness, yes the brain is made up of atoms and chemicals, but what we decide to do with our lives, who we interact with, and how is the "wild card."

And when I was talking about being able to go backwards and forwards in time, I meant that if the future is already predetermined, then it must have been predetermined prior to the past, before anything started to begin with. So the future is technically the past, and we've just been thrown on the timeline to play it all out to reach ground zero once again. And if this is the case, then time travel is possible and would open the door to the possibilities of someone able to travel different times and possibly alter the past, resulting in the predetermined future to be altered, no longer being the predetermined future..... unless going back in time to alter the future was also predetermined.

With me so far? lol.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Prax Who laid it all out then? Shall this topic become directed towards a "God" now?

Well, the question of how the universe was created applies to an uncertain universe as well.

Quote by: Prax But if it is impossible to predict the outcome of the future, then how can one say there is a predetermined future? There is a flow to the universe, and everything interacts with one another, much like the butterfly effect, but this doesn't mean that physics can predict the overall outcome of the future. As you say, to calculate every single factor in the universe, you could probably figure out what will be coming.... but as you said, it is impossible to do such a thing.

HUP only states that it is impossible for us to predict the future with perfect accuracy. The fact that we are unable to predict the future doesn't negate the possibility that it is predetermined.

Quote by: Prax And when I was talking about our consciousness, yes the brain is made up of atoms and chemicals, but what we decide to do with our lives, who we interact with, and how is the "wild card."

But these decisions are all controlled by the chemicals and neuron interactions in our brains.

Quote by: Prax And when I was talking about being able to go backwards and forwards in time, I meant that if the future is already predetermined, then it must have been predetermined prior to the past, before anything started to begin with.

If matter, energy and physics all came into existence spontaneously, the prior to the past angle doesn't seem to apply. I don't think we know enough about the origins of the universe to use that argument.

[Praxius]

But these decisions are all controlled by the chemicals and neuron interactions in our brains.

ok, but is everything in our brain's chemical reactions already predetermined? I understand for our bodily functions to work certain chemicals are predetermined to keep things consistent, but what about decision making and communications?

I dunno.... call it just my own bias, but I still don't think there is such a thing as a destiny. If there is, it's only through a short time ahead in the future.... say like an hour or something.