Does destiny exist?

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Shunyadragon A great deal is known about some factors that influence our decision making process, and the conclusion is free will exists, but not all the factors are known yet.

What knowledge leads to the conclusion that free will exists?

[Praxius]

Ok how about this?

It's a combination of both Destiny and Random Free Will.

There are various different destinies laid out for our lives, but depending on the choices we make, determines which path to what destiny we take........ See Sliders.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Prax It's a combination of both Destiny and Random Free Will. There are various different destinies laid out for our lives, but depending on the choices we make, determines which path to what destiny we take........ See Sliders.

Well, that would be true of anything involving free will. If our decisions were guided by indeterminate free will, our path would be still bound at least by the laws of physics. For example, you can't walk through a solid wall no matter what decisions you make. So maybe the "destinies" laid out for our lives are simply everything which does not break a law of physics. As for free will restricted to anything beyond that, I don't buy it. I mean who would put these restrictions in place? The gods?

This is all pure conjecture of course; I still don't believe that humans can control their destinies. It's unscientific think that matter has control over itself.

[boyo1991]

in my own opinion, yes, but it may be altered, if so wish so, so its 50% talent and 50% destiny.

[Praxius]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy Well, that would be true of anything involving free will. If our decisions were guided by indeterminate free will, our path would be still bound at least by the laws of physics. For example, you can't walk through a solid wall no matter what decisions you make. So maybe the "destinies" laid out for our lives are simply everything which does not break a law of physics. As for free will restricted to anything beyond that, I don't buy it. I mean who would put these restrictions in place? The gods?

well of course the laws of physics still is relevant, but some were claiming free will is already predetermined by physics, but physics only explains so much, and freewill exists, within the boundaries of physics. But since our current physics doesn't explain everything in the universe 100% (Or else we would know the meaning to life and perfection) free will exists to channel ourselves to think outside of the box to start new ideas and to change our lives in how it exists....to come up with new theories and test thing within physics and understand and learn.

Physics states that energy is always constant, so when you die, where is that energy going? Does it just dissipate into the air and vanish? Some of these things can not be explained completely and thereby free will comes into play. Without free will we'd just be robots.... you'd be the computer in front of you.... doing calculations.

If we are computers doing calculations, then who put those calculations in us and decided for us what was going to happen? If someone else is making the decisions, then that would logically mean we are not really ourselves but we are someone else, somewhere else, being created by their own imagination, such as I type this post..... it's not my avatar saying this, it's the guy behind it.

So then there is free will present and we are technically that other being being determined what to do with a controller (As an analogy since we're in the computer talk and to keep things simple) or keyboard determining what we will do next..... our destiny..... but the person making the decisions..... does he really have free will? or is someone making his decisions? How far down the rabbit hole do you try to go for understanding?

Who's making the guy in GTA run and drive? Who's making those decisions for the player making the guy in GTA run and drive?

This is all pure conjecture of course; I still don't believe that humans can control their destinies. It's unscientific think that matter has control over itself.

If you want to think scientific, then if humans are not controlling our destinies, then something is.... and if something is controlling it, then that would mean some form of intelligence at play, possibly.

I'll leave it at that for now.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy What knowledge leads to the conclusion that free will exists?

Considerable, the question comes as to what degree free will exists. Determinism vs. Liberatarianism represents the extreme cases where both ends of the spectrum are unrealistic alternatives. In reality we are neither automatons nor are we 'anything goes' random decision makers. Soft determinism, where freewill choices occur within the realms of situations where many factors partially determine the decision making process, is more realistic to explain the variability of individual choices in reality.

An interesting recent movie that gives some insight into the nature of determinism and free will is Pan's Labyrinth is a good watch.

Given freewill just means that there are situations that a choice is not decided for us totally by other factors, and we have a choice of one or more options. We may or may not give the choices much thought, or we may weigh the options and make a choice only to change our mind later and decide differently. People's decisions are under the influence of so many factors, and the result is not predicable as Plato's best choice, nor controled by personal desire as Aristotle may propose. Self-justification often creaps in sometimes and determines many cliff hangers, and that comes down to the fact that we are ulitimately responsible.

To be immoble on two feet, means to determine yes or no.

the Vedas

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Prax well of course the laws of physics still is relevant, but some were claiming free will is already predetermined by physics, but physics only explains so much, and freewill exists, within the boundaries of physics. But since our current physics doesn't explain everything in the universe 100% (Or else we would know the meaning to life and perfection) free will exists to channel ourselves to think outside of the box to start new ideas and to change our lives in how it exists....to come up with new theories and test thing within physics and understand and learn.

The fact that we don’t yet understand the driving forces in our decisions isn’t evidence for free will. It simply means we don’t know enough to make a positive claim.

Quote by: Prax Physics states that energy is always constant, so when you die, where is that energy going? Does it just dissipate into the air and vanish?

The energy which makes us up is all chemical. We know exactly where this goes when we die. See the carbon and nitrogen cycles for details.

Quote by: Prax Without free will we'd just be robots.... you'd be the computer in front of you.... doing calculations.

Well, who says I’m not? I mean what does a brain do? It takes information from the senses, thinks about them and then decides on a course of action. What does a computer do? It takes data from input devices, processes them and produces a suitable output. I don’t see much of a difference, other than in complexity and physical structure.

Quote by: Prax If we are computers doing calculations, then who put those calculations in us and decided for us what was going to happen? If someone else is making the decisions, then that would logically mean we are not really ourselves but we are someone else, somewhere else, being created by their own imagination, such as I type this post..... it's not my avatar saying this, it's the guy behind it.

There need not be someone making the decisions. A computer could be programmed to constantly repeat a task and will continue to do so until it runs out of energy or wears out its hardware. It could also be programmed to replicate itself by building more computers. Isn’t this exactly what humans do?

Of course, you might argue that there would need to be a programmer or “creator” to make the first computer. However, this argument can be applied to any theory of how humanity came to be. We simply don’t know.

Quote by: Prax So then there is free will present and we are technically that other being being determined what to do with a controller (As an analogy since we're in the computer talk and to keep things simple) or keyboard determining what we will do next..... our destiny..... but the person making the decisions..... does he really have free will? or is someone making his decisions? How far down the rabbit hole do you try to go for understanding? Who's making the guy in GTA run and drive? Who's making those decisions for the player making the guy in GTA run and drive?

He is only controlling the GTA character in the sense that what the character does is dependent on the player. However, aren’t the actions of the player also determined by the game? The buttons pushed by the player are dependent on the events in the game. As far as science is concerned, the two objects are simply interacting.

Quote by: Prax If you want to think scientific, then if humans are not controlling our destinies, then something is.... and if something is controlling it, then that would mean some form of intelligence at play, possibly.

Not necessarily. Who says control even exists outwith human perception? Control is certainly not a scientific concept; science simply deals with interactions.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Shunyadragon Given freewill just means that there are situations that a choice is not decided for us totally by other factors, and we have a choice of one or more options. We may or may not give the choices much thought, or we may weigh the options and make a choice only to change our mind later and decide differently. People's decisions are under the influence of so many factors, and the result is not predicable as Plato's best choice, nor controled by personal desire as Aristotle may propose. Self-justification often creaps in sometimes and determines many cliff hangers, and that comes down to the fact that we are ulitimately responsible.

Well, in weighing up the options we would go through a number thought processes. The question is really where these thought processes, the processes which determine our actions and therefore define ourselves, come from.

Whenever we experience something, a signal from the sense is sent to the brain and this alters the structure of the brain, forming a memory, an opinion, a thought etc. How this input affects your brain would depend on the structure of your brain, which would itself have been determined by every other sensory perception in your life. The original brain structure, before outside influences kick in, would be determined by one's genetics. No two people have had exactly the same experiences in their lives and very few people share a common genotype, which accounts for the diversity of thoughts, opinions and personalities. I would argue that the unpredictability of human actions is due to the sheer complexity of the brain rather than from some evidentially unsupported phenomenon of free will.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy Well, that would be true of anything involving free will. If our decisions were guided by indeterminate free will, our path would be still bound at least by the laws of physics. For example, you can't walk through a solid wall no matter what decisions you make. So maybe the "destinies" laid out for our lives are simply everything which does not break a law of physics. As for free will restricted to anything beyond that, I don't buy it. I mean who would put these restrictions in place? The gods? This is all pure conjecture of course; I still don't believe that humans can control their destinies. It's unscientific think that matter has control over itself.

Free will is not an indeterminate guide, it is one of the determining factors of our decision making process. There is most often a reason behind a free will choice, it is nat a predicable reason because of the options and number of possible reasonable choices i many instances. I believe that part of the evidence for free will lies in the fractal non-linear pattern of human decision making processes found in studying the statistical relationship found in many areas such as the commodity market. It is unscientific to conclude that some ghost, unknown factors, or a machine of the mind predetermines ALL our choices just because you cannot prove all possible causes of a particular choice.

The range of our potential decision making process or the limiting factors of nature and our environment are simply there. It would be a seperate aregument as to why they're there, nature, God or Gods, or maybe we are alien puppets

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Shunyadragon Free will is not an indeterminate guide, it is one of the determining factors of our decision making process.

By indeterminate, I meant not determined by environment or genetics. I should have made that clear. Although, an obvious question arises from this: what determines free will?

Quote by: Shunyadragon There is most often a reason behind a free will choice, it is nat a predicable reason because of the options and number of possible reasonable choices i many instances. I believe that part of the evidence for free will lies in the fractal non-linear pattern of human decision making processes found in studying the statistical relationship found in many areas such as the commodity market. It is unscientific to conclude that some ghost, unknown factors, or a machine of the mind predetermines ALL our choices just because you cannot prove all possible causes of a particular choice.

It is even more unscientific to explain our choices by inventing a concept for which there is no evidence. Cause and effect is a perfectly plausible explanation of our decision making processes and it fits with our current scientific understanding of the universe. Furthermore, we know that we are made of matter, and we know that matter does not have control over itself.

Now we take this free will theory; unsupported by evidence and seeming to contradict this basic scientific knowledge. Of course, one could dispute the latter claim by arguing that there is another element to human beings which we have not yet discovered and naming it free will, but why introduce this free will variable without evidence to support it and when there is a perfectly adequate explanation already?