Messages from Ariel

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Zhavric AM's beliefs are no more or less specific than the so-called "category" of allegedly 'non-omnipotent' gods which you've claimed are possible without a shred of support.

Yes, they are far more specific.

All she has to do is start using the Redefinition Fallacy to create a "category" for her beliefs and you'll have to concede they're possible or contradict yourself.

Is this 'redefinition fallacy' something you have made up?


I understand that you do not see the difference, but this is a failing of your reasoning capacity. I cannot help you with that.

Honestly, you haven't a leg to stand on here. You have no evidence her claims are false nor are you in any position based on your past performance to demand evidence.

Honestly, Zhavric, you have no clue about my stance.

Do you comprehend that
1) I have agreed with you repeatedly that omnipotent gods should be considered very unlikely because they violate known beliefs of physics.
2) You and I have never even debated deist-style non-omnipotent gods becase you cannot get past your fixation on using only your definitions.
3) I have, in fact, explained repeatedly that my belief in deist-style gods is a speculative belief, and as such should not be considered a firm belief.


We have evidence for a multiverse. We have evidence for the occurence of emergence and evolution. Given forever, how could a deist-style god not emerge?

See, like it or not, this is an argument in support of my position. Similarly, I am asking AM to produce an argument in support of her position.

[pikatore]

Then why do many of us think she's loopy? Do we need evidence apart from the outlandish things she's saying to justify our position? I stand by the false until proven true principle on this one. I don't beleive her, and rightly so.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: pikatore Then why do many of us think she's loopy? Do we need evidence apart from the outlandish things she's saying to justify our position? I stand by the false until proven true principle on this one. I don't beleive her, and rightly so.

And you have several excellent reasons to not believe her. History is full of false prophets (this would be all of them, by my estimation). Given what we already believe about such people, it is quite reasonable to apply that same belief to AM.

[Fonceai]

Quote by: CC Is this 'redefinition fallacy' something you have made up?

I did it.

I use it to describe anyone who applies a narrow definition that they can easily support/refute.

It applies to Zhavric and the way he establishes god as tri-omni so he can then disprove god and appear to be successful.

Basically, any time someone attempts to define a concept that is entirely subjective.

I also agree that AM needs something a little more substantial.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Fonce It applies to Zhavric and the way he establishes god as tri-omni so he can then disprove god and appear to be successful.

Deists and Pagans frequently use the word god to refer to non-omnipotent hypothetical gods. I don't understand why Zhavric does not acknowledge this. It is just damn strange.

I tried to accomidate him by using a different word - zorks - so that we could just skip over his semantical fixation, but he would not go there.

Honestly, I have never encountered someone with such a bizarrely dogmatic way of thinking as Zhavric.

Perhaps A.M. will be similarly dogmatic on her own beliefs. She certainly has failed to rise to the challenge. I feel this is probably a decent indication that she is a false prophet, pursuing an internal fantasy.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Captain Chaos See, like it or not, this is an argument in support of my position. Similarly, I am asking AM to produce an argument in support of her position.

I look forward to watching your stance cave in on itself when AM presents a "what if" forcing you to redefine your stance (again) or concede she is "correct".

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Zhavric I look forward to watching your stance cave in on itself when AM presents a "what if" forcing you to redefine your stance (again) or concede she is "correct".

Zhavric, you just don't get it. Discussing probabilities and consequences is not the same as a simple what if. For example, I believe in extraterrestrial life. I do not believe we have any evidence for that life interacting with humans, but I do believe that life exists elsewhere in our universe.

This is not a simple what if. This based on looking at the fact that our universe appears prone to the emergence of life. Similarly, my speculative belief in the existence of a deist-style god(s) is not a simple what if, it is based on the fact that reality appears prone to the emergence of intelligence, and that the infinite nature of the outermost dimension of time would allow intelligences to continue to develop and emerge until they achieve godhood.

I do not know why I bother explaining these things to you. You never provide intelligent replies, you just repeat your same statements. I think I must start doing the same to you, on principle.

Regarding ArielMessenger:
I seriously doubt AM is going to continue here. Her position is indefensible, and she will come up with an excuse not to participate. The alternative is for her to seriously challenge her own beliefs. Considering that she has dedicated her life to those beliefs, I cannot see that happening.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Fonceai I did it. I use it to describe anyone who applies a narrow definition that they can easily support/refute.

You seem to be confused. We already settled what the redefinition fallacy is. See this thread for further details.

[Fonceai]

"We" didn't settle anything.

That thread is a perfect example of your little habit.

I made it up, and you redefine it to twist it to your own ends.

The fact that you do that in a thread about that very topic is rather lame.

I'll clarify in that thread so you don't parrot this one into side-tracking.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Zhavric Revealed. What are you talking about CC? If you want to remain intellectually honest, wouldn't you have to admit AM's claims are unknown and could be true? If I didn't know better, I'd say you'd decided they're false and you're challenging AM to provide evidence to prove them true.

Well idn't dat da pot callin' da kettle black!

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Fonceai "We" didn't settle anything.

Oh, no. It's okay. I took care of it in that thread and the other one. You don't need to post yours. I have the correct revision. It was a good idea you had, it just needs slightly changed.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Praxius I've seen visions myself.... I've predicted things too.... (Seriously) But I ain't no prophet, nor is anybody else. I feel those who claim to be prophets, are using their new found ability to influence their opinion of things and what they want to see things as to the masses, because they feel they know the right way of things. In the end, all you have is either some crazy people, or people who actually make enough sense for people to follow them and then you have another religion fighting amongst the other religions. The more people there are out there who claim they know the way, and they're a messenger, the more confusion and divisions come about in the world community. We already have enough friggin religions blowing shit up, we don't need another. In my eyes, religions had their chance to make the world great and peaceful, but in the end they have only made things worse.

PEOPLE made things worse. Do you propose we get rid of the problem? :rolleyes:

But I thought what you said about prophets was interesting. I talk to God. He talks back. I've predicted some weird (but true) stuff and I've known things that I've had no reason to know, but I don't call myself a prophet either. I don't know that a prophet would these days.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: phoenix_fire PEOPLE made things worse. Do you propose we get rid of the problem? :rolleyes: But I thought what you said about prophets was interesting. I talk to God. He talks back. I've predicted some weird (but true) stuff and I've known things that I've had no reason to know, but I don't call myself a prophet either. I don't know that a prophet would these days.

I had dream once where I was interviewing someone who told me that SARS was caused by a coronavirus, which then came out in the news the next day! My memory could just be recalling events out of order, though.

[Fonceai]

You're married, CC.

You should know that happens all the time.

When it happens to you, you're wrong.

When it happens to your wife, you are still wrong.

[Praxius]

Quote by: phoenix_fire PEOPLE made things worse. Do you propose we get rid of the problem? :rolleyes:

Well if you did that, then there wouldn't be any religions, that's for sure..... so I'll keep that as an option

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Praxius Well if you did that, then there wouldn't be any religions, that's for sure..... so I'll keep that as an option

Let me get this straight...you'd rather destroy humanity than let religions...oh for crying out loud; never mind.:eek:

[phoenix_fire]

Wow. Just wow. Have you guys checked Ari's site? Like. Total. God. Complex. Abrahamic Arena Like this jewel. Just...wow.

[arielmessenger]

read my website. It's a whole book, I know, but if we are to engage in serious discussion you guys are gonna have to read it, not skim it as I can tell from the fact you are addressing me as female. Look at the pictures of me in the Story of Paxcalibur next time.

Ok, actually this is something new, this interest in my Biomystical Christianity belief system. I've tried to get into discussions about it on quite a few religious talkboards and as soon as the monitors see me mentioning "prophet", "new religion", "Biomystical Christianity", off I go for "proselytizing".

So, thank you, Volconvos, for letting me have free speech at least here. I think it's due to the prevalence of atheists here surprisingly enough because the talkboards where Christians and Jews post most often are the ones quickest to ban me due to my pronounced anti-Zionist Judaism, anti-Israel/pro-Palestinian beliefs.

Ok, true prophets vs. false prophets..

[rez]

Quote by: arielmessenger Quote by: arielmessenger View Post In some instances, yes, I do predict future events, e.g. I am predicting the demise of several traditional religions (and atheism!) due to historical discovery and science overturning cherished mythologies. But seeing this in our lifetimes is not something I can say will take place. I believe Israel will fold and a new Republic of Canaan will eventually replace it and "Palestine". In one of my earliest visions I happened to predict the now verified theory that birds are direct descendants from the dinosaurs. Please go to Original Biomystical Religious Experience and scroll down to the revelations section. This account btw, contains for me evidence that Muhammad, while getting many things wrong, was truly inspired by God. He, like me, sweated a great deal when the revelations came to him in mystical communion. I go into a kind of "fugue state" its called whenever a major religious visionary period strikes me. I have witnesses to this phenomena who can verify it having seen me in such periods and seeing the resultant new revelations. And like Muhammad, I am convinced an angel of God is guiding me, Ariel the Angel of Peace, the Angel of Jerusalem. (see Isaiah 29) Here are some more general prophesies from my online book, Biomystical Christianity. Please go to Paxman Prophesies. "I am going to start a thread for discussing your visions, so as not to derail this one. Please participate, I find this fascinating." Please do not ignore my response above that should have told you I am not a fortune teller. Prophesy bearing isn't fortune telling. Go to the next carnival in town if you want to test a fortune teller. Prophets are about bringing new religious revelations to the community--not about predicting which horse will win the Kentucky Derby or which stocks will rise in value. Don't belittle a prophet's work that way even if you hold anti-religious views. Respect is due from you and all of us to all those leaders in history who have held religious views and held them strongly and set a precedent for morality, e.g., Gandhi and Martin Luther King. Prophets are where these men got their moral views from, not atheists. I do want to share the unique phenomena that I have inadvertently become a part of--Abrahamic prophesy bearing. Posting on religious forums is my way of doing "market research" on how the new religious information will be received once I publish my Biomystical Christianity book in hard copy. I expect a lot of negative reaction, even hatred from the religions I criticize heavily like Zionist Judaism, but that's all part and parcel of being an Abrahamic prophet. I didn't ask for this assignment. It was given to me in my first religious conversion experience and it has taken me over 27 years of sometimes wondrous experiences, sometimes spiritual droughts and the "long night of the soul" when carrying this spiritual burden was just too much. I don't like being called crazy but I do know that is what it looks like from the outside to many people. People like me are most often found in the loony bins I know this. But what else can I do but follow this Path that Something has laid out for my life work. I was a visionary person to begin with and then became a religious visionary who's visions have connected me with the Holy Land and Native America. It happens, e.g. Joseph Smith and Mormonism. At least I'm not claiming to find Golden Tablets written by outer space Moroni, i.e. Italian for morons. Even if you think I'm nuts, there's a wealth of information in my writings about the origins of the Abrahamic religions and Christianity that you will not easily find elsewhere, some of it nowhere else. __________________

Early Warning signs of Schizophrenia

Your thought process reminds me very much of a schizophrenic patient or someone who suffers from epilepsy. Deductive reasoning exists in all people, but when thoughts and conclusions become a sensation or a feeling of absolute truth there may be problems. Paul MacLean a neuron scientist wrote about this way of thinking in his patients "During seizures, they'd have this Eureka feeling all out of context-- feelings of revelation, that this is the truth, the absolute truth, and nothing but the truth." "You know what bugs me most about the brain? It's that the limbic system, this primitive brain that can neither read nor write, provides us with the feeling of what is real, true, and important." The limbic system is a spot in the brain that involves emotion and motivation which coexists with memory. Many patients such as a schizophrenic will get these euphoric type of experiences and be convinced that they are true no matter how irrational they really are.

Ariel's deductive reasoning is logical and articulate, however, the sickness comes in when he claims that a higher being made him it's personal messenger. Of course his magical powers only stop at what can neither be proven or dis proven. The point is, Go get help Ariel!

[Fonceai]

So what you're saying is that the only way for someone to participate in your thread is to read your book?