Scientific Reasoning Confirms God's Existence.....

[The_Genius]

Quote by: pikatore Oh, an a magical being that snapped his fingers and brought about existence seems like a more reasonable possibility? I never said that it was true, I just said it was just as possible as there being a divine creator, and therefore, you need more convinction than a sane mind can provide to believe that you are any more correct than I am when I suggest that possibility.

Explosion only brings disorder. The Big Bang was indeed magical. No matter how plan, even with the help of advanced technology, explosions will never bring order. Thinking a RANDOM explosion brought order in the universe is beyond wildest imaginations.

Oh really? I thought it was in the year 2000? The end of the millenium? If you aren't one of those theists that blindly deny evolution, you will realise that we will have easy evolved into completely different animals by that point in time (if we don't bleed the planet dry by then, so that'd be hardly in gods image i imagine.

I presume you are into fairy tales or cartoons. However, this isn't DragonballZ where Superheroes transform themselves into Apes for power. Evolution is a mere propaganda...

Time to educate yourself...

Darwinism Refuted.com

[pikatore]

Quote by: The_Genius Explosion only brings disorder. The Big Bang was indeed magical. No matter how plan, even with the help of advanced technology, explosions will never bring order. Thinking a RANDOM explosion brought order in the universe is beyond wildest imaginations.

And so is thinking that some supreme being went 'abracadabra'. You have a strange concept of what is wild.

Quote by: The_Genius I presume you are into fairy tales or cartoons. However, this isn't DragonballZ where Superheroes transform themselves into Apes for power. Evolution is a mere propaganda... Time to educate yourself... Darwinism Refuted.com

[/quote]

Don't make me puke. Secondly, open a new thread for refuting darwinism, don't throw links at me and except me to read the whole lot.

[Yasa]

Quote by: loser Secondly, where did you get the idea that 'we' would be punished forever?

I thought that's what the idea of hell was supposed to be about.

Quote by: The_Genius Explosion only brings disorder. The Big Bang was indeed magical. No matter how plan, even with the help of advanced technology, explosions will never bring order. Thinking a RANDOM explosion brought order in the universe is beyond wildest imaginations.

Maybe beyond your imagination. However, beyond mine is a magical being that brakes the rules of logic and simply created the universe.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Yasa Maybe beyond your imagination. However, beyond mine is a magical being that brakes the rules of logic and simply created the universe.

I agree at times, when we look at infinite universe, breaking rules of logic can be a possiblity. But, I am not favouring idea of creation and creator; since a separate creator would become a part of infinite creation (Universe). So there is no room for a separate magical being.

I feel, therefore, that this universe is eternal with no begining and end, just cyclic picture.:eek:

[namguy69]

Quote by: Kuldeep I agree at times, when we look at infinite universe, breaking rules of logic can be a possiblity. But, I am not favouring idea of creation and creator; since a separate creator would become a part of infinite creation (Universe). So there is no room for a separate magical being. I feel, therefore, that this universe is eternal with no begining and end, just cyclic picture.:eek:

Ok.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: The_Genius Explosion only brings disorder. The Big Bang was indeed magical. No matter how plan, even with the help of advanced technology, explosions will never bring order. Thinking a RANDOM explosion brought order in the universe is beyond wildest imaginations.

First, the scientific view of the Big Bang, if it ever happened, is not that of a big explosion. Second Randomness is not an issue in the concept of the Big Bang. In scientific concepts it represented a singularity, a state of matter and energy that epanded when the conditions were right to form the universe.

I presume you are into fairy tales or cartoons. However, this isn't DragonballZ where Superheroes transform themselves into Apes for power. Evolution is a mere propaganda... Time to educate yourself. . .

You apparently view evolution from a rather narrow religious perspective, English and science are apparently not priorities in your education. Evolution is not refuted from the bias religious perspective, It is accepted by more than 95% of ALL scientists, and 98%+ of ALL scientist within the fields related to evolution like Biology, Chenistry and Biochemistry.

Arguing by weblink is for Trolls.

[loser]

He's either EVERYBODY's God, or He's NOBODY's God Then you have a problem, as your version of god is not a universally accepted version. Throughout human history many gods have been proposed. All of them were supposed to be the true god(s).

None of that matters. God is either real, which makes Him the Creator of all people, or He's not and a lot of us are being deceived by myth and superstition. His existence does not depend upon our beliefs.

The Holy Bible is quite explicit in teaching the eternity of the pains of hell.

Untrue.

The torments of the damned shall last forever and ever (Revelation 14:11; 19:3; 20:10).

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

This verse specifically refers to those "who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."


Rev. 19:3: And again they said, Alleluia. And her [the great whore] smoke rose up for ever and ever.

I wonder how they get "The torments of the damned shall last forever and ever" from this verse?

Rev. 20:10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This verse explicitly names ONE (the devil) and possibly implies two more (the beast and the false prophet) that shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. That's it. Why? Because they are IMMORTAL beings, already...they CANNOT die!

They are everlasting just as are the joys of heaven (Matthew 25:46).

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

To a casual reader, this might seem to imply eternal torment. But it doesn't. It would be better phrased, "...into punishment lasting forever. The punishment (death) lasts forever, not some punishing (torture, torment) for eternity.

Of Judas Christ says: "it were better for him, if that man had not been born" (Matthew 26:24). But this would not have been true if Judas was ever to be released from hell and admitted to eternal happiness.

Well, He WON'T be released from hell and he WON'T be admitted to eternal happiness. He will stay DEAD! FOREVER!

The Bible EXPLICITLY contrasts the TWO possible destinations of men. Here I present two of the most common and well-known verses of the Bible:

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Destination 1: Eternal life

Destination 2: Death

Eternal punishment is death without resurrection.

Again, God says of the damned: "Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched" (Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:43, 45, 47).

(LITV)Mar 9:43 And if your hand offend you, cut it off. For it is profitable for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go away into Hell, into the unquenchable fire,
Mar 9:44 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not put out.

Once again, CAREFUL reading of the text shows a completely different meaning than commonly intepreted. Notice the contrast between "your, you" and "their". Obviously, the 'you' above is the person being talked to but who is the 'they' whose 'worm' doesn't die? Here's the answer:

Mat 25:41 Then He will also say to those on His left, Go away from Me, cursed ones, into the everlasting fire having been prepared for the Devil and his angels.

It is the ETERNAL CREATURES whose "worm doesn't die", the devil and his angels (demons). Not sinners, not humans.

The reference in Isaiah refers to the dump below Jerusalem in the valley of Hinnom. From Answers.com (Columbia University Press):

"Hinnom (hēnōm') , valley, W and S of Jerusalem. Its ill repute in the Bible emanated from the worship there of foreign gods, including supposed child sacrifice to Molech at Tophet. In later Jewish literature it was called Ge-Hinnom [Heb.,=valley of Hinnom] and in the Greek of the New Testament, Gehenna. A place for burning refuse in later Israelite times, it provided imagery for a fiery Hell in the Books of Isaiah and the New Testament. It appears as Jahannam in the Qur'an."

The bodies of dead animals and criminals/enemies were burned there and the presence of maggots (worms) were never ending.

It is a literal place where a future Lake of Fire (pool of lava) (Gehenna) will surface due to the continued rifting between the African and Arabian (tectonic) plates.

Also, "unquenchable" is not the same as "eternal". Just because you can't put a fire out doesn't mean that it won't eventually burn out. Ask any firemen.

The rest of that crap isn't worth replying to...it's the same Catholic garbage that has perverted true Christianity since the 1st century. What the RCC says and what scripture says is miles apart. Once again, one of the very main reasons why Christianity has such a bad reputation and name.

What about those who have never heard about your offer, or those who are skeptical, perhaps thinking that there must be a catch? What about those who don't accept the concept of free pies?

I'll give them another chance later (the second batch of pies). This time, they'll have no such excuse.

All that presumes the existence of gods, something the theists can't prove, something that has to be accepted on faith. How does someone "check the veracity of their words" unless they first buy into the proposal that gods exist?

Faith is all any of us have. Scientists can't prove "billions of years" or even "millions of years". You accept their words and 'knowledge' (and even your own) at face value; there is no proof of anything. You can just as easily (and logically, too) put your faith in God as you can evolution. In my POV, even easier, because God makes a lot more sense (than evolution) to me.

"Learn to think in context" of what, which context?

In the context of the POV of an eternal, immortal being.

It all comes back to "You can't believe in god until you accept (believe in) god." I'm amazed the nonsense of that statement isn't evident to everyone.

All we have is reason and logic and those things that defy both. Each person has to draw his own conclusions. Since our life experiences are as diverse as our looks, a consensus is not likely to be found.

[Jack]

Besides your interpretation of the mentioned scripture, can you offer any citations that clearly contradict the contention that unbelievers suffer eternal torment?

God is either real, which makes Him the Creator of all people, or He's not and a lot of us are being deceived by myth and superstition. His existence does not depend upon our beliefs.

I am of the second opinion. And the continued "existence" of gods is absolutely dependent upon the belief of people. Since I quit believing in gods, they have ceased being a reality for me. Nothing else about reality has changed.

Also, "unquenchable" is not the same as "eternal". Just because you can't put a fire out doesn't mean that it won't eventually burn out. Ask any firemen.

No, they're not synonymous terms. But as a former cop and one who understands English words, unquenchable does mean it cannot be put out. It does not infer eternity, but it does infer the inability to quench, or put out.

Faith is all any of us have...All we have is reason and logic...

Believers have faith, non-believers have logic and reason. They lead to different conclusions.

You accept their words and 'knowledge' (and even your own) at face value; there is no proof of anything.

You're right. We accept science at face value, not by faith. Science does not promise proof or absolute answers. It's a process of inquiry and questioning. Doubt and skepticism is it's impetus. Faith does promise absolute answers and resists inquiry and questioning. Doubt and skepticism are anathema to faith.

Each person has to draw his own conclusions.

I agree. That's why free thinking is not an article of faith. It simply encourages a person to seek answers for themselves without the threat of damnation.

[The_Genius]

Don't make me puke. Secondly, open a new thread for refuting darwinism, don't throw links at me and except me to read the whole lot.

yeah.. Truth hurts? :)

[pikatore]

Quote by: The_Genius yeah.. Truth hurts? :)

No, smartarse responses hurt. Open a new thread refuting darwinism and prepare for an ownage of a lifetime. I dare you.

[The_Genius]

Quote by: pikatore No, smartarse responses hurt. Open a new thread refuting darwinism and prepare for an ownage of a lifetime. I dare you.

Stop being childish. It takes less than 5 lines to refute Darwinsim. Opening a thread would be too much of an effort.

[Jack]

If you come here to debate and make a claim, you should be prepared to substantiate it or not make it in the first place. It sounds as though you aren't up to the challenge. I don't blame you. Bright people have tried and failed before.

[The_Genius]

Quote by: Isherwood If you come here to debate and make a claim, you should be prepared to substantiate it or not make it in the first place. It sounds as though you aren't up to the challenge. I don't blame you. Bright people have tried and failed before.

Actually, evolutionists are making a claim; wild claims without any evidence. The website on my sig refutes evolution conclusively.

[pikatore]

Quote by: The_Genius Stop being childish. It takes less than 5 lines to refute Darwinsim. Opening a thread would be too much of an effort.

Then why the link to the massive web page? hmm?

If it's only five lines, its short enough to be typed here. Let's see it.

[Eclipse]

Quote by: The_Genius Actually, evolutionists are making a claim; wild claims without any evidence. The website on my sig refutes evolution conclusively.

Your website does not refute evolution. It simply counters past theories here and there that may still be current misconceptions or speculations (not regarded as fullproof, this is science and they're doing the best they can with what they have) and it does so in a deconstructive way, adding nothing to the knowledge base.

Quote by: The_Genius Opening a thread would be too much of an effort.

I agree on opening another thread. That is, I wouldn't mind having a thread to discuss this.

Sorry for being off topic. Carry on.

[Yasa]

Quote by: The_Genius Actually, evolutionists are making a claim; wild claims without any evidence. The website on my sig refutes evolution conclusively.

And you make claims about god without proof, only your "reasoning".

[Jack]

evolutionists are making a claim; wild claims without any evidence.

No evidence for evolution?

...As a result of the massive amount of evidence for evolution accumulated over the last two centuries, we can safely conclude that evolution has occurred and continues to occur... The evidence for evolution has primarily come from four sources: 1. the fossil record of change in earlier species 2. the chemical and anatomical similarities of related life forms 3. the geographic distribution of related species 4. the recorded genetic changes in living organisms over many generations

Those curious and not blinded by faith can read more here.

Now if we could swerve back on topic, I'm still waiting for that promised scientific reasoning that confirms god's existence. Though why someone with no respect for science would even care about its reasoning, whether or not it supported the concept of gods, is beyond me.

[Fonceai]

@Isherwood

Just as a thought exercise, I'm trying to work out some kind of scientifically valid deduction that can confirm the existence of God.

One of the problems is that I don't know what definition of God to use.

[rez]

The Genius what is the big deal about evolution? I thought scientific reasoning confirmed god's existence?

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: The_Genius yeah.. Truth hurts? :)

No, but vague arrogant claims of truth, throwing links around like periods and comas, and jumping around on topics is trollish.

Open a specific thread and present your ideas yourself in a coherent way. Keep links as backup references and do not defer your arguments to them snd have them argue your points for you.