Scientific Reasoning Confirms God's Existence.....

[Fonceai]

You don't have to shed light on it. It's obvious to most, if not all, of us.

Response to him aside, I'm interested in what you have to say on its own, without it being directed as a response to him.

If you don't mind consolidating your point again?

[another day]

... the [actual] infinite is nowhere to be found in reality. It neither exists in nature nor provides a legitimate basis for rational thought--a remarkable harmony between being and thought....

And yet you deem god as existing on the plane of infinity, don't you? Let me guess, the laws of reality don't apply to him?

Face it, declaring god eternal presents the same logical paradox. If there is no beginning or end to god's existance, then what kind of level does he exist on? An intelligent, personified mind cannot function without a sense of time for thoughts to present themselves in a linear fashion. That is just how a thinking, egotistical, emotional mind works, as you present god to be. Without that sense of time, the mind would be reduced to a jumble of wholelistic systematic intelligence. And so, a better hypothesis is that you have a set of fundamental laws of reality that are eternal.

I know you are just going to thrown the old "god is beyond our understanding" clause at me, but try and hear me out. There is no reason to suppose a personified mind when a systematic intelligence is a much sounder hypothesis. I say it time and time again, people cling to the god concept because it presents an answer to the great question that they can most relate to. We are all earthly realm dwelling creatures with linear intelligent minds and emotions, and so we project that onto the god concept. But there are other types of intelligence. I present "god" not as a "god" but as a force, an intelligence of systems. Nature/Reality I call it.

Quote by: Destroyer "God existed forever", is the most logical answer on the origins of God and it follows from the fact that an infinite/un-ending series of events is impossible.

Just about as impossible as an infinite, unending series of thoughts inside god's mind.

Another thing, if god created the world through his intelligent mind, much like we create things, then he must have existed on a plane of reality prior to this. Or do you present that god simply summons things from thin air that he requires? If you want to support the intelligent creation type of argument, then god must have a plane, a field of reality of materials and tools to rearrange and create the universe, like a scientist in his laborotory. It makes no sense that god can simply conjure whatever he wants out of his own mind. He must have already existed in a reality with which he had intelligence to manipulate and create things, and hence cannot be eternal. Either that or you support the "god is magic" argument and that he simply snaps his figures and stars are created.

[Yasa]

Quote by: Destroyer "God existed forever", is the most logical answer on the origins of God and it follows from the fact that an infinite/un-ending series of events is impossible.

So.. how, exactly, is it possible for a being to exist eternally? Both infinite series and eternal beings are equally mind-boggling and logical/illogical.

Quote by: another day By claiming that god exists eternally, you are infact resorting to the exact same illogic as an infinite regress of events. Declaring the first cause eternal, is the SAME thing as an infinite regress. Eternity is infinity. They are one and the same. You simply replace the infinite loop of causes and events with a magical god being, who also is an infinite loop. Either way you are in a paradox. You caught yourself in your own trap, and your explanation doesn't make sense when you dig beneath the surface.

Agreed


Infinity seems to be a paradox in many cases. Also, God cannot be "determined" to exist based on logic, because our logic need not apply. An eternal being is an illogical conclusion based on logic. Proof of this god would entail proving that it exists eternally... and I'm not sure that anyone can prove that.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Destroyer It's been an argument about an attribute of God, not the existence of God.

LOL

The attribute in question deals directly with god's existence. Stop trying to evade. This thread is so hopelessly off-topic, anyway.

Zhavric's only reason as to why saying "God existed forever" is a "cop-out"

It's a cop out the same way a sky hook is a cop out. One of the attributes a sky hook needs to have is the ability to get a heavy load off the ground onto a ledge. As I explained, this necessary attribute (which the sky hook posseses) is a cop out. There's no reason or support behind the sky hook beyond "I've invented it to solve my problem".

[loser]

Where was Darwin's agenda? Where in the origins of species did he declare himself a heretic and encourage people to cast off the shackles of religion? Where did he tell people to disobey the clergy and stop going to church?

Can you say...SUBVERSIVE?

In Athena's post of a Darwin quote, you'll find your answer.

Deception usually works best when it is subtle.

You have no evidence at all.

OJ walked because of a lack of evidence.

Isn't life grand?

[pikatore]

Quote by: The_Genius Edwin Hubble had discovered that the universe expands. The expansion of the universe is so precise and balanced, that if the expansion rate was billionth of a second slower, the universe would have collapsed. If the expansion rate was billionth of a second faster, dispersing planets would start bumping into each other and eventually, the universe would have been destroyed. It is apparent that the structure and balance of the universe (planetary system for example) is incredibly precise and the plan was to make Earth inhabitable for humans.

It's also possible that this universe is one of trillions (our even an infitine amount) in existence, and the only reason we are thinking we are so special is because we haven't met any other life in our vicinity.

If we found intellegent life and UFOs and the like to be true, I think that theists would have a hard time trying to make that fit thier argument.

Quote by: The_Genius God is above laws of physics / logic

Well that blows any logical arguments out of the water.

I argue A.
A is above the laws of logic.
Hence, you can't be opposed to it due to the laws of logic.

Quote by: The_Genius Hawking proposed the concept of ‘imaginary time’, something imaginary cannot be considered as ‘truth’ or ‘false’.

What a simplistic rebuttal.
Do you know what he means by imaginary time??

Quote by: The_Genius Whatever the atheist argument is, they cannot deny that the design of the universe has no flaws.

Flaws? Maybe there's the 'flaw' that sometime in the future, the Sun is going to run out of fuel and expand, taking out the Earth with it. The 'flaw' that eventually, we as humans will run out of energy and fuel on our own planet, and it's really a fantasy to colonise other star systems, so we may go extinct with all other life as we know it. So god better have judgement day lined up before then.

Who are you, or any person, to say what a 'flaw' is in our universe, and what isn't?

Quote by: The_Genius Earth’s magnetic field being ideally suited to human life.

Or maybe human life is ideally suited to the Earth's magnetic field. Heard of evolution?

Quote by: The_Genius We can conclude that there is indeed a plan and a perfect design in place for the survival of humanity.

..... no you can't! Why do you have to assume that SOMETHING DESIGNED our universe? Sentient creation is a purely human concept, since we ourselves are sentient creators.

Quote by: The_Genius Atheists always challenge theists by saying, “Prove God exists. The burden of proof is on you.” Peoples’ belief in God / religion is very old. Atheism is new compare to theism. It’s massive rise has only been noticed since the beginning of the19th century. Since atheists are the ones with a new concept or argument, they should be the ones to ‘prove’ why the age-old concept of God is wrong. Billions of people believe God exist and they have believed such from a long time. If atheists – new dudes in the block - do not agree, they should try to disprove the notion in the first place.

Absolute rubbish. Tribes in Africa and South America believe in thier own plethora of deities and myths, you are saying I have to disprove thiers because my concept is the new one? come on, I've heard better.

Quote by: The_Genius A servant does not challenging his/her master; in this case, it is the Creator of all things.

Oh i see. That makes it alright then. I don't need proof, since it would be rude to ask of it...?

Well, in this case, since so many people are skeptical of your gods' existence, and there are numerous religions taking effect around the world, it would make sense for this god to realise that and do SOMETHING to prove that this god is in fact real, and the others are made up. Until then, the world will always be divided by religion.

Quote by: The_Genius the signature of the Intelligent Designer is all over the universe.

A ridiculous claim.

Sorry, I don't think scientific reasoning confirms your god's existence. You done little to convince me otherwise.

[loser]

How dare you! Who do you think you are to claim such a learned man stupid and ignorant?

One of the wisest person to have ever walked on the face of the planet! But it really doesn't matter what I think. I dare because it's true...CD didn't have a clue! Sorry it makes you boo-hoo.

What are your qualifications as a person with knowledge and good judgement?

God, you ask tough questions!

My qualifications as a person with knowledge is top notch: Mensa Four Sigma caliber with a voracious appetite for knowledge who has probably ingested a lot of the same garbage that you have (though I didn't swallow, I spit most of it out).

I probably have fallen down a bit with good judgment. Obviously, so have you (considering your effrontery over my affront of CD).

Lighten up...he was just a man...and not a very intelligent man, at that. If you were impressed by him, I should have your toes curling in no time (though my arrogance may put you off a bit at first). Of course, since you can't see my mischievous and intoxicating smile, I'll have to try and melt you with my buttery mouth.

Or not.

Why should anyone pay attention to your opinion?

1) God

2) Son of Man

3) Me

Next question...

He questioned why one belief should be considered more true than another, and so do I.

1) President Bush is a GENIUS!

2) President Bush is an IDIOT!

1, 2, 1, 2...yeah, I see what you mean...

Darwin gives an excellent for explanation of why natural selection would result in more pleasure than suffering, and therefore, the idea of being blessed by a God.

? Explain, please.

I really like his explanation of why we choose to be good rather than bad..

SPEAK FOR YOURSELF!!!

Is that why we rape and pillage and take the last piece of pie?

People choose to be bad...they are FORCED to be 'good'.

A man who has no assured and ever present belief in the existence of a personal God or of future existence with retribution and reward, can have for his rule of life, as far as I can see, only to follow those impulses and instincts which are the strongest or which seem to him the best ones.

Zhavric, take note of CD's opinion of God above.

The Bible answers thusly:

Pro 16:25 There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.

A dog acts in this manner, but he does so blindly.

How special! We should act like dogs...except we won't have the excuse of not knowing better (being blind).

A man, on the other hand, looks forwards and backwards, and compares his various feelings, desires and recollections. He then finds, in accordance with the verdict of all the wisest men that the highest satisfaction is derived from following certain impulses, namely the social instincts.

Those "certain impulses" are rarely the "social instincts" that he implies. Rather, they are invariably the basest (vilest) of human animalistic impulses (like dogs).

I can imagine with high satisfaction giving up my whole life to philantropy, but not a portion of it; though this would have been a far better line of conduct.

I love this attempt at justification. Bear in mind how filthy rich he was. Paraphrased in better English, CD said:

"It makes me feel good to think how I could have devoted my whole life for the betterment of mankind through charity but since I didn't go all out, I won't do anything at all. Of course, if I had, I would have been a much better person."

Oh, well...I guess there's a hero for all kinds. As for me, CD is STILL the same ignorant, stupid, and dishonest person that he was before your protest.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: loser Can you say...SUBVERSIVE? In Athena's post of a Darwin quote, you'll find your answer. Deception usually works best when it is subtle.

Deception works best when you have a goal in mind and something to gain. you're argument smacks of desperation because you cannot prove that Darwin had any great way of gaining from his book. He was already independently wealthy nor did he seek to later on start some cult of "natural selection" where in people would regularly pay 10% of their worth to his loyal clergy.

[Zhavric]

A man who has no assured and ever present belief in the existence of a personal God or of future existence with retribution and reward, can have for his rule of life, as far as I can see, only to follow those impulses and instincts which are the strongest or which seem to him the best ones. Zhavric, take note of CD's opinion of God above.

This is a common misconception amongst theists... one that's been addressed many times over in other threads. The false dilemma you present borders on the absurd: "Believe a fiction as real or be a slave to your animal instincts." We have many more options available to us beyond delusion & desperation.

[loser]

Aren't you afraid that such remarks might reflect negatively on your own intelligence, education, and honesty?

Only from those without it.

Is that lie your own or are you just a dupe parroting what you heard from your preacher?

First, I don't have a preacher...I've never heard one that had more accurate knowledge than me. It is preachers (the modern day Pharisees) that have given Christianity such a bad name. Church haters, Christianity haters, God haters, and even atheists have one thing in common: they rarely have anything to say bad about Jesus; they all agree that the Man was a pretty cool dude (so much so that many even doubt that he ever existed).

Secondly, its going to take me awhile to find my source of information about Darwin. I'm sure that I have it saved somewhere but it will probably be easier to Google it back up again. The good news (for me, anyway) is that it didn't come from some biased theist site, else you would discredit it as unbelievable.

For the most part, what you posted in Darwin's defense is in accord with the information that I have gleaned, only differing selectively due to conflicting POV's.

... as well as a respected pigeon breeder.

There's not too many of those around anymore...

Actually, it was the idea that lineages of organisms change over time that was not original with Darwin. But that is just one of the theories in On The Origin Of Species. The others are original with Darwin. For example, gradualism, population speciation, and of course, common descent. But his most famous theory was that of natural selection.

I'm not sure what "gradualism" purports but I suspect that I will gradually glean the gist of it. Population speciation AND natural selection, from what I gathered, WAS originated BEFOREHAND and not the discovery of CD. As far as "common descent", this is what pigeon-holed CD with mental illness in the first place. Could his brain have become rotted with syphillis like it happened to Freud? Could this horrible disease have been the cause of both of these men's dementia, leading them both into the realm of delusional fantasy? Whatever the cause, CD showed he had finally lost it with his earthworm-for-brains idea of common descent.

An aside question: Why common DESCENT? Why not ASCENT? Was CD saying that we have DEVOLVED from our days in the sea as jelly fish?

So my suspicions about why so many christian evangelists are rich are correct? I know that religion is big business in this country, but I wouldn't have thought that it would have been all that profitable in Darwin's time.

The RCC has always been the 'Fort Knox' of the world. The Church of England was no different.

Perhaps you can tell us about all the money Darwin made by pretending that he was religious. Perhaps you can tell us how you know that Darwin was pretending, since he didn't actually mention his religion much in his writings.

CD used religion to gain access to the Universities and to the Beagle and so on. As an atheist, he would have been unable to do so. I'll have to locate that biography of Darwin to cite it. For the moment, I am merely relying on memory.

Of course, he was pushed in that direction when he realized how useless prayer was as he watched his 10 year old daughter die slowly.

Prayer is almost always useless for the faithless. What? Do you think a person can deny God his whole life (when he doesn't need Him) and then (when he does need Him) God will suddenly answer his prayers?

I bought my daughter a car because she is family. Since CD isn't family, I wouldn't even sell him a beagle (though I'd probably give him a barnacle).

But I guess Darwin fooled them to the end since he is now buried at Westminster Abby in the Nave along with Newton, Kelvin, Maxwell, Lyell, Rutherford, and others.

Is that a sacrilege, or what?

[loser]

The false dilemma you present borders on the absurd: "Believe a fiction as real or be a slave to your animal instincts." We have many more options available to us beyond delusion & desperation.

You misquoted the "dilemma". It should read: "Believe a preordained truth as the reality or else be a slave to your deluded self (and your animal instincts). You actually have only two choices:life or death...though in your "desperation", there are many deluded paths to reach that most fatal (and final) second (and wrong) choice.

[Yasa]

Quote by: loser You misquoted the "dilemma". It should read: "Believe a preordained truth as the reality or else be a slave to your deluded self (and your animal instincts). You actually have only two choices:life or death...though in your "desperation", there are many deluded paths to reach that most fatal (and final) second (and wrong) choice.

And who "created" our animal instinct? Supposedly your god did. So, he gave us free will did he? Oh wait, we must choose to worship him or else we are punished forever... that's not free will, that's blackmail. Seems to me like he's pretty jelous afterall..

[The_Genius]

Quote by: pikatore It's also possible that this universe is one of trillions (our even an infitine amount) in existence, and the only reason we are thinking we are so special is because we haven't met any other life in our vicinity.

It's quite illogical to guess that there are trillions of other "universes." Because there is a big difference between 'what we have figured out for now' and your 'imagination'. You are only imagining there are other universes... although, I find it difficult to believe that your mind is even able to conprehend it.

If we found intellegent life and UFOs and the like to be true, I think that theists would have a hard time trying to make that fit thier argument.

Find it first, then come to argue...

Flaws? Maybe there's the 'flaw' that sometime in the future, the Sun is going to run out of fuel and expand, taking out the Earth with it. The 'flaw' that eventually, we as humans will run out of energy and fuel on our own planet, and it's really a fantasy to colonise other star systems, so we may go extinct with all other life as we know it. So god better have judgement day lined up before then.

Judgement Day is on that very day when Sun runs out of fuel. I doubt we will live to see that day.

..... no you can't! Why do you have to assume that SOMETHING DESIGNED our universe? Sentient creation is a purely human concept, since we ourselves are sentient creators.

I didn't assume anything, I observed in nature. :)

[Yasa]

Quote by: The_Genius It's quite illogical to guess that there are trillions of other "universes." Because there is a big difference between 'what we have figured out for now' and your 'imagination'. You are only imagining there are other universes... although, I find it difficult to believe that your mind is even able to conprehend it.

Why is this illogical? Because it seems hard to fathom? Because we don't know for sure? Because it's beyond our perception of reality and possibility? It's everybit as illogical or logical as a creator.

Secondly, I'm sure pikatore would like to thank you for the addition of "although, I find it difficult to believe that your mind is even able to conprehend it." A very necessary addition to your statement. (By the way, that was sarcasm, incase your mind didn't pick up on that)

[pikatore]

Quote by: The_Genius It's quite illogical to guess that there are trillions of other "universes." Because there is a big difference between 'what we have figured out for now' and your 'imagination'. You are only imagining there are other universes... although, I find it difficult to believe that your mind is even able to conprehend it.

Oh, an a magical being that snapped his fingers and brought about existence seems like a more reasonable possibility? I never said that it was true, I just said it was just as possible as there being a divine creator, and therefore, you need more convinction than a sane mind can provide to believe that you are any more correct than I am when I suggest that possibility.

Quote by: The_Genius Find it first, then come to argue...

After arguing with a couple here, I have my suspicions..

Quote by: The_Genius Judgement Day is on that very day when Sun runs out of fuel. I doubt we will live to see that day.

Oh really? I thought it was in the year 2000? The end of the millenium? If you aren't one of those theists that blindly deny evolution, you will realise that we will have easy evolved into completely different animals by that point in time (if we don't bleed the planet dry by then, so that'd be hardly in gods image i imagine.

Quote by: The_Genius I didn't assume anything, I observed in nature. :)

A silly comment to make, I'll disregard that. I'm here to debate, not be given dead-ended responses like that.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Yasa And who "created" our animal instinct? Supposedly your god did. So, he gave us free will did he? Oh wait, we must choose to worship him or else we are punished forever... that's not free will, that's blackmail. Seems to me like he's pretty jelous afterall..

Not so much "blackmail" as highly effective propaganda.

[namguy69]

Quote by: The_Genius At the time of Newton, science and the concept of God were not considered as conflicting notions. However, after amateur naturalist Chares Darwin examined cells with his primitive microscope and promoted the theory of evolution, people were forced to choose between science and God. The split between science and God was not only subjective but also ideological. Atheist scientists – who were influenced by materialist and positivist philosophies - conditioned themselves to prove that God does not exist. Their hypothesis were atheistic; any true scientist should have come up with a hypothesis such as “DOES God exist?” instead of “God does not exist”. Along with the theory of evolution - the most important atheistic myth - "steady-state theory" or the "chaos theory" became famous in the field of Science. However, all of these theories that denied creation were dismissed by science itself. ‘Atheistic understanding of Science’ played the biggest role in driving a wedge between Science and religion. Example- In the 19th century Atheist/Materialist Science promoted ‘Static Universe Model’, a theory (found in ancient Greek philosophy) that said Universe had always existed and it was not ‘created’. This theory was erroneous and led many people to believe the universe never had a beginning. It is a clear example of how Atheist science misled people. However, after the ‘Big Bang’ theory surfaced, we have learnt two things. 1. The universe was ‘created’ out of nothing, with an explosion. 2. The universe is constantly expanding. Finally, the flaws of Atheist understanding of Science has been demolished by Science. Most importantly, religion – long lost friend of science – has revealed the ‘Big Bang’ theory 1400 years ago. Allah (God in Arabic) said in the Quran… Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together(as one unit of creation), before We clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? (Surat al-Anbiya, 30) It is We who have built the universe with (Our creative) power, and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it. (Surat adh-Dhariyat, 47) ‘We’ in Arabic has two meanings. One represents ‘plurality’ and the other represents ‘deserving grand respect.’ It is clear that science and the concept of God can be perfectly compatible but atheistic understanding of science influences such divisions. From non-being to being Science reveals to us that cosmos came into existence out of nothing; the universe was created out of nothing and it had a beginning. Being created out of nothing is simply unimaginable by a human mind, it is actually impossible for any human to explain such unique phenomenon. Thus, being from non-being is very, very different compare to assembling objects and creating a new thing. The question is who or what can be behind this ‘being from non-being’. An Intelligent Creator? Or random co-incidences? The expansion of the universe Edwin Hubble had discovered that the universe expands. The expansion of the universe is so precise and balanced, that if the expansion rate was billionth of a second slower, the universe would have collapsed. If the expansion rate was billionth of a second faster, dispersing planets would start bumping into each other and eventually, the universe would have been destroyed. It is apparent that the structure and balance of the universe (planetary system for example) is incredibly precise and the plan was to make Earth inhabitable for humans. God is above laws of physics / logic Firstly and foremost, we need to discuss the definition of God. Since atheists do not believe in God, we may as well take the general theist definition. God is a Spirit that is Absolute; He is the all-Powerful Creator of the universe. Scientific discoveries have concluded that ‘time’ and ‘matter’ are not absolute and in fact, they came into existence after the Big Bang. Although Steven Hawking proposed the concept of ‘imaginary time’, something imaginary cannot be considered as ‘truth’ or ‘false’. However, theist argument is not as flawed as you may think. In fact, theist argument and the definition of God well complement each other. 1. Since God is absolute, He is not bound by time, matter or laws physics / logic. He is the Creator of time, matter and logic. Such things only bind His creation. 2. Explosion ‘never brings order’. It has been observed repeatedly that explosion only brings disorder. Thus, Big Bang is more of a ‘miraculous explosion’… if you consider the incredibly precise expansion rate of the universe. Intelligent design Whatever the atheist argument is, they cannot deny that the design of the universe has no flaws. It is a design of the most superior caliber. Many other delicate adjustments make this planet ideal for human life. E.g.: the size of the sun, its distance from the earth, the unique physical and chemical properties of water, the wavelength of the sun’s rays, the way that the earth’s atmosphere contains the gases necessary to allow respiration, or the Earth’s magnetic field being ideally suited to human life. We can conclude that there is indeed a plan and a perfect design in place for the survival of humanity. Astrophysicist W. Press insisted it in the simplest manner when he wrote, "there is a grand design in the Universe that favors the development of intelligent life." Again, I will ask the obvious question… who is behind this intelligent design, an intelligent Designer or random co-incidences? You may say that forces that we understand (strong and weak nuclear force, electromagnetic force, gravitational force) the universe but that is another excuse to deny the Creator. Did these forces – part of the intelligent design - create themselves? Argument For and Against Existence of God Atheists always challenge theists by saying, “Prove God exists. The burden of proof is on you.” Peoples’ belief in God / religion is very old. Atheism is new compare to theism. It’s massive rise has only been noticed since the beginning of the19th century. Since atheists are the ones with a new concept or argument, they should be the ones to ‘prove’ why the age-old concept of God is wrong. Billions of people believe God exist and they have believed such from a long time. If atheists – new dudes in the block - do not agree, they should try to disprove the notion in the first place. Evidence for God’s existence Many atheists simply say, “Show me evidence of God’s existence or why doesn’t He show himself?” It is understandable that skeptics want evidence, but if we take the definition of God into account, He is not forced to do something whenever billions of his creatures want him to do something. A servant does not challenging his/her master; in this case, it is the Creator of all things. Personal / emotional God? Atheists feel the idea of a personal / emotional God or religion is ridiculous. Well it is their choice since no one is forcing them to be theist. However, even if you don’t believe in God or Elohim or Allah, the existence of a Creator is more than possible. Tell me, how scientific does the statement below sounds? You don’t have to be Christian, Jew or Muslim to be a rational person. It is very evident that without a Programmer / Architect, these random but perfect co-incidences could not have been successful in ensuring that human life sustains. Even if you deny the religious notion of a punisher / merciless God, the signature of the Intelligent Designer is all over the universe.

EXCELLENT.......