What if Atheism was the dominant concept?

[rez]

Quote by: ByaKya Why has no one listed the soviet union under stalin and communist china under mao as two forms of atheist governments that are responsible for the most killings of humans in our entire history? the "they were communist not atheist!" wont cut it. they were both, how much did atheism hinder or more likely make it easier for them to carry out genocide? besides, they dont believe theyll be punished for what they are doing. gg

as you can see you can make yourself believe you are doing a favor for the creed you worship. People love to twist concepts to conform to their own beliefs either for "good" or "bad" purposes. I could always say "that is not what *insert belief system* stands for" hence...

Quote by: Hitler "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

[ByaKya]

[quote]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy Perhaps because it proves absolutely nothing with regards to atheism.

Just like Christianity is pounded over the fact hitler was a christian and commited those crimes, atheism can be pounded over the fact that the two biggest killers in human history were atheists!
so i find your denial of a connection quite ridiculous to say the least.

There is no way of knowing that. Hence, you can't use it to validate your view

orly ?
We know it the same way we know christianity played a part in hitlers life.
again, your refusal to see any connection is absurd.
theists would be getting it up the wazoo if stalin and mao were christian, but since they were atheists, we are suppose to forget that fact? ROFLWAFFLESCAKES

[The_Genius]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy Can you prove that atheism increases suicide rates?

Any intelligent person should be able to guess why atheism may influence suicide to a certain extent...

Here's the list of top 25 countries (very secular) with highest suicide rates...

1. Lithuania 2. Russian Federation 3. Belarus 4. Kazakhstan 5. Slovenia 6. Hungary 7. Estonia 8. Ukraine 9. Latvia 10. Japan 11. Sri Lanka 12. Belgium 13. Finland 14. Croatia 15. Switzerland 16. Cuba 17. Austria 18. Republic of Korea (South Korea) 19. France 20. Republic of Moldova 21. Czech Republic 22. Poland 23. Hong Kong SAR, China 24. Romania 25. Bulgaria

Here's the top 10 countries with highest proportion of Atheists...

1. East Germany 88.20% 2. Slovenia 29.80 3. Russia 27.30 4. Israel 25.60 5. Netherlands 24.10 6. Hungary 23.30 7. Norway 14.90 8. Britain 14.00 9. West Germany 12.10 10. New Zealand 11.50

Russia... Slovenia.... Hungary...

[The_Genius]

I will be back with new stats...

[rez]

Quote by: ByaKya Just like Christianity is pounded over the fact hitler was a christian and commited those crimes, atheism can be pounded over the fact that the two biggest killers in human history were atheists! so i find your denial of a connection quite ridiculous to say the least. orly ? We know it the same way we know christianity played a part in hitlers life. again, your refusal to see any connection is absurd. theists would be getting it up the wazoo if stalin and mao were christian, but since they were atheists, we are suppose to forget that fact? ROFLWAFFLESCAKES

what exactly is the connection? Humans will act evil no matter what...

[rez]

Quote by: The_Genius I will be back with new stats...

which type of suicide are you referring to? The suicide where you place explosives in a car and blow up some kind of institution because your god says to or the suicide where you decide it is not worth to live life anymore?

Your topic seems to be proving that beliefs and faith corrupt the human mind.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: ByaKya Just like Christianity is pounded over the fact hitler was a christian and commited those crimes, atheism can be pounded over the fact that the two biggest killers in human history were atheists! so i find your denial of a connection quite ridiculous to say the least.

What patent nonsense. “Pounding” Christianity over Hitler’s association with the religion is every bit as logically fallacious as attacking atheism on the basis of its association with Stalin.

Quote by: ByaKya orly ? We know it the same way we know christianity played a part in hitlers life. again, your refusal to see any connection is absurd.

We don’t know that Christianity played a part in Hitler’s “evil” actions. Hence, you can’t link Christianity to genocide. The same goes for atheism.

Although it’s even more unlikely that atheism was responsible for Stalin’s actions, since atheism is not a belief system which offers any guidelines upon which to base one’s actions.

Quote by: ByaKya theists would be getting it up the wazoo if stalin and mao were christian, but since they were atheists, we are suppose to forget that fact?

Your claim that theists would be attacked if Mao and Stalin were Christian doesn’t change the fallacious nature of your argument. It’s a tad immature to continue a fallacious line of argument because “they started it”.

Quote by: Genius Any intelligent person should be able to guess why atheism may influence suicide to a certain extent... Here's the list of top 25 countries (very secular) with highest suicide rates... Etc.

Simply repeating the correlation doesn’t support your claim of causation.

[Jack]

atheism can be pounded over the fact that the two biggest killers in human history were atheists!

They were also men. Is that relevant? People's attitudes toward religion may or may not have much to do with their behavior. There's nothing in atheism that encourages or discourages mass murder. If it were as simple as their being atheists, then every atheist would be just like them. Since we aren't, other factors obviously come into play in the creation of mass murderers. Simply not buying into theism provides no excuse for anti-social behavior.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Isherwood You credit atheism with far more influence than it could ever have. Not accepting the concept of gods does not automatically infer that "evil" would reign, society would come apart and selfishness would rule. Are you crediting the fear of gods as the sole reason humans behave themselves? I'm not sure what would lead you to that conclusion. Atheists are capable of appreciating this life more than theists. We don't have a belief system that assures us we'll be taken care of and those who don't think like we do will be punished for eternity for their disbelief. We value every day, since this life is the only chance we'll get to experience it. We value every other human as an equal. Atheism removes the wall of seperation between humans. We have no basis for feeling superior to or inferior to any other person. An atheist develops morals to make this life better for themselves and those around them. We don't do so in hopes of eternal rewards or out of fear of eternal punishment.

Wrong. YOU feel that way. But you also live in a culture in which any sentiment is tempered by the prevailing sentiment (in this case Christianity), either in agreement with or in opposition to. Recall my thought on how Social Darwinism would have taken over. You perhaps put a value on human life. It's not because you're atheist. It's because from what you have seen in this life and what you have been told, you feel you are right. But the school of thought that says "we are merely apes: let's try to be the dominant ape" would argue that it is right to do whatever it takes to other human lives in order to further me.

History bears me out on this one. When Social Darwinism was at its height, white men in the US argued that the widest possible gap between the spheres of the man and the woman dictated the most evolutionarily advanced race. This was the reason used to trample upon the basic human rights of women. It was decided that the woman's "sphere" required complete domesticity and could not ever include such man's pursuits as politics, well-paying jobs, owning their own stuff, law, not getting beaten around, etc. And on the opposite, men were supposed to knock their wives up as much as possible and not lift a finger to help with the results. This was supposed to make the white race more evolutionarily viable. :rolleyes:

Look at Hitler. He believed that the key to the advancement of the Germanic people was to purge the genetic influence of all other races from the German gene pool. He thought that "genetic impurities" were holding back the true German race from reaching its dominant place in the world and that evolution would leave them behind if they did not achieve a homogeneous "master race". Eugenics.

Now, I would never accuse you of such thought. Nor do I say that that is contemporary atheism's rational end. I am merely speaking from a historical perspective as far as the long-term effects of a culture that had been dominated by atheism.

[Jack]

What does history have to say about Christian attitudes toward women and slaves and the effect of that on society? I submit our treatment of both groups stemmed more from our theistic beliefs than from a misinterpretation of Darwin's work. We subjugated women and blacks long before Darwin published his work.
I doubt the influence of non-belief has ever been so strong in this country as to have much effect on social norms.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Isherwood What does history have to say about Christian attitudes toward women and slaves and the effect of that on society? I submit our treatment of both groups stemmed more from our theistic beliefs than from a misinterpretation of Darwin's work. We subjugated women and blacks long before Darwin published his work. I doubt the influence of non-belief has ever been so strong in this country as to have much effect on social norms.

And who lobbied to free the slaves? And upon what grounds were the calls for civil rights brought in? If you look at all cultures that have oppressed women and held slaves, you will see that "theistic beliefs" are not the common denominator.

Besides. You're missing my point. In the context of a historical argument on what atheism would have done to society, the effect of Christianity is irrelevant. I'm not talking about that at all. l am simply giving an exposition on the likely result of atheism becoming dominant, particular to US culture from about the 1800s on.

[webjedi]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy Stalin's persecution of the church wasn't related to his atheism; it was related to his hatred of religion

If there is no God, there can be no religion. Atheism is a rejection of religion. You know this, and I'm not going to go around in circles about this. Mao, Stalin and Hitler all rejected religion, and whether they fit your conception of atheism, a book definition, something you read in a pamphlet, or whether you can contrive a legalistic argument supporting that they are not technically atheist doesn't change the fact that their actions would have been different if they had not replaced religion with their own doctrine.

Quote by: The Bacon Guy Quote by: webjedi PS: Don't insult people. I didn't insult anyone; I said the argument was idiotic. Big difference.

It's not my idea of intelligent discourse. I've read a lot of your arguments; you are smart and a good debater, don't debase yourself with that nonsense.

Personal opinions are not automatically trolling when they disagree with yours.

And conversely neither does it mean they aren't trolling just because they disagree with you. Back up what she said. Give me a constructive, rational argument that the Christian Social movement in Germany could be compared to the Christian right in America. Like I said, that's a pretty bold claim, and I think a lot of people would find it offensive if they knew how anti-Semetic the Christian Social Party was, so if you're going to let fly with something you should have a well-constructed underlying argument that brought you to that conclusion - otherwise you're trolling. You just want to kick sand in your opponent's face.

Rez, the quote by Hitler didn't show any correlation to the Christians I know and here in the U.S. that would be relevent to mass murder. He ate. Christians eat. He slept Christians sleep. What's your point? Is it because he believed in Jesus? Every single one of our presidents have been Chrisitan, and there has been no holocaust. Is it because he claimed to be fighting for truth and justice? Everybody claims to be fighting for "truth and justice" - don't you believe in truth and justice? It doesn't mean you go and kill Millions of people systematically.

Hitler did not initiate the holocaust because Jesus was crucified, and you know that. He did it because Jews were easy scapegoats for Germany's problems and it was upsetting to a lot of people that Jews were rich and they were poor (or at least that was the perception).

Comparing them to Hitler is just an insult, it doesn't indicate that their actions are the same or will be the same as Hitler's. Whatever your deep seated opinion, the Chrisitan right isn't going to comitt genocide anytime in the near future.

Quote by: Isherwood It seems as though you already perceive the U.S. as a theocracy.

That's ridiculous, I never said the U.S. was a theocracy, and it is pretty obviously not a theocracy. Our legal system was born out of the Ten Commandments, and that the Declaration of Independence laid out the arguments of John Locke and Thomas Paine, that natural law i.e. God gave us our rights, and therefore they cannot be taken away or abridged by another human. "The true [American] revolution was not to defy one earthly power, but to declare principles that stand above every earthly power -- the equality of each person before God, and the responsibility of government to secure the rights of all." - George W. Bush

Quote by: Isherwood So why is the following not the case in this country? Quote: I would venture to guess crime is lower among people who regularly attend a monotheistic place of worship than those who do not.

Please elaborate.

[Lullaby Chainer]

(Atheist's) Commentary on "Why I Believe": Why I Believe in Moral Absolutes


Atheists, humanists, or nonreligious people in general, have ethical systems based on relationships with people. That's pretty absolute. No one out there will come and save us; we need human solutions to human problems. No mythical being is out there to "love" everyone; we need to care for ourselves.

Take a morality from God. Why act in a particular way? "God said so." This is morality from authority. Dr. Kennedy believes in moral absolutes, but authority is, of course, relative, not absolute! Stanley Milgram's experiments demonstrated this quite well. Participants would accept the authority of the "experimenter" and promptly 42% would shock an unwilling "subject" (actually an actor) screaming in pain, pleading to be released and eventually not responding. Those who accept morality from the authority of God, over the connections between them and other human beings, may form immediate followings behind any alternate authorities, because they don't understand morality and how it relates to other people. So, if the leader of a country says that certain people are sub-human vermin, they follow the leader. Just like God, he must be right. He's authority.

...

• Honesty and Truth. Conscious striving for self-honesty, uncompromising loyalty to truth, integrating honesty into one's life for knowing truth and reality, are essential for human well-being, happiness, and prosperity (for individuals and society). Pragmatic compromise, evasion of truth (for example, acceptance of dogma), and parasitical laziness are immoral.
• Self-Esteem. Productive and creative actions that increase effectiveness in dealing with reality are moral essentials to the self-esteem of an individual. Nonproductive actions that diminish this effectiveness, and diminish the use of one's mind (for example, as with blind faith or narcotics usage), are immoral.
• Individual Rights. Recognition of the inalienable right each individual has to his or her life and property, is moral. Actions that violate the life or plunder the property of others are immoral.
• Refusal To Sacrifice. Sacrifice, the basis of altruism, occurs when a value is diminished or destroyed for a lesser value or nonvalue. Refusal to sacrifice is life-enhancing, and morally right. "Noble" sacrifice for a "higher" cause or no cause is morally wrong.
• Prohibiting Use of Force. Prohibition of the initiation or threat of force, coercion, or fraud against any individual for any reason is the foundation of morality. Note that actions of self-defense or protection do not qualify as the initiation or threat of force. Use of force (especially by governments or religions) against individuals, especially if the result serves the social "good" or a "higher" cause, is immoral.
• Ends do not justify means. This is true especially with respect to the use of force. All moral actions are based on principles prohibiting initiatory force, threat of force, coercion, or fraud as a means to accomplish ends, no matter how noble. On the other hand, pragmatic use of force or coercion, violation or sacrifice of individual rights for the "good" of society for "noble" ends, is immoral.

...

The Bible does not present a highly advanced moral code. In fact, despite positive aspects, it presents a primitive, crude, suspicious, sexist moral code that is becoming, to the dismay of fundamentalists, ignored more and more in modern society, and for good reasons. Perhaps this ethical system suited people in Biblical times; but they were mistaken. Sexism, racism, slavery, genocide, and superstition are always immoral tools with which to run a society. We've had the benefit of history and fine examples of poorly-run societies (the rise of Christianity coincided with the decay of the Roman empire, Christianity reached its peak of power in the Dark Ages, and today we see religion-controlled governments, like Iran, floundering with unhappy and disturbed populations); we should know better than to follow a failed moral code.

[Praxius]

To answer the original question, the first step in this kind of "Guidance" from atheists, is to realize that there is no higher power that will come and make your life easier..... what you decide in your life, guides your life, so decide wisely.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: webjedi If there is no God, there can be no religion.

Or, there is no God and atheists are right? Forgive me if I chuckle every time I hear someone spew this crap.

Quote by: webjedi Every single one of our presidents have been Chrisitan, and there has been no holocaust.

Of course not. Thankfully the US government isn't controlled by just one person, dear. :) If it were a dictatorship, I'm pretty sure atheists would have been snipped at early G W Bush.. and I'm sure our situation in Iraq would be a bit more scary than it already is.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: The_Genius What if - instead of religions - atheism was the dominant concept in this planet?

It would be a lot harder for middle easter terrorists to get people to blow themselves up for "the cause".

Honestly, we'd still have problems, but it would be a lot harder to motivate people into doing things they wouldn't otherwise do (see above). We'd still have people fighting over land & resources, but people would probably think of life far more preciously if they weren't deluding themselves into thinking some sky-god was going to give them some reward for "dying gloriously" in combat.

Countries with large atheist population also tops the chart when it comes to highest suicide rates....

I'd ask you for evidence of this assertion, but we both know it's something you made up on the spot.

So what type of morals do you have? Since you do not follow any religious commandments, what is your views on murder, adultery, suicide and crime? I'm not implying atheists are criminals. However, since you don't believe in punishment in the afterlife, what is your views on deeds that are considered as 'immoral' by religions?

It's a common misconception that morality exists only from religion. As highly intelligent social mammals, our morals come from our social biological instincts and our collective interpretations of those instincts.

Like whales, lions, canines, apes, and elephants, human beings will protect & care for their young / cooperate with allies / compete with rivals. All of our morality can be traced to these root social instincts.

Where the confusion comes from is the sophistication of our societies. Consider the American father and the father from Saudi Arabia. Both have young daughters. Both want to protect their daughters and see them grow & be happy and protect them from sexually active boys. The American father teaches his daughter about safe sex, tells her not to have sex, discusses his expectations with her, etc. The Saudi father has his daughter's clitoris surgically removed shortly after birth.

Both men are acting in a moral fashion in their respective societies. Both men look at the practice of the other as immoral.

Never forget that most religions (Christianity & Islam especially) are types of propaganda with clear doctrinal axes to grind. One shouldn't need a supernatural babysitter to conduct oneself in a moral fashion.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: The_Genius Any intelligent person should be able to guess why atheism may influence suicide to a certain extent... Here's the list of top 25 countries (very secular) with highest suicide rates... Here's the top 10 countries with highest proportion of Atheists... Russia... Slovenia.... Hungary...

I can't help but notice that you failed to provide a link to your list. Please not that this is in violation of volconvo.com rules.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: webjedi If there is no God, there can be no religion. Atheism is a rejection of religion. You know this, and I'm not going to go around in circles about this.

A rejection of religion, but not a hatred of religion and not a compulsion to destroy it. Such characteristics are totally individual.

Quote by: webjedi that they are not technically atheist doesn't change the fact that their actions would have been different if they had not replaced religion with their own doctrine.

Perhaps, but this proves nothing of the nature of atheism. Stalin was a fascist who would presumably have persecuted anyone disagreeing with him. The fact that those disagreeing with him were theists is purely incidental. It's fascism which is the problem; not atheism.

Quote by: webjedi It's not my idea of intelligent discourse.

That’s your opinion which you are entitled to. I’d just prefer it if you didn’t falsely accuse me of insulting people.

Interesting factoid--"Countries with large atheist population also tops the chart when it comes to highest suicide rates...."

Is it the atheists who are committing suicide? Or is this a classic example of the fallacy of confusing correlation with causation?

Regards
S.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: webjedi Religions originally were an attempt to influence the weather, the tides, the harvest, and so on; they had little to do with the rules of society.

It's a shame they had to not only corrupt thought.. but politics too. :[

Quote by: webjedi You may be able to present proof that satisfies the argument to your personal satisfaction, but you can't irrefutably prove it. Gravity is irrefutable, the nature of the supernatural is not.

Logic is irrefutable too. There are no square circles, I know this. I have logical proof against a self-contradicting god. I also have mountains of scientific evidence that opposes biblical flaws. I have psychological evidence that examines one's thoughts and cultural patterns, namely memes. I have moral evidence that easily bids your religion's racism, sexism, bigotry, homophobias, cruelty, inhumanity, ect as repulsive and calls, with the help of early societal psychoanalysis, your religion's validity into question.

I have logical PROOF and mountains of sundry evidence against religious gods.

So, what's your point? Are you just trying to be off-topic or do you have a point with this nonsense?

Quote by: webjedi Besides, proposing that they are so concerned about the immorality of other people begs the question: who is to say what religious people - or any people - are wrong in their deeds?

Just the megalomaniacal, racist, sexist, homophobic, intolerant, sinister, cruel, brutal, genocidal ones. It doesn't help when someone refuses medical treatment not only for themselves, but for others, in favor of attempting to summon supernatural powers to disrupt the natural causality of existence through thoughts to accomplish a deed that can actually be done with simple medicine. Prayer kills. It also doesn't help when we have people who are encouraged to think their beliefs are absolute and all others will face eternal torture. Those are the kinds of people that bomb abortion clinics and snipe the ungodly. Ew.

Quote by: webjedi Thus, the flaws of man preclude atheism as a succesful means of societal organization.

What exactly are "LAWS OF MAN"?

You're big on not citing ANY of your claims, which is unpleasant, and you're big on making generalizations, which is ignorant.

Since you aren't in favor of citing information, I'll have you know that the more advanced a society becomes, the larger the Atheistic population becomes. That's actually a fact, but I'll let you do my work and look it up for yourself.