What if Atheism was the dominant concept?

[sevendogs]

I grew up under Stalin's rule and my parents were atheists and communists. The whole society was made of people indoctrinated and specifically trained to defend atheism from religions. Yes, Stalin, KGB and Comunist rule were bad. However, since childhood, we were taught basic rules of any civilized society, actually all commandments, except one - there were no God. My parents were hard working, honest people and they were good parents. So were my schoolmates and most of their parents. There was compassion, wilingness to help among people. I witnessed cases, when found wallets full of money were returned to the owner without asking for a reward. I red and heard about crimes of many kinds, which are also known in USA and other free countries. Our dislike of Communism had different reasons, then lack of freedom of religion. Communism collapsed, because of children of previleged class, they grew up rebellious, wanted freedom of cultural exchange , free travel, access to things made in other countries and they learned the freedom though illegal radion broadcasts and sometimes literature smuggled into the country. We were well prepared to adjust our lives in a free world or to greet changes in Russia, which finally happened, indeed. Religion is not necessary for being a good citizen.

[Osborn F Enready]

sevendogs said: I grew up under Stalin's rule and my parents were atheists and communists. The whole society was made of people indoctrinated and specifically trained to defend atheism from religions. Yes, Stalin, KGB and Comunist rule were bad. However, since childhood, we were taught basic rules of any civilized society, actually all commandments, except one - there were no God. My parents were hard working, honest people and they were good parents. So were my schoolmates and most of their parents. There was compassion, wilingness to help among people. I witnessed cases, when found wallets full of money were returned to the owner without asking for a reward. I red and heard about crimes of many kinds, which are also known in USA and other free countries. Our dislike of Communism had different reasons, then lack of freedom of religion. Communism collapsed, because of children of previleged class, they grew up rebellious, wanted freedom of cultural exchange , free travel, access to things made in other countries and they learned the freedom though illegal radion broadcasts and sometimes literature smuggled into the country. We were well prepared to adjust our lives in a free world or to greet changes in Russia, which finally happened, indeed. Religion is not necessary for being a good citizen.

Great post, and welcome to Volconvo.

[Fonceai]

Agreed. Well-said, sevendogs.

[webjedi]

Quote by: sevendogs I grew up under Stalin's rule and my parents were atheists and communists. The whole society was made of people indoctrinated and specifically trained to defend atheism from religions. Yes, Stalin, KGB and Comunist rule were bad. However, since childhood, we were taught basic rules of any civilized society, actually all commandments, except one - there were no God. My parents were hard working, honest people and they were good parents. So were my schoolmates and most of their parents. There was compassion, wilingness to help among people. I witnessed cases, when found wallets full of money were returned to the owner without asking for a reward.

You are also around to talk about it, whereas Tens of Millions of your countrymen are not. Where were all the puppy dogs and rainbows for them?

Religion is not necessary for good actions, nor being a good husband, father nor citizen. However, when you add up all the people who have no higher authority then themselves or their dictator eventually you reach the overall view - and in the USSR we can see the effects of 1/2 century of atheist rule all over Eastern Europe and in SE Asia.

Furthermore, let me remind you that Communism killed >100 Million people in the 20th Century. Maybe God is not necessary for some kid to return a wallet, but atheist societies have the dishonorable distinction of being the bloodiest in the World's history.

Quote by: sevendogs Communism collapsed, because of children of previleged class, they grew up rebellious, wanted freedom of cultural exchange , free travel, access to things made in other countries and they learned the freedom though illegal radion broadcasts and sometimes literature smuggled into the country.

And where did those ideas come from? Societies in which religion were stronger, correct? In other words, you wanted what we had, not what you had. Why do you think that is?

The USA was founded on the principal that God has blessed us with this opportunity, divine providence known as "Manifest Destiny". This has been a very powerful motivator, and I submit that when Congress opens each day, and the Congressional Chaplain gives the morning prayer it reminds all Congressmen that they are there to serve God's purpose, not their own. When our President is sworn in and he puts his hand on the Bible, it reminds him he is not the most powerful force in the World, even though he is leader of the most powerful country in the World.

Our freedom and prosperity is due to our founding principals, and from my perspective the atheist nations see our success; they do not see the basis of our success.

.

[webjedi]

Quote by: belverron Quote: Quote by: Merriam-Webster Main Entry: mo·ral·i·ty Pronunciation: m&-'ra-l&-tE, mo- Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -ties 1 a : a moral discourse, statement, or lesson b : a literary or other imaginative work teaching a moral lesson 2 a : a doctrine or system of moral conduct b plural : particular moral principles or rules of conduct 3 : conformity to ideals of right human conduct 4 : moral conduct : VIRTUE I find myself torn. Should I go with webjedi or Merriam-Webster?

If you are going to be snide I won't discuss anything with you. An argument about an argument is wasting my time. If you have something to present that is logically sound you don't need to play parlor games to win the argument.




Webster's 1828 Dictionary(pre-political correctness)

MORAL'ITY, n. The doctrine or system of moral duties, or the duties of men in their social character; ethics. "The system of morality to be gathered from the writings of ancient sages, falls very short of that delivered in the gospel." 1. The practice of the moral duties; virtue. We often admire the politeness of men whose morality we question. 2. The quality of an action which renders it good; the conformity of an act to the divine law, or to the principles of rectitude. This conformity implies that the act must be performed by a free agent, and from a motive of obedience to the divine will. This is the strict theological and scriptural sense of morality. But we often apply the word to actions which accord with justice and human laws, without reference to the motives form which they proceed.

You took one line out of a ~5,000 character post, took it out of context, and used it for some sarcastic quip. This is a reasonable discussion to you? Address my arguments, the actual points I'm making or STFU.

Quote by: belverron Quote: Quote by: webjedi Furthermore, the dominant legal system in Western societies - by far the most advanced - are derived from Judaic law. The Wikipedia entry on English common law doesn't mention "Judaic" roots. I'd love to see a source for that statement, however.

I thought this was general knowledge, but fine, this will be an easy one.

Let's not forget English Common Law is not the sole source of our legal system, and our legal system has changed dramatically over our history. In Louisiana, for instance, they use French Law, and they do not have counties, they have parishes.

The laws of the United States were based upon the general understanding of the moral code expressed in the Bible, and breaking away from the rule of the monarchy was justified by invoking the name of God - THE God.

Nevertheless, English law is derived from the law enforced by (what is now known as) the Catholic church, and the rights afforded to the Protestants via the Magna Carta. The Magna Carta, of course ALSO invokes God and gives great deference to the Church.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/magnacarta.txt

Know that we, out of reverence for God and for the salvation of our soul and those of all our ancestors and heirs, for the honour of God and the exaltation of holy church, and for the reform of our realm, on the advice of our venerable fathers, Stephen, archbishop of Canterbury, primate of all England and cardinal of the holy Roman church....

And then there are etymological roots:

Online Etymology Dictionary

If you're interested, this is an article containing exhaustive research on the Biblical origins of our legal system:

Christian Heritage Ministries: Articles & Interviews

.

[RickSp]

Quote by: webjedi Our freedom and prosperity is due to our founding principals, and from my perspective the atheist nations see our success; they do not see the basis of our success..

Once again you demonstrate your total lack of understanding of our "founding principals." The republic of 1789 was a product of the free thinking Enlightenment, free of theocracy, regardless of all the fundamentalist claims to the contrary.

[Jack]

atheist societies have the dishonorable distinction of being the bloodiest in the World's history.

Those same societies were also non-democratic and ruled by men. You imply a causation that has yet to be proven. A lack of belief in gods does not solely determine the quality of a society, any more than being a theocracy guarantees fair treatment and justice for all its citizens.

[RickSp]

If the Spanish Inquistion had better tools it might have caught up with the more modern butchers. Of course, anyone who claims that Germany of the 1930s and 40 was not a Christian nation is simply denying history. Hitler was raised as a Catholic and German anti-Semitism can be traced as least as far back as Martin Luther.

Religions of all stripes have bloody histories usually ignored or denied by their followers.

[rez]

Hitler leaving Marine Church in Wilhelmshaven.

Nazi Christians having a Christian wedding with Hitler in the front row.

Hitler celebrating Christmas with his soldiers.

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

-Hitler (Mein Kampf)

[sevendogs]

Yes, religion is not for being good. During last 30 years I was learning about religious people by visiting Bible studies in private homes and in churches. I became a Lutheran, but I also visited to Pentacostal churches. There were plenty of very devoted people there, speaking tongues and dancing with prayers... One man told me that he would be "very bad" without God. Some became alcoholics while going to church every sunday. I was stunned , when Wolsh in his "Most wanted" gave tips how to find one most wanted murderer and thief: "... he likes to visit Pentacostal churches..." Our current President claims to be a believer, too. Having a faith does not mean doing good things. Rather a business as usual. Yes, Communism was bad, but it was not me and not my parents, who established it in Russia. Like every disaster opens new opportunities for survivors, do we like it, or not. Communism produced its positive consequnces, such as equal rights for women in its former republics with predominately Muslim population, equal rights to education, including teaching of Evolution. Education was more then right, it was obligatory. We also had a mediocre, but accessible medical assistance for all. Now, countries like Azerbajna, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Tajikistan are firendly to USA, do not let Osama bin Laden to run his activities, have national academie sof sciences and free arts and their women do not need to hide in veils. They have a secular middle class. Founding fathers of our country were dissidents of their time, religious, but free spirited and creative young people, no match to Bush and alike who cannot even to write his own speach. History is not measured by religious or any other ideology of individuals. This is only what happend. Even evil man Saddam Hussei somewhat liberated women of his country, because he was a socialist. Now, there is a serious threat of establishing even more nasty Islamic state in Iraq. History cannot be judged, but we can learn from it. We have one specialist on the Soviet Union in Bush administration, you know. But the Soviet Union is no more and she has no specialty as a result. She should go back to school... A few other old Bush's advisors are also historical misfits, because they learned only form cold war, which is over. They also should go back to school or better free their sits for new generation of realistically thinging politicians. Ideology makes people stupid.

[webjedi]

Quote by: sevendogs Some became alcoholics while going to church every sunday. I was stunned , when Wolsh in his "Most wanted" gave tips how to find one most wanted murderer and thief: "... he likes to visit Pentacostal churches..."

This is without logic of any kind. It is obvious most people who go to church don't become alcoholics nor murderers. You might as well say all black people are criminals. This is extreme bigotry.

Quote by: sevendogs Yes, Communism was bad, but it was not me and not my parents, who established it in Russia.

You are justifying it now. You are responsible for your words now.

Quote by: sevendogs Communism produced its positive consequnces, such as equal rights for women

The United States was the first country to give equal rights to women.

Even evil man Saddam Hussei somewhat liberated women of his country, because he was a socialist.

Except for the +100,000 women he put in mass graves.

But the Soviet Union is no more

Quote by: sevendogs Ideology makes people stupid.

Everyone ascribes to one ideology or another. You are using the term pejoratively. You are claiming to be 'superior' to others simply because they believe deeply in something. For instance, you spoke a lot of women's rights. How deeply do you believe in women's rights? Are you not are a feminist? This is an ideology.

Anyway, that's a rock nobody who is arguing about serious issues should throw. If you didn't have anything you believed in you wouldn't be on a discussion board.

.

[webjedi]

Once again you demonstrate your total lack of understanding of our "founding principals." The republic of 1789 was a product of the free thinking Enlightenment, free of theocracy, regardless of all the fundamentalist claims to the contrary.

George Washington

First Inaugural Address
In the City of New York

Thursday, April 30, 1789

Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes, and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success the functions allotted to his charge. In tendering this homage to the Great Author of every public and private good, I assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than my own, nor those of my fellow-citizens at large less than either. No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than those of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency; and in the important revolution just accomplished in the system of their united government the tranquil deliberations and voluntary consent of so many distinct communities from which the event has resulted can not be compared with the means by which most governments have been established without some return of pious gratitude, along with an humble anticipation of the future blessings which the past seem to presage. These reflections, arising out of the present crisis, have forced themselves too strongly on my mind to be suppressed. You will join with me, I trust, in thinking that there are none under the influence of which the proceedings of a new and free government can more auspiciously commence.

http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres13.html

[Athena]

Quote by: The_Genius Supernaturalists? I thought atheists are the dishonest ones since they don't have a book of morals and act / react according to their instincts (as zhavric said he does)? Well it is evident your scientific knowledge is quite poor. The theory of gravity makes good sense to me, only someone with poor scientific knowledge would argue against it. However, evolution is nothing but wild speculation. There are plenty of evidence against it.

Thank you for sharing with us that Muslims need to believe everyone is evil, just like Christians do. I hope some day you come to understand this belief you share with Christians is wrong and offensive.

[Jack]

The United States was the first country to give equal rights to women.

Nope.

* The small British colony of the Pitcairn Islands (2006 population: 50) extended suffrage to women in 1838. * In 1866 the Isle of Man became the first national parliament to grant equal voting rights to men and women, based on property ownership. * In 1869, Wyoming Territory in the United States extended equal suffrage to women. That same year, the legislature in the Utah Territory passed an act giving women in Utah the right to vote, but this right was later revoked by the United States Congress in the Edmunds-Tucker Act of 1887. * In 1893, New Zealand was the first country to introduce universal suffrage, following a movement led by Kate Sheppard (see Women's suffrage in New Zealand). Women first achieved the right to stand for public office in South Australia in 1894, along with suffrage in that state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage

Washington was a deist, thus no reference to Jesus or god.

[Athena]

Quote by: The_Genius Let's start with the "single cell evolution" theory. Do you think the evolutionist explanation of this theory is scientific / reliable? In simple words, can this "scientific" theory be proven?

And the stories about God making humans out of mud are believable? The stories begin with the Sumerian creation story and involves several Gods. The Hebrews corrected the story to say God only made Adam from mud and Eve from his rib and this happens, as does the Sumerian story in Eden. Eden is on earth and geologiest have found the four rivers, that place Eden near Iran. But the Muslims change this story again to say Adam and Eve are made in heaven and the forbidden fruit is heaven. That they were sent to a planet where we find life very pleasant as punishment. How is this believable? What does it explain about us? Why are our skins different colors? Why we so much like other animals in physical and emotional ways? Why do our children look like us and not someone of a different race? Why can we know there are genetic advantages and defects? There is a lot of science you have to ignore to believe creationism.

[rez]

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 [Baynes]

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

[webjedi]

Look, generalizations are a great refuge for bigots, but it is faulty logic.

Obviously, Hitler did not speak for all Christians, especially the ones in Great Britain and the United States.

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord. -Hitler (Mein Kampf)

List of people who assisted Jews during the Holocaust - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

• Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Zante, who, when ordered by the Axis occupying forces to submit a list of all Jews on the island, submitted a document bearing just two names: his own and the Mayor's. Consequently all 275 Zante Jews were saved. • Archbishop Damaskinos - Archbishop of Athens during the German occupation. He formally protested the deportation of Jews and quietly ordered churches under his jurisdiction to issue fake Christian baptismal certificates to Jews fleeing the Nazis. Thousands of Greek Jews in and around Athens were thus able to claim that they were Christian and were thus saved. • Father Alfred Delp S.J., an agent who helped Jews escape to Switzerland while serving as a minister in suburban Munich; also involved with the Kreisau Circle. • Maximilian Kolbe - Polish Conventual Franciscan friar. During the Second World War, in the friary, Kolbe provided shelter to people from Greater Poland, including 2,000 Jews. He was also active as a radio amateur, vilifying Nazi activities through his reports. • Bernhard Lichtenberg - German Catholic priest at Berlin's Cathedral. Sent to Dachau because he prayed for Jews at Evening Prayer. • Hugh O'Flaherty - an Irish Catholic priest who saved about 4,000 Allied soldiers and Jews; known as the "Scarlet Pimpernel of the Vatican". Retold in the film The Scarlet and the Black. • Pope Pius XII - during the German occupation of Rome he organised that Italian Jews would be concealed in convents and monasteries. Up to 1,000 Jews were even concealed at the Pope's Summer Residence Castel Gandolfo. • Sára Salkaházi - a Hungarian Roman Catholic Sister who sheltered an estimated 100 Jews in Budapest. • Andrey Sheptytsky - Metropolitan Archbishop of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, harbored hundreds of Jews in his residence and in Greek Catholic monasteries. He also issued the pastoral letter, "Thou Shalt Not Kill," to protest Nazi atrocities. • The Sisters of Social Service, who saved thousands of Hungarian Jews; included Sister Sara Salkahazi, recognized by Yad Vashem as well as beatified. • Archbishop Stefan of Sofia - Bishop of Sofia and Exarch of Bulgaria. • Andre Trocmé and Magda Trocmé - A French pastor and his wife who led the Le Chambon-sur-Lignon village movement that saved 3,000-5,000 Jews. • Henri Reynders (Dom Bruno) (October 24, 1903 – October 26, 1981) was a Belgian priest credited with saving 400 Jews during the Holocaust.

[Athena]

The United States was the first country to give equal rights to women.

That statements is wrong. One of the first things the communist did when they took over the USSR was liberate women. The campaigned for equalty and continue to say, a stay at home homemaker is a non productive member for society. Women fled to work just as US women many years later when we also destroyed the social status of homemakers. In both cases, divorce and abortion rates rose and increasingly women and children fell below the poverty level. In the US, since women were "liberated", women and children have been increasingly involved in crime and violence, but as victims and prepetrators. Whatever, this destruction of traditional values did not begin in the US.

Women in World History: PRIMARY SOURCES This article suggests key themes that dominated Soviet discourse on women in the 1930s: the new roles for women in employment, government, and education, the ongoing effort to overcome the legacies of the past, the unity of women behind the Soviet government and Communist Party, and the assertions that Soviet women were the most equal and most emancipated women in the world. Source: Pravda, "On the Path to a Great Emancipation," March 8, 1929.

[Athena]

Quote by: Dr. Ted Baehr It's time that people in the West stopped breeding self-hatred and boldly defend the biblical, religious, political, moral and cultural traditions that made Western Civilization so strong.

Oh good does that mean women get to stay home and raise children and men support them? We can return to the traditional families, and women who stay home to care for their families can enjoy high self social esteem again? That is, providing they marry well.

The arguements are getting sooooo confusing. I thought there was pride in destroying the family, and convincing all women to have jobs, and assuring men that they are not responsible for supporting women and children, as they were in the past.

[webjedi]

Quote: The United States was the first country to give equal rights to women. Nope. Quote: * The small British colony of the Pitcairn Islands (2006 population: 50) extended suffrage to women in 1838. * In 1866 the Isle of Man became the first national parliament to grant equal voting rights to men and women, based on property ownership. * In 1869, Wyoming Territory in the United States extended equal suffrage to women. That same year, the legislature in the Utah Territory passed an act giving women in Utah the right to vote, but this right was later revoked by the United States Congress in the Edmunds-Tucker Act of 1887. * In 1893, New Zealand was the first country to introduce universal suffrage, following a movement led by Kate Sheppard (see Women's suffrage in New Zealand). Women first achieved the right to stand for public office in South Australia in 1894, along with suffrage in that state.

Yup. (Same article)

The first women's suffrage (with the same property qualifications as for men) was accidentally granted (the word "people" was used instead of "men") in New Jersey in 1776.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage

Whatever the case, Communists, socialists, and atheists are certainly not credited with introducing women's rights, nor is Saddam Hussein. That was my point.

Quote by: Isherwood Washington was a deist, thus no reference to Jesus or god.

Are you serious?