Limitless possibilities of god

[Captain Chaos]

I am just saying that the law of conservation of energy does not negate the possibility of a god. If a god exists outside of our universe and is able to affect our universe, then our universe is no longer a closed system, and thus the law of conservation of energy does not apply.

[Fonceai]

Got it.

I'll leave you to it and not interject my own example of that possibility.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Zhavric That's one for "I can imagine it so it must be possible". Any other takers? Honestly, how so many people can adhere to this post-modernistic "we can't know anything" drivel is beyond me. We do not need all the knowledge in the universe to conceptualize things and we can conceptualize impossible & fictional things. This conceptualization does not prove god is possible. The challenge of this thread is to do just that: prove god is possible. Where is your evidence?

My post did not propose that "we can't know anything", Proving God is possible? Well. ah . . . I believe there id not a possible 'proof' on this issue, but . . .

I do not believe the narrow culture bound images of God held by individual religions are plausible in light of our modern perspective of history and the nature of existence as we are aware of it today, but . . .

A worldview of a more universal God that reflects our knowledge of history and the nature of the universe is possible if we are willing to accept that all religious worldviews carry with them the limits of the human perspective of God in time and place of their scriptures.

From this worldview the universe, our galaxy, our solar system, our planet, life on the plant, and the history of humanity reflect a constantly evolving, changing cycle of birth, life and death. IF there is a God, the nature of God should reflect this creation, and not the limited static ancient worldviews caught in the matrix of the past.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Zhavric This is your chance to prove god is possible. Where is your evidence?

I suppose I shouldn't be holding my breath, yes? Conceptualization =/= evidence. I can't reduce the statement any further than that. Either you understand or you do not.

Where is your evidence that anything exists outside our universe? Why have you repeatedly failed to grasp you're challenging a proven scientific law with a "what if"?

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Z challenging a proven scientific law

Which law is that?

Reference, please.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Zhavric Where is your evidence that anything exists outside our universe?

Big Bang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
M-theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Life review - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Fonceai Which law is that? Reference, please.

That would be the creation of energy vs omnipotence. None of the rebuttals of this issue hold much water.

We have the "Superman" argument wherein it's alleged the ability in question negates the raised objection.

Example / analogy:

God is real / Superman is real.
God is omnipotent / Superman is able to fly.
Energy cannot be created / Humans cannot fly.
A god would be able to create energy / Superman would be able to fly.

Neither superman's ability to fly nor god's ability to create energy change the fact both of these things are impossible.

We have Captain Chaos' ever-changing unsupported god which solves nothing. It's really no different than saying "Well, maybe Superman can't fly, but can do everything else!" After a while & enough evasion, we're no longer talking about god. Furthermore, an omnipotent god actually makes far more sense than a non-omnipotent god. CC never seemed to grasp the whole he was digging for himself as with each reduced attribute his notion of god became more and more impotent & left more and more logical holes. I'm still waiting to hear how a not-omnipotent god can manipulate energy which has always existed, where that god came from and where the energy came from... And nothing he's said has been backed up with anything beyond "I can imagine it".

So, all we have so far are deeply unsatisfactory answers that demand we believe without evidence or raise more questions than they answer.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Captain Chaos Big Bang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia M-theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Life review - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wow, while you're on such a role why don't you provide a few links evidencing your version(s) of god? All I see here is you using god-of-the-gaps reasoning. You'd really make a hell of a theist.

Have you considered accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior?

[Fonceai]

@Zhavric

I don't see a single reference in your post.

I want a reference.

You stated "proven scientific law" and now I want a reference that supports your statement.

Quote by: Z Wow, while you're on such a role why don't you provide a few links evidencing your version(s) of god? All I see here is you using god-of-the-gaps reasoning. You'd really make a hell of a theist. Have you considered accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior?

You asked for evidence and he gave you three references.

That's dishonest and cowardly of you, and your comments are rude and unnecessary.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Zhavric Wow, while you're on such a role why don't you provide a few links evidencing your version(s) of god? All I see here is you using god-of-the-gaps reasoning. You'd really make a hell of a theist. Have you considered accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior?

Another evasion, Zhavric.

You asked for evidence of things outside of our universe, I provided such evidence. You, of course, evaded that component of the argument and skipped on to something else.




Reliable direct evidence of god(s) is a different matter entirely. Such evidence does not (yet?) exist. This is why belief in god(s), for me, is a speculative endeavor. Infinite emergence makes it seem likely, to me. However, it still remains in the unknown category.

[Fonceai]

When there is a way to tap into a person's memories and see them as they saw them, like a movie with sound and sight (at least) I think there will be more answers.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Zhavric I'm still waiting to hear how a not-omnipotent god can manipulate energy which has always existed, where that god came from and where the energy came from... And nothing he's said has been backed up with anything beyond "I can imagine it".

OK...

So, you are wondering how energy can be manipulated.
Energy conversion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Humans do it all the time. Why is energy manipulation difficult to believe in? When you drive a car, you manipulate energy. When you create virtual world in a computer network, you manipulate energy. You are working with what is already there, rather than creating something from nothing.


You ask where a god comes from, and where energy comes from. Well, if we look at the various multiverse theories out there, energy would appear to have always existed. A god would either have always existed, or have emerged from some reality.

[The_Genius]

Quote by: shunyadragon Humans cannot define god narrowly in one worldview no more than a Mayfly could define the earth.

Word! Well said.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Fonceai @Zhavric I don't see a single reference in your post. I want a reference. You stated "proven scientific law" and now I want a reference that supports your statement.

Energy -- Workshop 3

The law of conservation of energy states that energy cannot be created or destroyed. While it can be transformed from one form to another, the total amount of energy in the universe remains constant. Scientists in all fields, including astronomy, biology, chemistry, physics, and Earth science use this idea every day: The total amount of energy remains constant no matter what changes happen in any physical system.

Conservation of Energy

The conservation of energy is a fundamental concept of physics along with the conservation of mass and the conservation of momentum. Within some problem domain, the amount of energy remains constant and energy is neither created nor destroyed. Energy can be converted from one form to another (potential energy can be converted to kinetic energy) but the total energy within the domain remains fixed.

The Law of Conservation of Energy

Energy in a system may take on various forms (e.g. kinetic, potential, heat, light). The law of conservation of energy states that energy may neither be created nor destroyed. Therefore the sum of all the energies in the system is a constant.

Conservation of energy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You asked for evidence and he gave you three references.

I asked for evidence of god being possible. He gave no such reference. He gave theoretical references about models for reality and other realities. This is no different from providing a link to a site about electrons and claiming they "evidence" Zeus as being possible. There is no causal link between his claim & his "evidence".

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Captain Chaos You ask where a god comes from, and where energy comes from. Well, if we look at the various multiverse theories out there, energy would appear to have always existed. A god would either have always existed, or have emerged from some reality..

Somebody PM me when CC catches on that the thread is about providing evidence for god being possible and stops with the theistic god-of-the-gaps assertions.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Fonceai When there is a way to tap into a person's memories and see them as they saw them, like a movie with sound and sight (at least) I think there will be more answers.

NON-SEQUITOR MAN!

You could have your own action figures.

[The_Genius]

Quote by: Zhavric Ten replies & not one of you has even ATTEMPTED to provide evidence for your assertion "god is possible".

What type if evidence do you want?

God's autobiography? His interview? A video tape of God? :rolleyes:

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Zhavric NON-SEQUITOR MAN! You could have your own action figures.

I think he was saying that it would be a means of recording people's spiritual experiences. This would be useful in testing them for validity. I am not holding my breath for this development to come about, though.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: The_Genius What type if evidence do you want? God's autobiography? His interview? A video tape of God? :rolleyes:

That is what I want. Until I see such evidence, I will consider belief in god to be a purely speculative thing.

If it was important - if a god wanted us to believe in him, we would.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Zhavric I asked for evidence of god being possible. He gave no such reference. He gave theoretical references about models for reality and other realities. This is no different from providing a link to a site about electrons and claiming they "evidence" Zeus as being possible. There is no causal link between his claim & his "evidence".

I love beating up on Zhavric, then gloating about it. Is this really immature of me?

Anyway...

Zhavric, pay attention now. You asked:

Quote by: Zhavric, in post #24 Where is your evidence that anything exists outside our universe?

to which I provided three references.


The phrase "evidence that anything exists outside of our universe" is not the same as "evidence of god being possible"


Do you understand that my three references were in relation to things existing outside of our universe, and were not in direct relation to a god being possible.

To state it more precisely for you, "things existing outside of our universe" is a necessary but not a sufficient condition.

I already have a thread for discussing the physics related to whether or not a god is possible. You are welcome to participate, if you can avoid dogmatic nonsense.