Pascal's wager

[Gods_Mercenary]

I really don't think God cares if you know what He is, just that you're a good person.

[Jack]

Islam and christianity worship the same God, just throwing that out there.

But the Christian god's requirements for salvation differ from Islam's god. They'd have to be considered separately for the wager.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Both require that you follow God (I.E, be a good person) I really don't see the difference, in the Quran the good Jews and Christians are praised as God's people as well.

[Jack]

Christianity claims only through Jesus can you attain grace. And since Jesus is supposed to be god as well, that creates a division between the Western and Eastern gods.

[Gods_Mercenary]

That's not the point, they both believe that a person in the other religion can attain salvation and worships the same God. Following Jesus can easily be interpreted as being good and self sacraficing, not specifically being a christian. I can pull up the statement from Vatican II that expresses that Muslims are Christian's (or at least Catholic's) brothers in worship.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Cephus But that isn't the case here, you missed one part of the equation. If you guess wrong and the grade does count, then you are taken outside and beaten to a bloody pulp. Picking a response, any response, is no better than picking no response at all, especially since there is no way to determine which, if any, of the responses is true.

No, I think I did address that. But you still at least have a fighting chance if you take a guess. Now, I'm not espousing Pascal's Wager. For the reasons stated above, I find it very flawed. And your last sentence agrees with the first flaw I cited.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Fonceai This reminds me of the Rowan Atkinson skit where he plays the Devil. It relates to this because there is a part where he says, "Yes, Christians? Please go over there... it turns out the Jews were right." If you really want to "play it safe" with your soul, just do this: Strip down all the dogma of each religion. What you have left are the morals and ethics. Lo and behold, they are all pretty much identical, with only slight variations. And none of those morals and ethics are bad things. So just live that way... just in case... maybe God gives partial credit... or grades on a curve.

According to South Park, the correct answer is "Mormonism". Oh, and Saddam got in after he drove Satan nuts.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary I really don't think God cares if you know what He is, just that you're a good person.

Define good.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary That's not the point, they both believe that a person in the other religion can attain salvation and worships the same God. Following Jesus can easily be interpreted as being good and self sacraficing, not specifically being a christian. I can pull up the statement from Vatican II that expresses that Muslims are christians (or at least Catholic's) Brothers in worship.

A.) No, no it can't be interpreted that way.

B.) I don't put much stock in what the Vatican says. Ever.

[Gods_Mercenary]

That's where society and religion come in, defining morals, Although I think there is some sort of "natural law" defined by our instincts as social animals.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: phoenix_fire A.) No, no it can't be interpreted that way. B.) I don't put much stock in what the Vatican says. Ever.

Why can't it be interpreted this way? I can interpret anything anyway I want. Unless you find a quote that says "you must believe in me as the Christ, son of God, and my divinity to be saved, and anyone who doesn't follow these details will be damned" It's subjective. Anyway, I won't worship a God who damns people just because they never heard of Jesus.

And while you may not put stock in the Vatican's words, it's the best and easiest indicator of most Christian doctrine on general issues, Catholicism being the largest denomination and all.

[Fonceai]

There is no "natural law".

Your loyalty is to yourself first. Then you may or may not choose to put the life of your spouse/children ahead of your own, but that isn't a natural thing.

Mothers that have it go through a depression because they think they are supposed to have it.

Animals that have it will sometimes eat their own young, for whatever reason.

Regardless, nothing about moral or social behavior is natural, instinctive, or inherent. It's a choice.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: LetThereBe This is primarily to the theists. The basic premise behind Pascal's Wager is that if the atheist is right he gains nothing while the theist loses nothing. However, if the theist is right he gains everything while the atheist loses everything. Therefore, even if the odds of your being correct are small, it is infinitely better to believe due to the possible benefit. Do any find this to be a valid argument?

I am a theist, sort of, but most Christians only consider Christians as theists, because they consider other religions like Islam and Baha'i as not believing in the personal God of Christianity.

Pascals wager is problematic, because of the contorted divided contradictory claims of the many variations of ancient religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam. There are so many possible choices even within theism, such as the claims of many different churches that claim exclusive rights to salvation, the many divisions of Islam, some different choices in Judaism that cause some Jews to call other Jews as heratics and worse. Then again the more ancient rleigions of the Vedic cultures may be the true way, such as the messiah Krishna or possibly one of the later various ways promoted by Buddha or the Tao, as the way to salvation (Yes, despite Christian protests Buddhism and Taoism teach a journey in the afterlife that rewards the one who choses the right path. The choices are so many that the value of the Pascals Wager becomes too diluted to be of value. The atheist and possibly agnostics have the option of a clear sincere choice they believe that may be more honest than many theists making outragious arogant claims of exclusivity based on limited ancient worldviews and condemning all others who do not believe as they do.

Pascals Wager makes religious choices a cross between a game of dice and playing chicken with the poker deck of fear.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Other animals have instincts on how to act socially, why not us? are we special?

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Why can't it be interpreted this way? I can interpret anything anyway I want. Unless you find a quote that says "you must believe in me as the Christ, son of God, and my divinity to be saved, and anyone who doesn't follow these details will be damned" It's subjective. Anyway, I won't worship a God who damns people just because they never heard of Jesus. And while you may not put stock in the Vatican's words, it's the best and easiest indicator of most Christian doctrine on general issues, Catholicism being the largest denomination and all.

Quote by: John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

And no, your last paragraph is not true at all. For you to say something like that indicates a rather great lack of knowledge on the subject.

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Gods_M Other animals have instincts on how to act socially, why not us? are we special?

You sure about that?

The difference between animals and humans is that animals have retained their ability to instinctive differentiate between what they want and what they need.

"Wild" animals retain their instincts to "be fruitful and multiply" and to ensure that their progeny survives. While some watch a mother animal dying to defend her children and call it moral sacrifice, others can see it as instinct fighting to ensure that that DNA survives.

Funny thing, that there DNA. Creates instincts in a creature to make sure it survives long enough to multiply, then to do everything possible to make sure the later version of DNA in the babies is passed on as well.

As far as social behavior, animals have a better instinct that basically states, "Is it worth it?"

People are assholes to each other because they choose to be. Your instinct is to perceive conflict resolution based on your strengths. Evasive personalities in people and fast runners in animals are prone to the Flight reflex. Confrontational personalities in people and predatory animals are prone to the Fight reflex. But for animals, Fight means death.

An animal instinctively decides if the fight is worth its life. If the threat is not fatal to itself or its progeny, the animal usually doesn't fight.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Pheonix, Catholicism is the largest denomination. Other than the bible, which is hard to interpret for a non-believer, the Vatican speaks for the largest amount of Christians anyone can claim to speak for.

Roman Catholic Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Catholic Church is the largest Christian Church and the largest organized body of any world religion.

As I said before, if you see Jesus as the path of Good, than anybody who is good is following Jesus.

[LetThereBe]

Hmmm...

None wish to comment on whether Pascal's Wager is actually an argument opposed to all known religion, basede on the quality of the afterlife?

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Pheonix, Catholicism is the largest denomination. Other than the bible, which is hard to interpret for a non-believer, the Vatican speaks for the largest amount of Christians anyone can claim to speak for. Roman Catholic Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia As I said before, if you see Jesus as the path of Good, than anybody who is good is following Jesus.

I wasn't arguing with your denomination argument, although that is far woolier than you imply. I was arguing with the idea that Catholicism can be seen to speak for all Christians. To the Protestant, that is about equal to saying that Gnosticism can speak for all of Christianity. And if some on this board are to believed, there was a time when you probably would have made that argument.

[Gods_Mercenary]

I never said it could speak for all Christians, just that the vatican is the easiest source to go to to find out what many christians believe, considering it is head of the largest denomination and is very centralized.