Where Did the Idea of Gods Come From?

[Fonceai]

The topic says it all.

A popular argument against the existence of any of the religious gods, or gods in general, is that they were created by humans. Therefore, they are fiction.

But then, where did the first man get the idea of god?

This is not a thread about whether or not god exists or is real.

This is a thought exercise to take an idea common to this site and go to the next level beneath it.

I strongly encourage serious responses only.

The only slight alteration that is relevant is to wonder what inspired the Patient Zero of anything we hold as fantasy and fiction:

Dragons, Fairies, Magic, God, etc.

All of them deemed fiction.

Yet I would argue that they are too complex to have been completely imaginary, especially something like god that requires such an elaborate leap.

[Kamehameha34]

..something like god that requires such an elaborate leap.

How do you figure?

[Osborn F Enready]

I think the notion of god comes from people trapped in a natural reality trying to equate an "overall purpose" for life (for the purposes of societal construct, as well as a, locally, socially acceptable explanation for the unexplainable (at that time, most of which has been clearly explained by science now.) such as massive natural events, or viewable events in space (like shooting stars, comets, meteor showers, volcanos, flood, drought, etc.)

Some call nature a god, and of all the "god" theories abound, I would say nature is about as close to a tangible definition of "god" there is.

[Fonceai]

Were humans born aware of god?

No.

How does any human learn about god?

Told by another human.

That implies a Patient Zero, the first human to share the idea.

What makes more sense...:

1. A human being philosophizes that there is some kind of human out there that made everything. These humans didn't even understand how to grow plants efficiently, but they philosophized that there was a higher being.

2. God was somehow revealed to one or more humans.

[Fonceai]

@Osborn

But what about the first person to conceive of god. Why would they have that idea?

[Kamehameha34]

Quote by: Fonceai Were humans born aware of god? No. How does any human learn about god? Told by another human. That implies a Patient Zero, the first human to share the idea. What makes more sense...: 1. A human being philosophizes that there is some kind of human out there that made everything. These humans didn't even understand how to grow plants efficiently, but they philosophized that there was a higher being. 2. God was somehow revealed to one or more humans.

It hardly takes an advanced philosphical mind.

"Water fall from sky. Big man in sky make water. Ug drink water."

[Praxius]

Maybe God made the concept of God.... you know? Send a bunch of angels down, they tell everybody the low down, bob's your uncle.

[rcne]

It started with Neanderthal burials and a belief in shamanism. Then to ancestor worship and the addition of Gods of nature.

From there tribes and kingship, where the king was also the high priest who talked directly to god. This lead to the Pharaohs who were God on Earth. That lead to the semi-divine and a slew of half gods in addition to all the other lesser gods.

From this polytheism, monotheism arose where God was separate and removed from earth and only spoke to men through dreams with a promise of a better life in the afterworld.

Now we have thousands of visionaries, each claiming direct knowledge of what god wants.

We were better off with ancestor worship.

[Osborn F Enready]

Fonceai said: But what about the first person to conceive of god. Why would they have that idea?

Social observance, and the beginnings of individual vs societal logic.

People as individuals have a quest for tangible reality, since their biggest skeptic is themselves. When tangible reality fails to provide an answer, people are quick to assume an answer as right for the problem as more and more people subscribe to it, whether it has a basis in reality or not. Often times, if people of like social class and or societal class subscribe to a theory, they can often win more subscribers if they "welcome them in" with reassurance that the masses support it, so how could it be wrong? Do you think your mind is greater than all of our collective minds, which have thought about this? Of course not old friend, side with us, your brothers of equal disposition.

There are many times when logic was beaten down by belief, but always logic is resurrected as being right, in the long run. (Religious public stonings of supposed witches and "non-believers").

The masses control perception to some degree, usually through the "haves vs have-nots arguments, them vs us scenarios", and polarization is the tool for this.

I think religion was the first example of individually created, polarization tool used to create a society, or "state". Its not natural, and is quite un-natural since it sets instinct and reality to the side based on created laws that oppose nature in some instances.

So, I would say the first people to "ordain" a god with mass faith was probably a person seeking societal power, based on things that had no individual accountability, thereby, a master stroke of attaining power without personal sacrifice to achieve it, and a lack of accountability as the minister of power.

[Critter]

IIRC, the writings of the ancient Sumerians talked of God coming to Earth in a rocketship, aka "Chariot of fire".

[Cephus]

Gods are easy to explain.

Primitive man saw lightning hit a tree, they had no idea what happened, but they were scared out of their minds. They couldn't explain it so they blamed it on a god. They sacrificed things to the god to keep it happy and over time, a clergy sprung up to teach people how to make the god happy so it didn't strike you with lightning. Once the clergy got entrenched in power, it had a vested interest in remaining powerful so out came all the rules and regulations and things you had to do, otherwise the big, bad god will smite you.

In the end, there was never a god at all, it was just a bolt of lightning and a lot of human imagination and power-grabbing.

[rez]

Quote by: Cephus Gods are easy to explain. Primitive man saw lightning hit a tree, they had no idea what happened, but they were scared out of their minds. They couldn't explain it so they blamed it on a god. They sacrificed things to the god to keep it happy and over time, a clergy sprung up to teach people how to make the god happy so it didn't strike you with lightning. Once the clergy got entrenched in power, it had a vested interest in remaining powerful so out came all the rules and regulations and things you had to do, otherwise the big, bad god will smite you. In the end, there was never a god at all, it was just a bolt of lightning and a lot of human imagination and power-grabbing.

There you go Fonceai...are you content with that explanation?

[Zhavric]

A recipe for god.

Ingredients:

1 evolutionarily cultivated instinct to equate the unknown with danger (very handy for survival)
2 heaping helpings of problem solving skills
4 cups of metaphoric aptitude
1 pound of memetic communicatory ability.

Directions:

*Pre-heat oven to cave-man era where fire & stone tools are the only "technology" available.

*Introduce a threatening unknown (we'll use lightning, but life&death, origin of first humans, hunts succeeding, birthing & fertility also work)

*In a language-enabled tribal society, mix in 1 evolutionarily cultivated instinct to equate the unknown with danger. Allow to simmer with the lightning. This should cause the mix to become apprehensive, uneasy & fearful of what isn't understood.

*Add 2 heaping helpings of problem solving skills to get the batter working on resolving their fear (no one likes being scared).

*Slowly stir in 4 cups of metaphoric aptitude. This is the crucial step wherein the fear of the unknown mixes with the problem solving skills & invention / fabrication takes place. A corresponding overlapping "lightning god" (or monster or force or spirit animal, etc) should appear.

*Allow to simmer with 1 pound of memetic communicatory ability to ensure that all members of the tribe understand / absorb the "lightning god".

Slowly increase temperature as time passes onward & god worship becomes more organized into religions.




Voila! Instant god.

[Jack]

Quote by: Cephus Primitive man saw lightning hit a tree, they had no idea what happened, but they were scared out of their minds. They couldn't explain it so they blamed it on a god.

An important ingredient to your recipe (sorry, Z) is that not only were they scared, but more importantly, lightening was beyond their own power to cause. That's why they had to create a greater power than themselves to credit. The first gods must have been those responsible for the natural processes beyond the ability of early man to both comprehend and replicate.

[Fonceai]

I already knew the answer to the question... and Isherwood came closest without going over.

Quote by: Ish lightening was beyond their own power to cause. That's why they had to create a greater power than themselves to credit. The first gods must have been those responsible for the natural processes beyond the ability of early man to both comprehend and replicate.

Because humans developed the ability to retain more cause-and-effect relationships, they started to guess at causes for certain effects.

They duplicated fire no problem, but couldn't do lightning, for example.

Because they deemed that everything had a cause, and since they had the ability to be the cause, they personified the cause.

So, to simplify what Ish said, personification of causes.

"Someone had to make lightning!!"

The original God of Gaps.

[another day]

God is simply a father figure of the entire world. Our parents created us, they raised us, we see them as god's of sorts when we are young. Its the same thing except applied on a grander scale...

Dragons, simply a combination of bird, mammal, lizard.

Fairies, simply tiny little magical people with wings and magic powers.

Magic - simply our frustration over having to actually work and complete things in a logical way instead of snapping our fingers like magic.

none of this is "an elaborate leap" from what we already know. humans are creative creatures. the fact that we dream up a concept doesn't give it any credibility as being true.

as for the lightning stuff, it is personification but for a very specific reason. People like to personify that kind of mysterious force so they can attribute it to something in their human society, thereby gaining a feeling of control over the forces of the world. eg: zeus is throwing lightning at us because we are being wicked. if we stop sinning then he will stop throwing lightning bolts. It's all rooted in a need to feel like we are in control rather then the forces simply being random and having nothing to do with our animal society.

[Osborn F Enready]

Not to mention that damned eternal question...."what came first, the chicken or the egg?"



(totally jokingly of course)

[Jack]

The god of gaps is god of both natural and supernatural gaps. As science digs deeper into natural processes and helps us understand our world sensibly, the natural gaps are filled and the god of gaps is reduced to filling only the supernatural gaps. There's no risk of those being filled with anything substantial.

[Osborn F Enready]

I would totally agree with that short and sweet explanation.

[Fonceai]

Nothing substantial... yet.

It's interesting to read how we take for granted what made someone think up dragons, for example.

With the limited scope of knowledge of earlier humans, what would make them think of dragons? And in such a specific way.