Where Did the Idea of Gods Come From?

[Cephus]

Quote by: Fonceai With the limited scope of knowledge of earlier humans, what would make them think of dragons? And in such a specific way.

The original dragons weren't specific, just like the original gods weren't specific, it was just an explanation to something that they saw in nature and coming up with monsters was just as common as coming up with dieties. Once the idea was out there though, it got embellished over the years by human creativity and as various ideas from various human cultures mixed, the concept of dragons became more distinct and detailed. That's why each distinct area has it's own idea of what dragons are like, European dragons are nothing like Oriental dragons because each region had it's own distinct evolutionary path for dragon mythology.

Just like gods.

[Autolykos]

Actually, there was a species of giant lizard (like the komodo "dragon") that prowled Eurasia until relatively recent times.

Ironically, the Greek origin of the English word "dragon", drakôn, literally meant "seer", and had no connotations with reptiles.

Let me amend to what Fonceai and Isherwood have posted. It's a natural human tendency to conceptually divide the world into the Self and the Other. Obviously, the Other is much greater than the Self -- and even contains other Selves, as one (usually) comes to find out. We come to recognize those other Selves as fellow human beings.

However, a lot of nonhuman things in the Other also exhibit humanlike qualities. For example, people can move, and plenty of other things can also move. Since people normally move by choice, it stands to reason that the other moving things also move by choice. In other words, just as people's actions are under their own control, other acting things are also under the control of something. But what is controlling them? Here we must make an important conclusion -- there are other Selves that are not human, but humanlike. Indeed, the Other could be said to consist entirely of Selves, some of which are human, and some of which are not.

At this point, we've entered the realm of shamanism/animism. My explanation above has simply used the term "Self" in place of "spirit" or "force". Now, the next important conclusion is that there is a hierarchy of Selves. Human Selves occupy but one place in this hierarchy. There are some Selves that are below us, namely the things that we can control. In earliest times, this meant inert physical objects, but soon came to include fire and many (if not most) living things. On the other hand, there are many Selves which we cannot control, which can be said to lie above us. It stands to reason, then, that if we 1) can control the Selves below, and 2) cannot control the Selves above, then those higher Selves control us. Here we have come to the point of formal divinity.

One other linguistic tidbit: the word "divine" comes to us from Latin divinus, which in turn came from deus "god". However, this word for "god" originally came from an Indo-European word for "sky"! What is more fundamentally above us than that?

- Rob

[Fonceai]

All-around good stuff in that post, Auto.

Your tidbit at the end begs an interesting question... and bear with the example that sets up the question...

A large rock is seen rolling down a mountain. No cause was seen, just a loud noise and rocks falling. Since developing man came to attribute "cause" to "intent" they believed that someone pushed the rock. When they get to the rock and can't move it, they believe that whatever pushed the rock is bigger and stronger than them. Thus they believe that there is some supernatural force (stronger than they naturally knew) that lives in the mountain. They don't want that force to roll a rock to their houses, and they never actually see that force, so they just leave it presents or offerings and hope it hears them when they ask for mercy (praying). Due to nature and animals, the offerings disappear and they believe they are spared. So on and so forth...

But note that you pointed out that the words for divinity and god root back to the word for "sky".

And this is where we circle back to the original question in the topic... of all the names that they could choose... "mountain" or "water" or the location of any other apparently supernatural intents causing supernatural effects, why "sky"?

Why did "sky" become the "standard" above all others?

[another day]

What do you mean? Thats pretty obvious, though hard to put into words. The sky is somethign that is not on this earth. You can't walk into the clouds. You can walk up a mountain, swim in the water, but the sky seems like something surreal, it's the roof above us. Obviously you would look to the sky when you are thinking about god, for it is the most removed from the earth. And irrelevant because many religions did worship, mountains, water etc. Like native americans. Like auto said "What is more fundamentally above us then the sky?"...this is child's stuff.

It's kind of silly how you try to label these things as amazing. Dragons for instance, there are plenty of creatures that already look like dragons. Komodo dragons, crocodiles, other lizards, and as I already explained, it's mainly a combination of the three main types of animal - bird, mammal, lizard. And there is nothing specific about it, dragons from different cultures look very different. Some have wings, some have no wings, European dragons are evil, oriental dragons are divine etc.

Should we be amazed that characters like dwarves, paladins, knights, sorcerors, keep popping up in fantasy literature? Of course not...things were simply invented , taking things from real life and adding magical/fantastic elements to them, and passed on through people, evolving over time. Same thing with all other folklore.

[Fonceai]

Quote by: another day What do you mean? Thats pretty obvious, though hard to put into words.

It's not hard at all. It relates directly to the story about the supernatural force pushing rocks down the mountain.

Your answer makes too many assumptions based on modern knowledge. Think like they did back then. Why would the "sky" be so significant.

You got close when you said "you can't walk into the clouds".

And what about fire-breathing dragons? You're still limiting yourself to assuming these things are fantasy.

Try pretending they are real, and think about what you might have encountered to lead you to the idea of a dragon.

Also note that while European dragons are very reptilian, Oriental dragons are not. So the "lizards and crocodiles" explanation doesn't work for the Orient.

See how hard it is to put aside what we think we know and put ourselves in the place of those who don't know?

Quite the thought exercise; to try to reduce things to simpler thinking.

[The_Genius]

Quote by: Fonceai The topic says it all. A popular argument against the existence of any of the religious gods, or gods in general, is that they were created by humans. Therefore, they are fiction. But then, where did the first man get the idea of god? This is not a thread about whether or not god exists or is real. This is a thought exercise to take an idea common to this site and go to the next level beneath it. I strongly encourage serious responses only. The only slight alteration that is relevant is to wonder what inspired the Patient Zero of anything we hold as fantasy and fiction: Dragons, Fairies, Magic, God, etc. All of them deemed fiction. Yet I would argue that they are too complex to have been completely imaginary, especially something like god that requires such an elaborate leap.

God created Adam...

After Adam was sent to Earth (with Eve), they told their children about God...

Prophets after Adam kept on preaching to humankind....

The rest is history.:)

[Fonceai]

@The_Genius

Aha... touché.

I stated "where did the first man get the idea of god".

I'll buy that Adam was the first man, but you go from God creating Adam to Adam and Eve telling their children about God.

Where did Adam get the idea of God?

[Technosoul]

[quote=Critter;329818]IIRC, the writings of the ancient Sumerians talked of God coming to Earth in a rocketship, aka "Chariot of fire".[/QUOTE)

The best books on the subject are mentioned on this link (selling the books).

I have read the books and found them to be well thought out.

Amazon.com: The 12th Planet (The Earth Chronicles, Book 1): Books: Zecharia Sitchin

[Technosoul]

I think that first came the idea about spirit or spirits being within living things and sometimes in materials.

Here is one idea I came up with that is somewhat shocking if you are religious.

Historical research has indicated that one of the first animals to be domesticated was the dog. Wild dogs became tame when humans gave them something to eat. Give a dog a bone and you got a friend for life.
The primitives would tame the dogs with offerings of food and then later eat them for food, but soon it was noted that dogs can be much more useful, they can protect the owner, and can also be used for hunting purposes, and to pull snow sleds, etc.

As humans discovered the individual personalities of dogs they assumed they had a spirit (soul) - not sure of how they interperted that concept.

Meanwhile humans advanced as a culture and had to deal with weather conditions and things like volcanos and so forth. As farming became known about they needed good weather for their crops.

So someone got the idea that the weather was controlled by the Great Spirit, which we might call "Mother Nature". So they thought perhaps they could tame Her like they did the wild spirit of the dogs. They offered up burnt offerings of food to the "God" of weather, the God of the volcano, or whatever else had a more powerful "spirit" then did the humans.

Give God (spelled backwards is doG ) and you got a friend for life. So they built fires and offered up food to the Great Spirit of Nature in hopes that they could tame that God of nature to favor them. "Nice doggie". When God smelled the food cooking as it went up in smoke He partook of the offering.

Apparently the ritual worked (at least for many seasons) and so it became common practice. They had good crops, felt safer from volcanos, and better luck hunting.

As the storytelling continued over many generations the "ideas" about God and Nature also evolved into what we have nowadays.

later people donated money instead of sheep or other animals to gain the favors of God (and nature) for a number of reasons.

But it all backtracks to that first compassonate person who gave a dog a bone to munch on.

[Fonceai]

@Technosoul

LOL

I like it!!

[The_Genius]

Quote by: Fonceai @The_Genius Aha... touché. I stated "where did the first man get the idea of god". I'll buy that Adam was the first man, but you go from God creating Adam to Adam and Eve telling their children about God. Where did Adam get the idea of God?

After God craeted Adam, he was given knowledge, including of his Creator.

[Fonceai]

Bah... why not just say, "God talked to Adam"?

Regardless, that's only derived from one source.

But since this is a thought exercise, I'd say that if you can cite the source that states the God spoke to Adam, you will have proven how the first man learned of God.

Though that leaves the validity of your source, it is still valid, in this thread, as one possible way by which man came to the idea of God/god/gods.

[The_Genius]

The Holy Quran is the source...

[Cephus]

Quote by: The_Genius God created Adam...

Prove it.

After Adam was sent to Earth (with Eve), they told their children about God...

Prove it.

Prophets after Adam kept on preaching to humankind....

Well, religious con men anyhow.

The rest is history.:)

And everything you said so far is mythology.

[Cephus]

Quote by: The_Genius The Holy Quran is the source...

In other words, mythology. Thanks for clearing that up for us.

[The_Genius]

Quote by: Cephus Prove it. Prove it. Well, religious con men anyhow. And everything you said so far is mythology.

Why don't you try and disprove it?

you can't but only scream out "mythology". Very ineffective tactic..

[The_Genius]

Quote by: Cephus In other words, mythology. Thanks for clearing that up for us.

Lol... makes me laugh.

[the last man]

Quote by: rcne It started with Neanderthal burials and a belief in shamanism. Then to ancestor worship and the addition of Gods of nature. From there tribes and kingship, where the king was also the high priest who talked directly to god. This lead to the Pharaohs who were God on Earth. That lead to the semi-divine and a slew of half gods in addition to all the other lesser gods. From this polytheism, monotheism arose where God was separate and removed from earth and only spoke to men through dreams with a promise of a better life in the afterworld. Now we have thousands of visionaries, each claiming direct knowledge of what god wants. We were better off with ancestor worship.

Do you have something concrete about the Neanderthalian rituals

[the last man]

Quote by: The_Genius The Holy Quran is the source...

this book includes many weak points and many contradictions:sometimes it tells you to love people and sometimes it tells you to make war .Sometimes it tells you Jesus is only a normal prophet and then it tells you Jesus will come and save the world with his divine powers! Why it is not mohammad who save the world?and other and other contradictions....

[rcne]

Quote by: lsat_man Quote by: rcne It started with Neanderthal burials and a belief in shamanism. Then to ancestor worship and the addition of Gods of nature..... Do you have something concrete about the Neanderthalian rituals

This is one, you can find more cultural anthropological concerning Neanderthal ritual burials by using google.
Shaman Cape