Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Dr. Debate · Jan 16, 2007, 03:00 am

I have a quick question for Christians, and I don't want to provoke any irrational behavior, just asking this question.

So, you believe that Jesus is God? So you worship Jesus as your God? Correct?

My main question is, how do you worship a compilation of cells, in other words, how can you worship matter? Isn't God everything and everywhere? Aren't I God, my body that is, my spirit as well, since they are only possible through God? We cannot understand God, but God is everything and everywhere. God is my computer, because God is in it, and out of it. God makes the matter which makes up my computer, and God is the matter that makes up my computer. See, this desk in front of me only exists in our world. Matter doesn't exist to God, it only exists to us. So isn't worshiping Jesus just worshiping an idol? Think about it. How can you worship something that is just a bunch of atoms which don't exist in God's world. The atoms that make up a piece of paper are similar to those that make up a human being, which you worship. God is the piece of paper, the piece of paper is God, because we cannot understand God, and we can't limit him by saying that he is a human.

This just boggles my mind (and don't call me stupid or something, come up with something reasonable).

One more thing, if God's come down to earth as a human, then wouldn't he also go down to Mars as a martian (symbolically speaking) What about all of those other life forms out there in the universe, in that massive universe, why would God only come as a human and not come down as a creature without eyes and 20 sets of ears and a whole different structure.

Why limit God to us, and why limit him as to saying that he is a jumble of billions of billions of atoms compiled up?

Haha this is coming from a Muslim's point of view, atheists are probably just laughing it up right now (not trying to offend haha)

In short, I'm trying to say that God is beyond comprehension. He is everything in this world, and everything in this world is God. Yet we don't worship chickens, we don't worship George W. Bush, we don't worship out mattresses, we don't worship toenails, and we don't worship pocket lint.

Thanks, and again, not trying to provoke anything, just trying to have a friendly discussion.

StrongHeartsWin · Jan 16, 2007, 03:37 am

Quote:

Quote by: Dr. Debate

...why would God only come as a human and not come down as a creature without eyes and 20 sets of ears and a whole different structure.

Because Christians are beholden to their ego cast in their image. They make their imagination make him come down to them.

Technosoul · Jan 16, 2007, 04:54 am

First off you are asking why God does not visit Aliens on distant planets when we have no scientific evidence of such beings, next you will wonder why he does not come down as a talking Micky Mouse. So the answer is, their are not aliens on other planets for God to visit. They were not created as such and so your question is of non-effect. We cannot assume out of imagination that many eyed Aliens exist ( except on Star Treck ). A rather silly question unless you have proof that intelligent beings live on Mars (currently).

Humans are the only creature intelligent enough to comprehend the idea of a Creator (God) (Great Spirit). The most advanced animals are not. But if they were then humans would have problems, like in that movie Planet of the Apes.

Imagine hourses, elephants, chimps, ants, crows, and other animals being as intelligent as the human speicies. They would all be building cars and things and competing with us humans in the global economy and building statues of Elephant Gods or Ant Gods. Horses and cows would be building nuclear bombs and other weapons - why, no doubt the world would have been distroyed eons ago if animals were smart enough to communicate with the unseen Great Spirit. If pigs were as smart as people they would hog up all the food and we would starve to death. And so it would not be logical to make all the animals in the image of God with the knowledge of good and evil because our schools would get over populated with smart Asses (Donkeys).

The God is Everything is a neat New Ager concept but different then the Jewish concept. In the original version only the Jewish people were created in His Image, not the Pagans as their Father was the devil. A Christian would be more or less "adopted" through faith and out of kindness.

What difference does it make which concept you pick, the "only one" one or the "all is one" one? Jesus prayed to "our father who art in heaven" which would suggest "everyone" is part of that biological family.

Speaking that Jesus is a biological creature made up of cells and so forth and so is everything else is true, from a scientific perspective. However religion is metaphysical in the sense that that we got souls or spirits, God is spirit and that spirit can embody the flesh and blood of a person such that we become of "one spirit". Jesus was "spirit, mind, and body" not just a body with biological constructs. And so the spirit God embodied Jesus as his spirit and communicated through his mind those teachings being related.

And so the spirit became the word, because as you know we cannot worship the body of Jesus because it is not here for us to see or touch, etc. We can only worship the Spirit manifested as the Word. Nothing to do with biology or matter. To worship a painting of Jesus would be a distraction and would be the same as worhshipping a idol carved out of wood.

The knowledge about putting together words to formulate ideas is what makes us simular to the gods. And for all I know the face of Mars might be a sign that the gods did in fact visit that place to leave behind a visual message by creating that stone in the image of man (gods?).

Face on Mars - Google Image Search

Compugasm · Jan 16, 2007, 08:12 am

It doesn't matter how smart you are, if you don't have fingers to hold tools.

Quote:

might be a sign that the gods did in fact visit that place to leave behind a visual message by creating that stone in the image of man.

With all that power and ability, the best message they could devise is pile up some dirt?

Zhavric · Jan 16, 2007, 08:48 am

Once the Christians here have reasoned through the op, they can explain how Jesus was born of a virgin and is descended from the line of David.

Cephus · Jan 16, 2007, 06:15 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Zhavric

Once the Christians here have reasoned through the op, they can explain how Jesus was born of a virgin and is descended from the line of David.

Shhhh, don't confuse them with facts.

Gods_Mercenary · Jan 16, 2007, 06:18 pm

Descended through the line of david through his "foster father" Joseph, not that it matters.

arielmessenger · Jan 16, 2007, 07:03 pm

It can only be supported by blind faith in words of ancient men. All along there was a more intelligent Christian theology based on knowledge of God and not based on blind faith but it got literally buried by Pauline Christian Church Fathers when they secured the backing of Emperor Constantin. So the world only knows the Pauline Christian theology based on Paul and the New Testament writers' quite successful melding of the pagan Mystery Religion concept of sin atonement through vicarious identification with Jesus as the Jewish dying/resurrection god-man cum Messiah.

Pauline Christianity then is a Jewish Mystery Religion. If you want a Christianity where Jesus is not a literal Son of God crucified and resurrected, a Christian religious theology that is just as old as Paul's version, you must go to the Gnostics starting with the Gospel of Thomas.

Dr. Debate · Jan 16, 2007, 08:02 pm

I just don't see how you guys can worship matter, because if God is what we are meant to believe then he is everything, everyone, and everyone and everything is God.

Gods_Mercenary · Jan 16, 2007, 08:10 pm

Sure, but we aren't worshiping the matter, we are worshipping the person, not the body of Jesus. We believe that He was this "universality's" you speak of will made flesh, not that He (meaning his body) was actually is to be worshipped.

Dr. Debate · Jan 16, 2007, 08:26 pm

I know that you're worshiping the person, but actually recognizing that person as God doesn't make much sense, right?

And don't you believe that Jesus came down to earth to better understand human beings?

Gods_Mercenary · Jan 16, 2007, 08:29 pm

No, God is Omnipotent, why would He come down to understand us? We believe that He came down so that We may better understand Him and His wishes.

Fonceai · Jan 16, 2007, 08:32 pm

I always thought it was about accepting the idea of actually feeling bad for wronging another person and generally trying to be nice?

Quote:

Quote by: Gods_M

God is Omnipotent

Why bother with all of Creation at all?

Besides... I think you meant "omniscient".

Omnipotent means "all-powerful"

Omniscient means "all-knowing"

Unless you subscribe to the belief that because God created us in his own image by giving us free will, we exist beyond his omniscience. Again, think along the lines of the Dune novels and the Atreides bloodline post-Leto II.

Gods_Mercenary · Jan 16, 2007, 08:35 pm

Yes, that's the whole purpose, but some people must get hung up on the dogmas, anyway, it's not like we're decalaring each other heretics, just having a discussion to broaden our minds to each other's beliefs.

Fonceai · Jan 16, 2007, 08:50 pm

And I'm sharing that it's possible that God can be all sorts of mighty and such but still have no idea what free willed entities will do, because free will is that significant.

Cephus · Jan 16, 2007, 10:59 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary

Descended through the line of david through his "foster father" Joseph, not that it matters.

Which is stupid. You cannot be descended through the line of someone who is not your biological parent. If Joseph isn't his biological father, then Jesus is not of the line of David.

Fonceai · Jan 16, 2007, 11:27 pm

But weren't Mary and Joseph related?

It was an arranged marriage and such.

He might be of the line of David because he is begotten from Mary.

Though if you read the "Begots" section of the Bible, it says Joseph Begot (sp) Jesus.

Compugasm · Jan 17, 2007, 02:54 am

Quote:

Quote by: Fonceai

He might be of the line of David because he is begotten from Mary.

I've never heard of lineage following women.. does it?

Fonceai · Jan 17, 2007, 07:39 am

That's the strange thing...

He was Jewish, and Jews measure their lineage through the mother. It's a matriarchal religion, I thought.

So why would they measure the line of sons if they practiced a religion that was focused on the daughters?

Cephus · Jan 17, 2007, 12:18 pm

In the end, the whole story has so many problems as to make it irrational to believe, plus the fact that there is simply no evidence whatsoever for any of it. It's really the desperate faithful who need to beleive in something who keep it alive at all.

Maybe it's time to let this fairy tale just die once and for all. Religion does nothing to help humanity, it only helps humans to hide from reality. Give me reality any day.

Jan 16, 2007, 03:00 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
Dr. Debate Molten Ash Posts: 40	Question for Christians I have a quick question for Christians, and I don't want to provoke any irrational behavior, just asking this question. So, you believe that Jesus is God? So you worship Jesus as your God? Correct? My main question is, how do you worship a compilation of cells, in other words, how can you worship matter? Isn't God everything and everywhere? Aren't I God, my body that is, my spirit as well, since they are only possible through God? We cannot understand God, but God is everything and everywhere. God is my computer, because God is in it, and out of it. God makes the matter which makes up my computer, and God is the matter that makes up my computer. See, this desk in front of me only exists in our world. Matter doesn't exist to God, it only exists to us. So isn't worshiping Jesus just worshiping an idol? Think about it. How can you worship something that is just a bunch of atoms which don't exist in God's world. The atoms that make up a piece of paper are similar to those that make up a human being, which you worship. God is the piece of paper, the piece of paper is God, because we cannot understand God, and we can't limit him by saying that he is a human. This just boggles my mind (and don't call me stupid or something, come up with something reasonable). One more thing, if God's come down to earth as a human, then wouldn't he also go down to Mars as a martian (symbolically speaking) What about all of those other life forms out there in the universe, in that massive universe, why would God only come as a human and not come down as a creature without eyes and 20 sets of ears and a whole different structure. Why limit God to us, and why limit him as to saying that he is a jumble of billions of billions of atoms compiled up? Haha this is coming from a Muslim's point of view, atheists are probably just laughing it up right now (not trying to offend haha) In short, I'm trying to say that God is beyond comprehension. He is everything in this world, and everything in this world is God. Yet we don't worship chickens, we don't worship George W. Bush, we don't worship out mattresses, we don't worship toenails, and we don't worship pocket lint. Thanks, and again, not trying to provoke anything, just trying to have a friendly discussion.

Jan 16, 2007, 08:48 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
Zhavric Made of pure win. Posts: 3,808	Once the Christians here have reasoned through the op, they can explain how Jesus was born of a virgin and is descended from the line of David. Theists: supplying volconvo with lose since 2004.

Jan 16, 2007, 06:18 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
Gods_Mercenary Altruism Assassin Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,361	Descended through the line of david through his "foster father" Joseph, not that it matters. “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.” -Albert Einstein

Jan 16, 2007, 07:03 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
arielmessenger BANNED Posts: 701	Pauline Christianity is an intellectually dead religion. It can only be supported by blind faith in words of ancient men. All along there was a more intelligent Christian theology based on knowledge of God and not based on blind faith but it got literally buried by Pauline Christian Church Fathers when they secured the backing of Emperor Constantin. So the world only knows the Pauline Christian theology based on Paul and the New Testament writers' quite successful melding of the pagan Mystery Religion concept of sin atonement through vicarious identification with Jesus as the Jewish dying/resurrection god-man cum Messiah. Pauline Christianity then is a Jewish Mystery Religion. If you want a Christianity where Jesus is not a literal Son of God crucified and resurrected, a Christian religious theology that is just as old as Paul's version, you must go to the Gnostics starting with the Gospel of Thomas.

Jan 16, 2007, 08:10 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
Gods_Mercenary Altruism Assassin Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,361	Sure, but we aren't worshiping the matter, we are worshipping the person, not the body of Jesus. We believe that He was this "universality's" you speak of will made flesh, not that He (meaning his body) was actually is to be worshipped. “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.” -Albert Einstein

Jan 16, 2007, 04:54 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Technosoul Volcanic Erupter Posts: 8,936	First off you are asking why God does not visit Aliens on distant planets when we have no scientific evidence of such beings, next you will wonder why he does not come down as a talking Micky Mouse. So the answer is, their are not aliens on other planets for God to visit. They were not created as such and so your question is of non-effect. We cannot assume out of imagination that many eyed Aliens exist ( except on Star Treck ). A rather silly question unless you have proof that intelligent beings live on Mars (currently). Humans are the only creature intelligent enough to comprehend the idea of a Creator (God) (Great Spirit). The most advanced animals are not. But if they were then humans would have problems, like in that movie Planet of the Apes. Imagine hourses, elephants, chimps, ants, crows, and other animals being as intelligent as the human speicies. They would all be building cars and things and competing with us humans in the global economy and building statues of Elephant Gods or Ant Gods. Horses and cows would be building nuclear bombs and other weapons - why, no doubt the world would have been distroyed eons ago if animals were smart enough to communicate with the unseen Great Spirit. If pigs were as smart as people they would hog up all the food and we would starve to death. And so it would not be logical to make all the animals in the image of God with the knowledge of good and evil because our schools would get over populated with smart Asses (Donkeys). The God is Everything is a neat New Ager concept but different then the Jewish concept. In the original version only the Jewish people were created in His Image, not the Pagans as their Father was the devil. A Christian would be more or less "adopted" through faith and out of kindness. What difference does it make which concept you pick, the "only one" one or the "all is one" one? Jesus prayed to "our father who art in heaven" which would suggest "everyone" is part of that biological family. Speaking that Jesus is a biological creature made up of cells and so forth and so is everything else is true, from a scientific perspective. However religion is metaphysical in the sense that that we got souls or spirits, God is spirit and that spirit can embody the flesh and blood of a person such that we become of "one spirit". Jesus was "spirit, mind, and body" not just a body with biological constructs. And so the spirit God embodied Jesus as his spirit and communicated through his mind those teachings being related. And so the spirit became the word, because as you know we cannot worship the body of Jesus because it is not here for us to see or touch, etc. We can only worship the Spirit manifested as the Word. Nothing to do with biology or matter. To worship a painting of Jesus would be a distraction and would be the same as worhshipping a idol carved out of wood. The knowledge about putting together words to formulate ideas is what makes us simular to the gods. And for all I know the face of Mars might be a sign that the gods did in fact visit that place to leave behind a visual message by creating that stone in the image of man (gods?). Face on Mars - Google Image Search

Jan 16, 2007, 08:02 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
Dr. Debate Molten Ash Posts: 40	I just don't see how you guys can worship matter, because if God is what we are meant to believe then he is everything, everyone, and everyone and everything is God.

Jan 16, 2007, 08:26 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
Dr. Debate Molten Ash Posts: 40	I know that you're worshiping the person, but actually recognizing that person as God doesn't make much sense, right? And don't you believe that Jesus came down to earth to better understand human beings?

Jan 16, 2007, 08:29 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
Gods_Mercenary Altruism Assassin Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,361	No, God is Omnipotent, why would He come down to understand us? We believe that He came down so that We may better understand Him and His wishes. “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.” -Albert Einstein

Jan 16, 2007, 08:35 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
Gods_Mercenary Altruism Assassin Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,361	Yes, that's the whole purpose, but some people must get hung up on the dogmas, anyway, it's not like we're decalaring each other heretics, just having a discussion to broaden our minds to each other's beliefs. “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.” -Albert Einstein

Jan 16, 2007, 08:50 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
Fonceai BANNED Location: New York Posts: 4,217	And I'm sharing that it's possible that God can be all sorts of mighty and such but still have no idea what free willed entities will do, because free will is that significant.

Jan 16, 2007, 11:27 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
Fonceai BANNED Location: New York Posts: 4,217	But weren't Mary and Joseph related? It was an arranged marriage and such. He might be of the line of David because he is begotten from Mary. Though if you read the "Begots" section of the Bible, it says Joseph Begot (sp) Jesus.

Jan 17, 2007, 07:39 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
Fonceai BANNED Location: New York Posts: 4,217	That's the strange thing... He was Jewish, and Jews measure their lineage through the mother. It's a matriarchal religion, I thought. So why would they measure the line of sons if they practiced a religion that was focused on the daughters?

Jan 17, 2007, 12:18 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
Cephus Hot Lava Location: Redlands, CA Posts: 2,347	In the end, the whole story has so many problems as to make it irrational to believe, plus the fact that there is simply no evidence whatsoever for any of it. It's really the desperate faithful who need to beleive in something who keep it alive at all. Maybe it's time to let this fairy tale just die once and for all. Religion does nothing to help humanity, it only helps humans to hide from reality. Give me reality any day.