Cause and Effect and God?

[Inlineskater]

Is everything in this world truly cause and effect? It seems to me that it is. And if it is then how can someone be punished forever for being bad, or go to heaven if they are good, if really nothing is there fault. Is someone being a "good person" or a "bad person" really just because of who raised them (who is also good or bad because of who raised them and so on and so forth). Now why would god create such and unfair world?

Oh, and when you try to win the lottery, god told me that he has calculated the future and determined that you aren't going to win, however he wonders how him saying that will effect the delicacies of fate. :) (no, I don't beleive in god, just a little joke)

[Kuldeep]

Cause and Effect and God?
Definitely everything in the world is "Cause and effect". I did not understand why you have problem for bad getting punishement while good getting reward! Why you do not look at this also as cause and effect ??????:(

The main problem with us, humen is that our vision is very limited. Who can explain why a particular person only gets born to bad couple and is grown in bad environment while only some other particular person gets born to a good couple and brought up in good environment???? There also are instances when a person brought up in bad environment behaves all good and vice-versa!!!!!!

Now why would god create such and unfair world?

To my mind God does not exist anywhere as a separate identity. So no question of his creating anything or this world. I think our universe is eternally existing having infinite properties functioning on the obvious logical principle of "Cause and Effect"!!!!! . No God, no creation please!!! Rather, what you call God, I look at this universe only as God. ???? No not really, it is my feeling, may sound sarcastic!!

[iahag]

I think our universe is eternally existing having infinite properties functioning on the obvious logical principle of "Cause and Effect"!!!!!

To Kuldeep, this is only true with some very specific definitions, you must be aware of its limitations as it takes our understanding of the universe into consideration.
Let me pose to you a situation.

Effect 1
A pencil falls from a point in space.
Cause of Effect 1
Gravity or weight acted on that pencil

This, to us at the moment, is the cause, yet if we knew what was the cause of gravity, would that become the cause of effect 1, or are they distinct?

Distinct Case--
Effect 1
A pencil falls from a point in space.
Cause of Effect 1
Gravity or weight acted on that pencil
Effect 2 (is the equivalent of the cause of effect 1 for the distinct case)
Gravity
Cause of Effect 2
Cause of Gravity

Non-distinct case--
Effect 1
A pencil falls
Cause of effect 1
Cause of gravity

This, with regard to this topic is useless, I'm just pointing out how specific your definition of cause and effect must be before you start telling everyone how stupid they are that they believe something exists without a cause.

Its easy to see that this logical system will continue for ever and ever. How do you answer the question as to where it stops, if it does stop at all?

I'm sorry I'm edging far too much on the physic'sy side of things. With regard to morality, sin and religion... When it comes to the human condition, understanding the cause of something offers you knowledge you need to prevent that effect. In many cases, its a cyclic thing. I have no money to invest into something to make money, thus, I have no money. Is a good example.

Your never going to understand humans specifically so you will never predict exactly what a person will do or become, but you can certainly predict a trend.

We don't know whether a human is indeterminable, but for now, it is helpful to believe that we are. This gives a person a sense of responsibility, of order, of obligation and conformity. It may not be true but its certainly helpful if it is perpetuated amongst the population.
(not everyones cut out to be a philosopher )

[Inlineskater]

Who can explain why a particular person only gets born to bad couple and is grown in bad environment while only some other particular person gets born to a good couple and brought up in good environment????

Well, it is far more complex than that, a bunch of very small things could affect the brain minutely, making them make a good decision or a bad decision. Whether or not someone is good or bad is far more complex than how they are raised (in the case of kids growing up to be better than there parents). One quote could effect someone so well they would be a good person. Like one of my favorites, "when life gives you lemons, make lemonade." Now my question is, how could god punish someone forever or reward someone forever for acting exactly how they would in the exact circumstances? How could someone be considered "good" or "bad" if nothing is there fault? And if I may be so bold to say so, how can we have free will if the only first cause (supposedly) was done by god (the creation of the universe) and everything after that is effect? Sure, he would have the ability to tamper around her and there to change the delicacies of fate, but again, the only one changing anything who is free of the cause and effect system would be god so only he would have free will. (and only he could be good or bad, which he invented after all.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: iahag To Kuldeep, this is only true with some very specific definitions, you must be aware of its limitations as it takes our understanding of the universe into consideration. Let me pose to you a situation. Effect 1 A pencil falls from a point in space. Cause of Effect 1 Gravity or weight acted on that pencil This, to us at the moment, is the cause, yet if we knew what was the cause of gravity, would that become the cause of effect 1, or are they distinct? Distinct Case-- Effect 1 A pencil falls from a point in space. Cause of Effect 1 Gravity or weight acted on that pencil Effect 2 (is the equivalent of the cause of effect 1 for the distinct case) Gravity Cause of Effect 2 Cause of Gravity Non-distinct case-- Effect 1 A pencil falls Cause of effect 1 Cause of gravity This, with regard to this topic is useless, I'm just pointing out how specific your definition of cause and effect must be before you start telling everyone how stupid they are that they believe something exists without a cause.

What I could understand from your so tiring example is that there can be direct cuase to an effect or at the most there can also an indirect cause. Whether "gravity" is the cause for the pencil to fall or "cause of the gravity" makes it fall does not matter, as long as you agree falling of pencil has a cause.

Its easy to see that this logical system will continue for ever and ever. How do you answer the question as to where it stops, if it does stop at all?

I would answer the question later. You have put a big IF to your own question !!!!!!

First just tell me, what could be the cause due to which it would stop!!!!
I have no problem, I firmly believe that no event is possible without a cause.

I'm sorry I'm edging far too much on the physic'sy side of things.

Never mind, I have been a very good student of physics. I like questions, it is tonic for my mind.

With regard to morality, sin and religion... When it comes to the human condition, understanding the cause of something offers you knowledge you need to prevent that effect. In many cases, its a cyclic thing. I have no money to invest into something to make money, thus, I have no money. Is a good example.

Whether cyclic or non-cyclic nothing would occur without a cause. You have no money because nobody gave you, you did not earn, you did not even steal or borrowed. So you did not invest and naturally did not make any money. Finally you remained with no money as before. So your remaining without money has sound and solid cause!!!:(

Your never going to understand humans specifically so you will never predict exactly what a person will do or become, but you can certainly predict a trend.

So what? Out come has a clear cut cause as pointed out by your own self.

We don't know whether a human is indeterminable, but for now, it is helpful to believe that we are. This gives a person a sense of responsibility, of order, of obligation and conformity. It may not be true but its certainly helpful if it is perpetuated amongst the population. (not everyones cut out to be a philosopher )

Has that also to do something with cause and effect.???? :eek:

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Inlineskater Now my question is, how could god punish someone forever or reward someone forever for acting exactly how they would in the exact circumstances? How could someone be considered "good" or "bad" if nothing is there fault? And if I may be so bold to say so, how can we have free will if the only first cause (supposedly) was done by god (the creation of the universe) and everything after that is effect? Sure, he would have the ability to tamper around her and there to change the delicacies of fate, but again, the only one changing anything who is free of the cause and effect system would be god so only he would have free will. (and only he could be good or bad, which he invented after all.

Please re-read my last part of my post, where in I have emperically made it clear that no separate God is possible. No body is out there to term you good or bad. There was never a creation and creator type of event. Yes, you have a free will which you use via an instrument called MIND (it can be both physical as well as meta-physical). You keep on acting due to desires of mind and their reactions as fruits you are bound to get. Bad actions would result bad reactions and good actions would provide you bad reactions...".As you sow so shall you reap"....very simple but very wise saying.:)

[Inlineskater]

No body is out there to term you good or bad

Except God... I mean yes, I do believe that, but I want to know how someone could believe God(the biblical one, I don't doubt that there are similar systems for other religions) could send some one to hell forever (which is an awfully long time to suffer, especially if your only fault was living in the wrong place and having never heard of said religion) or to heaven forever, for doing exactly as you would in the exact circumstances. How could you beleive in(and love) a god who allows the vast majority of his creations to go to hell (forever)? I mean, come one, he doesn't have to take away their "free will", but can't he just say something to those who don't beleive in him? I mean if a god said something to me (making his voice magically in the room) and I could speak to him with only my thoughts, I would most definetly beleive in said god. But he would wrather let most people go to hell.

[Athena]

Quote by: Kuldeep Cause and Effect and God? Definitely everything in the world is "Cause and effect". I did not understand why you have problem for bad getting punishement while good getting reward! Why you do not look at this also as cause and effect ??????:( The main problem with us, humen is that our vision is very limited. Who can explain why a particular person only gets born to bad couple and is grown in bad environment while only some other particular person gets born to a good couple and brought up in good environment???? There also are instances when a person brought up in bad environment behaves all good and vice-versa!!!!!! To my mind God does not exist anywhere as a separate identity. So no question of his creating anything or this world. I think our universe is eternally existing having infinite properties functioning on the obvious logical principle of "Cause and Effect"!!!!! . No God, no creation please!!! Rather, what you call God, I look at this universe only as God. ???? No not really, it is my feeling, may sound sarcastic!!

Isn't it amazing how often this has been said, and how people continue to express their ideas as though it was never said? Why do you suppose that is?

[Athena]

Quote by: Inlineskater Well, it is far more complex than that, a bunch of very small things could affect the brain minutely, making them make a good decision or a bad decision. Whether or not someone is good or bad is far more complex than how they are raised (in the case of kids growing up to be better than there parents). One quote could effect someone so well they would be a good person. Like one of my favorites, "when life gives you lemons, make lemonade." Now my question is, how could god punish someone forever or reward someone forever for acting exactly how they would in the exact circumstances? How could someone be considered "good" or "bad" if nothing is there fault? And if I may be so bold to say so, how can we have free will if the only first cause (supposedly) was done by god (the creation of the universe) and everything after that is effect? Sure, he would have the ability to tamper around her and there to change the delicacies of fate, but again, the only one changing anything who is free of the cause and effect system would be god so only he would have free will. (and only he could be good or bad, which he invented after all.

Amazing! How can you so completely not get what Kuldeep is saying? He is speaking English, why aren't you grasping what he is saying?

[Athena]

Quote by: Inlineskater Except God... I mean yes, I do believe that, but I want to know how someone could believe God(the biblical one, I don't doubt that there are similar systems for other religions) could send some one to hell forever (which is an awfully long time to suffer, especially if your only fault was living in the wrong place and having never heard of said religion) or to heaven forever, for doing exactly as you would in the exact circumstances. How could you beleive in(and love) a god who allows the vast majority of his creations to go to hell (forever)? I mean, come one, he doesn't have to take away their "free will", but can't he just say something to those who don't beleive in him? I mean if a god said something to me (making his voice magically in the room) and I could speak to him with only my thoughts, I would most definetly beleive in said god. But he would wrather let most people go to hell.

A God isn't judging people. Whatever happens, happens by law of karma. That is cause and effect. Now things can be happening badly for us or things can be going very well, and by our own thinking and action we can contribute to this happening or change it. It is very important to develop a big view of life and ourselves. The intensity of our feeling about what happens is most intense when our view of life and ourselves is very small. Our feeling about what happens is least intense when our view life and ourselves is large. It isn't what happens to us that matters so much, but how you understand it and what you do with it. What happens next rext depends on your own decisions.

So when I rolled the VW my husband had given me, he was delighted to have a dune buggy. Which was a good thing, as I wasn't feeling so good, and didn't want him to be angry about me totally the car. Later when he divorced me, it was a good thing, because the marriage was not so good. It was easy letting go of this relationship once I decided we were partners in a past life, and the incomplete karma had been completed.

[Inlineskater]

You are being a bit flamish...

Amazing! How can you so completely not get what Kuldeep is saying? He is speaking English, why aren't you grasping what he is saying?

[Jack]

Karma includes two problematic concepts;

Good vs. bad - subjective opinion without common definition. How can the two forces balance out if we can't agree on what constitutes good and bad?

Karma suggests an outside agency that tracks events and attempts to balance the ledgers. Who or what is this outside agency?

[Athena]

Quote by: Isherwood Karma includes two problematic concepts; Good vs. bad - subjective opinion without common definition. How can the two forces balance out if we can't agree on what constitutes good and bad? Karma suggests an outside agency that tracks events and attempts to balance the ledgers. Who or what is this outside agency?

Fortunately the universe does not require our understanding.

Karma does not rely on an outside agent. The bible says, you get what you sow. This is so because of cause and effect, not because there is an outside agent that can determine what happens.

My concept of karma differs from some religious teachings, and I have no right to claim myself an "authority" other than reason. And in this case, my reasoning is influenced by a thought of a past incarnation, and considering this is personal not everyone can use the same reasoning. But in the life we know, we repeat the same mistakes until we have a consciousness that allows us to do things differently. There is no outside agent determining our lives for us, but our own consciousness.

[Jagged]

You take responsibility for being you. Obviously its not your "fault" that you are you, but you still take responsibility for your actions and the like. Your destiny may be pre-concieved, but you dont know about it. Im pretty sure thats it. Im not religious, yet, for this question, i do believe that "it is beyond our site" is a valid answer. I mean, you could just as well argue as to why infants die young or why people are born into unbreakable poverty if you want to question the justness of God. This C&E" argument is pretty weak in comparison.

[Athena]

Quote by: Inlineskater You are being a bit flamish...

No I was not flaming, but pointing out how difficult it can be to communicate a complex concept. We once used the Conceptual Method of education, where children are taught basic conceptuals and the gradually more complex concepts. The more complex concepts can not be understood, without knowledge of the basic concepts.

Culture plays a huge role in what concepts we learn. So much of the arguing we have is because we are not allowing for cultural differences. Kuldeep is naturally working with different concepts than those in the west, because in his culture the concepts are common knowledge. Now even if he uses English to explain these concepts, it is hard for us to grasp them. Notice how many times I say I am not sure I understand what Kuldeep is saying. Sometimes I just can not wrap my mind around what he is thinking.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Inlineskater Except God... I mean yes, I do believe that, but I want to know how someone could believe God(the biblical one, I don't doubt that there are similar systems for other religions) could send some one to hell forever (which is an awfully long time to suffer, especially if your only fault was living in the wrong place and having never heard of said religion) or to heaven forever, for doing exactly as you would in the exact circumstances. How could you beleive in(and love) a god who allows the vast majority of his creations to go to hell (forever)? I mean, come one, he doesn't have to take away their "free will", but can't he just say something to those who don't beleive in him? I mean if a god said something to me (making his voice magically in the room) and I could speak to him with only my thoughts, I would most definetly beleive in said god. But he would wrather let most people go to hell.

Understand! Your own true consciousness is God only, which always watches you and sends you to hell or heaven depending on your actions. You do good actions, feel good and that is heaven at that point of time while; doing bad action you feel bad and that is hell. No God exists outside you.

Quote by: Athena Isn't it amazing how often this has been said, and how people continue to express their ideas as though it was never said? Why do you suppose that is?

Amazing! How can you so completely not get what Kuldeep is saying? He is speaking English, why aren't you grasping what he is saying?

Yes it is! It is their prjudice and biased mind which do not allow them comply with simple and lucid explanation to tough riddle behind the reality. They can never think it can be so simple. But, the fact remains that it is actually simple.

Quote by: Isherwood Karma includes two problematic concepts; Good vs. bad - subjective opinion without common definition. How can the two forces balance out if we can't agree on what constitutes good and bad? Karma suggests an outside agency that tracks events and attempts to balance the ledgers. Who or what is this outside agency?

What you wants others should do unto you is good while what you expect others should not do to you is bad.

There is no outside agency to keep a record of your Karmas, it is your own consciousness

Quote by: Athena Fortunately the universe does not require our understanding. Karma does not rely on an outside agent. The bible says, you get what you sow. This is so because of cause and effect, not because there is an outside agent that can determine what happens. My concept of karma differs from some religious teachings, and I have no right to claim myself an "authority" other than reason. And in this case, my reasoning is influenced by a thought of a past incarnation, and considering this is personal not everyone can use the same reasoning. But in the life we know, we repeat the same mistakes until we have a consciousness that allows us to do things differently. There is no outside agent determining our lives for us, but our own consciousness.

Athena, your understanding is near to the reality.

No, Isher, Karma is self recording system in the inner most part of the instruemwent MIND called CONSCIOUSNESS.In other wards, what you call as you is recording all your actions without hue and cry...:(

Quote by: Jagged You take responsibility for being you. Obviously its not your "fault" that you are you, but you still take responsibility for your actions and the like. Your destiny may be pre-concieved, but you dont know about it. Im pretty sure thats it.

Yes, we are bound to take responsibility for being what we are. It is not our fault for we being as we but it is our own deep rooted DESIRE to be as we. So because we like to be a separate identity as consciousness. Your destiny is determined by your own action, in order to enjoy fruits of those past actions as reactions. Your understanding is quite correct that destiny is pre-concieved but what you do not know is that it is as a result of your own past actions.

Im not religious, yet, for this question, i do believe that "it is beyond our site" is a valid answer. I mean, you could just as well argue as to why infants die young or why people are born into unbreakable poverty if you want to question the justness of God. This C&E" argument is pretty weak in comparison.

Your vision is limited to present life only. So you can not be right to judge why an infant died or why people are born rich or poor. Or why a particular luck for some and different for others. To know this, you are required to enlighten your vision to full spectrum of infinite number of lives. Many a times I have repeated time and again, the only method to do that is to erase your own individual identity (consciousness) and you would have the over-all vision.

Quote by: Athena Culture plays a huge role in what concepts we learn. So much of the arguing we have is because we are not allowing for cultural differences. Kuldeep is naturally working with different concepts than those in the west, because in his culture the concepts are common knowledge. Now even if he uses English to explain these concepts, it is hard for us to grasp them. Notice how many times I say I am not sure I understand what Kuldeep is saying. Sometimes I just can not wrap my mind around what he is thinking.

I do agree Culture plays a vital role. But at times, I am not even refering, what eastern mythology mentions. I try as far as possible to keep all faiths and beliefs away from my writing.

I try to use very un-common common sense with un-biased mind for putting a possible reason for anything happening around us. Though at times, I am getting funny and cheap adjectives to entertain myself; I do not mind for that. Again this does not refrain me from writing as long as someone like Athena is there to understand it, though partly.

[Osborn F Enready]

Man, after reading all of this, I am so glad religion doesn't burden me.

I'll stick with logic and reason.

[Kuldeep]

I think that is more than enough O.F.E, if one uses it with an unbiased mind and moderate ego. I say moderate ego since it is not possible to be egoless.

[Fonceai]

I reject formal religions, but I toss in a bit of karmic awareness, just to spice up my view of the universe.