Human Beings Manufactured for Sale

[4naturalfamily]

There are few true orphans to be found who are young and healthy enough to be desirable for "adoption". So living parents and grandparents who are naive are often talked out of their infant family members -- even in the United States. Making human babies "available" for people to "adopt" is a fairly lucrative business, so the adoption agencies and adoption attorneys are doing quite well.

As if that were not bad enough, now there are businesses that manufacture human beings to sell to buyers.

WP: 'Embryo bank' raises designer-baby fears - washingtonpost.com Highlights - MSNBC.com

There are absolutely no home studies required and no rules about who can buy a human being in this way. Buyers might include pedophiles, the mentally ill, the elderly, someone who is trying to raise up the "numbers" of people with beliefs similar to their own (Gays, Christians, Aetheists, White People, etc.), or some entity that is trying to produce workers of a certain type they can use.


To hide the reality, the sellers refer to all of these people as "parents" as if they were related to the human being they're purchasing. Even if they just want to get a baby to use as "real offspring" this is still a form of slavery, with the created human being cut off from any true relatives.

[Athena]

My grandchildren were made wards of the court for a year, and I learned more about tyranny than I ever knew there was to learn. This is something we need to talk about, but I really don't want to think about the experience. At this time Good Housing Keep printed an article about how some state child protection services were tied to adoption rings.

Years later, I took training to be a foster care parent, and listened to how this bureaucracy never made mistakes, and listened to potential foster parents being encouraged to believe they will be able to adopt the children they foster. The federal government has made law that speeds up the time parental rights are terminated. This along with what I know about how the bureaucracy works, is very ugly children as slaves mentality, completely violating any meaning of family. Especially those who are without family to protect them, meaning good ties to parents and grandparents, and those who are retarded, are vulnerable to having their children taken from them.

Much of the world is still organized by kinship ties. What exist in the US today is far from kinship ties. Today, a wive can not even manage her husband's medical affairs when a stroke or Alzhiemer's diseases makes it impossible for him to so, unless she has a attorney and files the right legal papers. When we take a child to a public school, it is school policy that rules, not the parents, and by law we must turn our children over to the schools. One school went so far as to help my 14 year old daughter arrange to move to her aunt's home in another state, without letting me know of this! She was able to make all long distance phone calls at school, and the school counselor promised her a ride to the bus station after she arrived at school on the school bus. The school made it possible for her to disappear out of my life, without me knowing anything about what happened. We have pretty much replaced family authority with the authority of the state. We have seriously unmined parental authority.

We can not even think in terms of kinship ties today, and we are told we are "liberating" people who are still organized by kinship ties. We are told these people are backwards and evil, and do not share our values. Go Christians, rah, rah, rah. As Jesus said, "they know what they do".

Some Muslim countries have protected themselves from state rule, by placing family decisions in the hands of their religious organization, rather than the state. We might expand our knowledge of human organizations and rethink our own.

[4naturalfamily]

My grandchildren were made wards of the court for a year, and I learned more about tyranny than I ever knew there was to learn. This is something we need to talk about, but I really don't want to think about the experience. At this time Good Housing Keep printed an article about how some state child protection services were tied to adoption rings.

Wow - Good Housekeeping had an article like that? Good for them, for exposing something about the corruption.

I hear people say they will adopt "ethically" -- but what is "ethical" about it? The adopted person usually has all the details of his own identity hidden from him by the so-called "loving" people who "wanted a baby so much". Often the baby is separated from mother right after he is born, which is very traumatizing. Even puppies from the worst puppy mills usually get to stay with their mother for at least 8 weeks.

Adoption is a form of slavery. Would people really refuse to take an orphan child in if they were not given the means (via a fradulenty altered birth certificate) to deny the person they "get" any knowledge about their true relatives? If so, then they are NOT "loving" people and have no "right" to get a human being to use.

[bishop]

Quote by: 4naturalfamily There are absolutely no home studies required and no rules about who can buy a human being in this way. Buyers might include pedophiles, the mentally ill, the elderly, someone who is trying to raise up the "numbers" of people with beliefs similar to their own (Gays, Christians, Aetheists, White People, etc.), or some entity that is trying to produce workers of a certain type they can use.

this seeming outrage against adoptive parents is interesting - considering that i frequently encounter natural/biological parents whose fitness for parenthood is equally or even more questionable than people like gays and aetheists...

maybe if the horrid greed and red tape inherent in the traditional adoptive process didn't exist, people wouldn't be looking at these embryo banks for children.

[Jack]

Adoption is a form of slavery.

Are you saying that in relation to your link, or is that your opinion about adoption in general?

[4naturalfamily]

Adoption is a form of slavery.

Few people want to bother with real orphans. So adoption businesses provide "services" to clients to help them to get the desirable baby "of their dreams". They lure naive people in with slick advertising, hoping to snare the newborn baby of a mother who is healthy, intelligent and lighter-skinned. Mothers are being offered so-called "open" adoption -- pictures, letters, continued contact with their child and even college scholarships -- to get them to surrender. Fathers have no rights at all if they are not married to their child's mother. The adoptive people know they do not have to follow through on their "promises".

The people who get the child nearly always disrespect the child's family, and make the child believe he/she is "bad" and was "unwanted". It's a real mind game.

Adoption is done mainly for the paying customer. If it was really done "for the child" then the "child" (adult adoptee) would not be legally prevented from knowing anything about his/her own identity and origins.

[4naturalfamily]

I don't think I'm dissing adoptive parents when I say that not having homes studies is not protecting the child from exploitation.

[4naturalfamily]

maybe if the horrid greed and red tape inherent in the traditional adoptive process didn't exist, people wouldn't be looking at these embryo banks for children.

Do you really think human beings should be manufactured for sale?

There is sometimes a complete lack of interest in protecting families and children from corruption and greed. I really don't understand why.

[Jack]

I can't help but think of the numerous situations where children of imprisoned or drug-addicted mothers (and no father present) are put up for adoption for their own good. The law generally allows the birth mother to decide if she wants the child informed about her or not. In many cases, I'd say that knowing your mom was in prison or a drug addict wouldn't be beneficial to the child. Once an adult, the child can often petition the court to release their birth records. At that age, they can better handle the reality of their birth.

In the scenario you first presented, I can see where you get the idea that adoption is a form of slavery. But I'd disagree in the case of other adoptions.

[Athena]

Quote by: 4naturalfamily Wow - Good Housekeeping had an article like that? Good for them, for exposing something about the corruption. I hear people say they will adopt "ethically" -- but what is "ethical" about it? The adopted person usually has all the details of his own identity hidden from him by the so-called "loving" people who "wanted a baby so much". Often the baby is separated from mother right after he is born, which is very traumatizing. Even puppies from the worst puppy mills usually get to stay with their mother for at least 8 weeks. Adoption is a form of slavery. Would people really refuse to take an orphan child in if they were not given the means (via a fradulenty altered birth certificate) to deny the person they "get" any knowledge about their true relatives? If so, then they are NOT "loving" people and have no "right" to get a human being to use.

In Oregon the adopted the child now has the right to know who is on the original birth certificate. There has been some recognition of the problem of hiding one's parents. Mostly for medical reasons, parentage is no longer hidden.

However, we are far from accepting the possibility of recarnation and spiritual ties to family. Christianity is such a paradoxical religion, both accepting and denying spiritual reality. In general, our society is so materialistic, we can treat children as slaves and assume nothing wrong with this.

Life for children was a real horror during the Great Depression when they were taken from parents who could not provide for them, and sent to mostly farming communities where they were desired laborers. These children were at the mercy of the people who took them in.

[Athena]

Quote by: 4naturalfamily Adoption is a form of slavery. Few people want to bother with real orphans. So adoption businesses provide "services" to clients to help them to get the desirable baby "of their dreams". They lure naive people in with slick advertising, hoping to snare the newborn baby of a mother who is healthy, intelligent and lighter-skinned. Mothers are being offered so-called "open" adoption -- pictures, letters, continued contact with their child and even college scholarships -- to get them to surrender. Fathers have no rights at all if they are not married to their child's mother. The adoptive people know they do not have to follow through on their "promises". The people who get the child nearly always disrespect the child's family, and make the child believe he/she is "bad" and was "unwanted". It's a real mind game. Adoption is done mainly for the paying customer. If it was really done "for the child" then the "child" (adult adoptee) would not be legally prevented from knowing anything about his/her own identity and origins.

I am very glad you mentioned the lack of fathers rights. Not that anyone here will pay any attention to the legal reality as they argue in favor of free sex, including not having to provide for the child who may result from their sexual gratification when they don't want this responsibility. On the other hand, I have seen fathers do everything in their power to fight the state for their children. They are so powerless against the system.

It is very common for the bureaucracy that takes children from parents, to promise them open adoptions, the pictures, letters etc., only for the parent who gives up the child, to find out those promises are empty and they have legal recourse. This heart tearing reality involves grandparents too. Some grandparents have sold their homes, to pay attorneys to get them custody of their grandchildren, and have been completely ripped off, ending up with nothing but debt and heartache. Occasionally this fight for grandchildren has lead to a grandparent's death.

When my grandchildren's foster parent realized my fight for my grandchildren and that my daughter and I were good people, they helped us get the children back. But this took a year, because a case worker who abused her power, prevented us from having contact. Actually, it was because several of us Grandparents united and spoke in front of the legisture to change the policies, that I was able to rescue my grandchildren from the state.

[Athena]

Quote by: Isherwood I can't help but think of the numerous situations where children of imprisoned or drug-addicted mothers (and no father present) are put up for adoption for their own good. The law generally allows the birth mother to decide if she wants the child informed about her or not. In many cases, I'd say that knowing your mom was in prison or a drug addict wouldn't be beneficial to the child. Once an adult, the child can often petition the court to release their birth records. At that age, they can better handle the reality of their birth. In the scenario you first presented, I can see where you get the idea that adoption is a form of slavery. But I'd disagree in the case of other adoptions.

Children are treated as things that can be warehoused and traded. They do not have protected rights, despite the farce of tax paid, state appointed attorneys who do nothing more than process the children through the system. When they are taken by the state, they loose all personal power, and have no say in what happens to them. It is pretty much the same as the US invading Iraq and then assuming it has the right to decide what happens next. Those in "authority" assume too much power over others, and they have no personal investment in what happens to the children!!!:( These bureaucratics have no human ties with those whose lives they impact. They take the children and give them to someone, and never look back to see what happens to the child, or the parents or the grandparents. This process is as dehumanized as slaughtering cattling in a meat packing plant.

[bishop]

Quote by: 4naturalfamily The people who get the child nearly always disrespect the child's family, and make the child believe he/she is "bad" and was "unwanted". It's a real mind game.

could you show some proof of this claim that adoptive parents "nearly always" do the things you suggested? i've known adoptive parents, and their kids, and found the opposite to be true.

are you adopted? if so, did you have a bad experience? i'm just asking because i wonder if your potential experience is being used as an unsubstantiated overgeneralization.

Quote by: 4naturalfamily Do you really think human beings should be manufactured for sale? There is sometimes a complete lack of interest in protecting families and children from corruption and greed. I really don't understand why.

no, i don't think human beings should be manufactured for sale.. i never suggested that i thought opposite.

the idea you're posing here is pretty atypical, because usually people aren't hostile towards the idea of adoption. the process is certainly dirty, with all sorts of money and middlemen involved, but your problem seems clearly to be with the adoptive parents themselves... i'm curious about why you've chosen to villianize them.

[4naturalfamily]

In Oregon the adopted the child now has the right to know who is on the original birth certificate.

When you say "adopted child" are you saying the seven year old who was adopted has the right to know -- or only the adult adoptee? Thanks in advance for clarifying this. (That's another strange phenomenon in adoption - so many people refer to the person who was adopted (even if they are 90 years old) as a "child".)

With the embryo production and sales, there will be no reason for "the child" to pretend he/she is "grateful" for being "saved". So it will be interesting to see whether the embryo-adopted "child" who is unrelated to the people raising him/her will be more willing to speak out.

[4naturalfamily]

the process is certainly dirty, with all sorts of money and middlemen involved, but your problem seems clearly to be with the adoptive parents themselves... i'm curious about why you've chosen to villianize them

You're right of course - the problem is with the "system". The "system" and laws that are currently in place make it possible for adoption businesses to take advantage of people. People who want a baby badly make down-payments to adoption businesses up front and then get really anxious about whether they will "get" a baby (and one that meets their expectations) - or whether they will be "scammed".

With domestic adoption (at least) wouldn't you think it would be the law that they had to wait until there was actually an "orphan" -- at least on paper -- before finding replacement parents? It's not very nice to see it on the news when people get angry because they wanted to turn a child who was not an orphan into an orphan and "failed".

[4naturalfamily]

Quote: Quote by: 4naturalfamily The people who get the child nearly always disrespect the child's family, and make the child believe he/she is "bad" and was "unwanted". It's a real mind game. could you show some proof of this claim that adoptive parents "nearly always" do the things you suggested? i've known adoptive parents, and their kids, and found the opposite to be true.

Well..maybe I did state that in a strange way. I'll try again. I have seen much evidence of adoptees saying they feel like a nine-month abortion. I think it is not unusual for that to happen when a person is separated from their mother and has no idea why. But there is more...

Have you ever heard of Parental Alienation Syndrome? I admit I'm not much for "syndromes" in general. But when there is a divorce, if a parent denigrates the other parent in any way or does something to negatively impact the child's relationship with her parent - then it is considered abusive towards the child. If you insult someone's mother or father you insult them. I think that with adoption, the very act of changing a person's name and cutting them off from their original parents denigrates the child's parents and thus is insulting/hurtful for the child.

I read a book by Tim Green (an adoptee) and he said when no one was watching he would hit himself because he felt he must be "bad". I admit it sounds strange. It is not the adoptive parent's fault...but it sure makes you wonder why so many people promote family separation ("adoption") in cases where a child is born to single parents who are willing and able to care for him.

[So what]

A psych evaluation IS mandatory for donor embryos.
My son is from a donated embryo. I know.

[4naturalfamily]

It'll be an interesting experiment to see whether he is "grateful" all his life for having been sold and cut off from all his related family. Personally, I think such "experimentation" with human beings is demented.

[So what]

There were three options for him:
1. to be destroyed
2. to be used in research
3. to be given to someone who desperately wanted to love him

It's not experimantation to desire children to the degree you need medical intervention. I chose donor embryo because I didn't want to 'create' more embryos using donor sperm and egg. I chose to transfer an embryo that existed already. One that was not intended to be used by the genetic sperm and egg donor as they had triplets at 40 and health risks precluded the mother from having anymore pregnancies. What were they to do with other embryos that no Dr would transfer to this woman as the medical risks were too high? They had several frozen embryos left from the cycle that worked for them. They didn't want them destroyed so they lovingly donated them to another deserving family.
I think people who have to go to the lengths of assisted reproductive technology treasure children immensly, because we know how precious they are.
My son is welcome to know his genetics.I will help him learn about his genetic contributors. We intend to tell him the story of his conception. He will know how wanted he was, what lengths we went to, how precious he is to us and the story is one of love and triumph over all odds. It won't be a story of " hey I had one too many glasses of wine one night and..."

Will he be grateful?? I know tennagers that were concieved the old fashioned way that "wish I were never born!". But the other options for my son were bleak.
I know one thing..I'm grateful.

[Jack]

It'll be an interesting experiment to see whether he is "grateful" all his life for having been sold and cut off from all his related family. Personally, I think such "experimentation" with human beings is demented.

You make it sound like a person's blood relations are always a positive and uplifting aspect of their lives. Your perspective seems overly negative. I've had many friends that came from families they'd rather not talk about. Absentee fathers, uncaring mothers, distant and aloof siblings. Not all families are worthy of respect. If a child can be moved from an uncaring situation to a caring one, isn't that a positive situation?