Does ISLAM Make Saudia Arabia a Bad Country to Live In?

[StrongHeartsWin]

My position in the debate is yes. I posit that certain rights should not stop at borders and that those rights must be equal amongst those within the border of any country. I suggest that Islamic law, which springs from Islam and the Koran, adopted by the Saudi government, is what mostly influences the violation these fundemental rights and makes Saudi Arabia a place where the ability to attain happiness is not equally available to all within its borders. I identify these rights which helps one to attain happiness as:

1. Equality among sexes
2. Right to freedom of speech and expression
3. Right to freedom of movement
4. Right to freedom of choice in Beliefs
5. Right to representation in government
6. Right to petition government for change
7. Right to participate in government
8. Right to non discrimination based on ethnic and national origins
9. Right to non discrimination based on religious or sexual orientaton
10. Right to participate equally in economic dealings
11. Right to jury amongst peers in criminal proceedings
12. Right to not be the target of inhumane treatment in the form of punishment

I have chosen Saudi Arabia because it is the center of the Muslim World. Approx 1.5 billion people turn to Mecca, located in Saudi Arabia, every day to pray. In addition millions pilgrimage to it every year.

The creation of this debate thread has been inspired by the comments of The_Genius at the end of this POST of his (where he extolls the virtues of Saudi Arabia) in the thread Islam: Schizophrenia and Deception. It was a clear break in the thread topic so I thought it deserved its own. I will address his points from there here since they address and illustrate quite well my position on some of the points above as it concerns the quality of life issues in Saudi Arabia.


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I am not sure if this should go in the Politics or Religion category. I am placing it in the latter and if admin feels it is ill placed, they can move it at their discretion.

[StrongHeartsWin]

First of all, let`s look at this deceptive quote below by The_Genius where he dishonestly inserts the word "everybody," as if that in some way refers to the whole group of people residing in Saudi Arabia. It clearly does not.

Quote by: The_Genius In Islam, everybody is equal regardless of skin color, cultural background or financial status.

How about women being equal to men with rights, Genius? How about people of different faiths, Genius? Where do they fit into the Islamic laws of Saudi society? Are they not part of "everybody?" If nearly 50% of the population are women, that surely does not qualify for the liberal use of "everybody," despite the use of "regardless" which cleverly tries to hide the discrimination in Saudi Arabia.

Anyone who has read the newspapers in the last five years knows that Saudia Arabia, under Islamic Sharia law has the following discriminatory practices that consign women to dependency on males -- if not second class citizens:

1. Women are denied the right to work in all vocations
2. Freedom of movement restricted
3. Cannot travel abroad without permission of husband or father and may be required to be accompanied by them
4. Punished if found to be in the company of a male who is a non-relative and when found to be so, the punishment is more often applied to only the female and not the male

Don`t take my word for it. Look HERE.

How does Islamic Law make Saudi Arabia great place to be held up for an example of the virtues of Islam when applied to a countries politics and legal system if half the population are degraded to inferiour status in freedoms?

Saudi Arabia should be an embarrassment to any Muslim who respects freedom and rights, and they should be willing to condemn it and the Islamic Law they apply. Well, can you? Do you? Will you?

Which among you women would be willing to live like that under the weight of Islam in an Islamic country under Sharia law?

[Praxius]

Well if you want to pick at the faults on one country, I imagine a lot can be picked apart in the country you live in, much like mine.

Your thread here is already biased towards Saudi Arabia and Islam, which is of course your side of the argument.... but this topic could just go on forever with both sides picking the faults of both sides.... neither is perfect, and hence the argument will go on forever.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: Praxius Your thread here is already biased towards Saudi Arabia and Islam, which is of course your side of the argument....

Because it is a debate forum! And in debate people must take a side and express a point of view.

...but this topic could just go on forever with both sides picking the faults of both sides.... neither is perfect, and hence the argument will go on forever.

Yes, that is right and it could go on for a long time. So what? Debate is to help people thrash out ideas on the issue. The participants who are already decided may not move on their position, but the onlookers may if they are undecided.

Regarding my post on women above, would you like to live, or have your daughter live in a country where they are legislated to a position that allows them to be picked up on the street by the morals police and punished by whipping or imprisonment?

[Captain Chaos]

I think conservative Islam is just as phucked up as conservative Christianity. If there is any reason to believe Mohammed was really a prophet of God, I would be interested hearing it.

Why would God need prophets anyway? That is the part that makes most religions doubtful. Why would God need someone to speak on his behalf? When someone claims to pass on a message from the creator, I am left wondering why the creator wouldn't just tell me something directly, if he wished to speak to me.

[RickSp]

Claiming that Saudi is the center of the Muslim world because it contains the two holiest cities in Islam may be superficially true, if somewhat meaningless. It is comparable to saying that Jerusalem is the center of Christianity.

Of course the kingdom of Saudi Arabia practices Salafiism, a rather austere form of Islam, which is by no means representative of most Islamic sects. Salafis are a distinct minority among Muslims around the world. I realize that this sort of disctinction may not matter to one who condemns all of Islam outright, calling Mohammed a terrorist and a torturer.

[StrongHeartsWin]

What matters, RickSp, is that The_Genius bragged about the merrits of Saudi society -- hence the thread and the opposing view I have. The information about Saudi being the center of the Islamic world and people praying to Mecca were just fluff parts. You shouldn`t have latched on to it for it means nothing, as surely as your Jeruselum comment. Didn`t you read the opening and following para carefully to find the saliant points being outlined?

Why don`t you address something specific if you think it is a good place to live rather than a general comment about the fact that the laws it has are austere. The OP is set up to make a debate as it being a bad place to live or a good place. Which position do you take?

[Scribbler1]

I think it safe to say Saudi Arabia would be a MOST unpleasant place to live by Western standards. OTOH, if it works for them then who cares? I don't see a lot of emigration from the West to ANY of those countries over there.

[Praxius]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin Because it is a debate forum! And in debate people must take a side and express a point of view...... among more to quote....

Yeah yeah, I know.... I just like stating the obvious, lol :eek:

[Praxius]

Quote by: Scribbler1 I think it safe to say Saudi Arabia would be a MOST unpleasant place to live by Western standards. OTOH, if it works for them then who cares? I don't see a lot of emigration from the West to ANY of those countries over there.

That's kinda what I was getting at, lol. It may seem bad by our standards, but then again, that's the norm over there. If they wanted to change, they have the ability.

[RickSp]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin What matters, RickSp, is that The_Genius bragged about the merrits of Saudi society -- hence the thread and the opposing view I have.

There are no doubt certain merits to Saudi society. I have friends who either grew up in Saudi Arabia or worked there. One is a Muslim woman with a PhD in Early Childhood Education, currently working as professional in the US. I am no fan of Islamic fundamentalism, nor for that matter fundamentalism of almost any form. Nevertheless, broadbrush condemnations don't provide much with which to debate.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: RickSp There are no doubt certain merits to Saudi society. I have friends who either grew up in Saudi Arabia or worked there. One is a Muslim woman with a PhD in Early Childhood Education, currently working as professional in the US. I am no fan of Islamic fundamentalism, nor for that matter fundamentalism of almost any form. Nevertheless, broadbrush condemnations don't provide much with which to debate.

I am sure there are merits and demerits to all countries. So, are you on the fence about whether you would like to live there or not? Just undecided?

Do you have a concept of a tipping scale, or doesn`t that come into play in stating a clear position except for riding the fence?

[The_Genius]

Hold on, I will get back to you...

[The_Genius]

Think I pressed the wrong button.

[The_Genius]

On the other thread, I was talking about the ‘safety from criminals’ that Saudi Arabians enjoy because of Islamic Judicial System. Not once, I have mentioned Saudi Arabia is the perfect example of a democratic country. You didn’t even know that Salafism/Wahhabism does not form the majority of Sunni Islam. That’s what happens when you avoid real knowledge and visit anti-Islamic propaganda sites most of the times.

What matters, RickSp, is that The_Genius bragged about the merrits of Saudi society

What are you on about? Why don’t you quote what I really said and stop exaggerating?

1. Equality among sexes 2. Right to freedom of speech and expression 3. Right to freedom of movement 4. Right to freedom of choice in Beliefs 5. Right to representation in government 6. Right to petition government for change 7. Right to participate in government 8. Right to non discrimination based on ethnic and national origins 9. Right to non discrimination based on religious or sexual orientaton 10. Right to participate equally in economic dealings 11. Right to jury amongst peers in criminal proceedings 12. Right to not be the target of inhumane treatment in the form of punishment

I find your definition of happiness quite unrealistic. Why?


1. Check how many women get raped in Saudi Arabia compare to how many women are raped in USA everyday. ‘Equality’ is not equivalent of a ‘woman’s safety from rapists’.
2. Umm… Saudi Arabia did not pass the Patriot Act, USA did.
3. What about Black Nationalists being killed while they were fighting for civil rights?
4. yeah right… These days, almost every religious Muslim is a potential terrorist in USA.
5. Keith Elison? He is the first one and probably the last.
6. Wishful thinking! Like Bush really cares about what you think…
7. Can’t see much of a difference between 5 and 7.
8. No wonder why Blacks and Latinos get the worst education. By the way, Klu Kluz Klan did not originate from Saudi Arabia…
9. Come on! Nor you or I live in Utopia.
10. Coming from the citizen of an imperialist nation… Economic equality in capitalism??? That’s something new.
11. How come war criminals like Bush don’t get judged?
12. Have you heard the name Abu Gharib prison? Or Guantanamo Bay is sufficient to remind you?

You are proving my point, Genius, and setting yourself up as a model person who has the thought patterns prone to terrorism.

Even knives that are used to cut fruits scare me like hell and I hate action movies or PC games that have anything to with “guns”. You don’t even know me and already making assumptions? Typical example of how the US media turns a peaceful Muslim into a terrorist…

[The_Genius]

Having problems with posting.

[rcne]

Isn't Saudi the home of Wadism? Now thats one Islamic Brotherhood of fundamentalism. Which I think is now causing even the supporters within Saudi some problems.

So indeed this Wadism version of Islam does make Saudi Arabia a bad country to live in if you are not a Wadi Saudi.

[Praxius]

This is why I was keeping out of this until things started to flow from both sides.

I remember a month ago or so, I got into an argument with someone from the US about their conduct in Afghanistan, Iraq and the current government in the US...... it ended up pretty much how this is starting.... before I knew it I had people from the US bitching about the faults of Canada, and vise versa..... the problem was, that the people from the US in question were trying to pull facts out of their arse, before they knew what they were talking about..... I wasn't trying to say my country was better, nor trying to bash the US or it's citizens. Constructive criticism can sometimes be taking the wrong way, it seems.

It's the whole "My country is better then your's" mentality, that neither side can win, because if one country was truly better then another in all aspects that truly mattered, then you'd think all other countries would follow suit and conform to their ways..... they don't, because they're not, therefore the argument is void of any real end in sight.

The only thing that can come from this is who can argue their point better then the other..... because they can argue their point better, doesn't make them right, however.

[The_Genius]

Quote by: Praxius This is why I was keeping out of this until things started to flow from both sides. I remember a month ago or so, I got into an argument with someone from the US about their conduct in Afghanistan, Iraq and the current government in the US...... it ended up pretty much how this is starting.... before I knew it I had people from the US bitching about the faults of Canada, and vise versa..... the problem was, that the people from the US in question were trying to pull facts out of their arse, before they knew what they were talking about..... I wasn't trying to say my country was better, nor trying to bash the US or it's citizens. Constructive criticism can sometimes be taking the wrong way, it seems. It's the whole "My country is better then your's" mentality, that neither side can win, because if one country was truly better then another in all aspects that truly mattered, then you'd think all other countries would follow suit and conform to their ways..... they don't, because they're not, therefore the argument is void of any real end in sight. The only thing that can come from this is who can argue their point better then the other..... because they can argue their point better, doesn't make them right, however.

I don't live in Saudi Arabia or USA... I was just refuting STW..

[Paleface2500]

[quote=StrongHeartsWin;322521]My position in the debate is yes. I posit that certain rights should not stop at borders and that those rights must be equal amongst those within the border of any country. I suggest that Islamic law, which springs from Islam and the Koran, adopted by the Saudi government, is what mostly influences the violation these fundemental rights and makes Saudi Arabia a place where the ability to attain happiness is not equally available to all within its borders.[quote]

It does not matter what you or I think. If these people chose to call Saudi Arabia their home, fine.